Devil May Cry [PS2] + R2VKMF: Polygonal Action Daishingeki

[Air Master Burst]

The only major flaw with MGR is lack of true weapon swap. But again, having to muck around in menus for things you should be able to switch on-the-fly is a Metal Gear staple.

I think only MGS3 has ridiculous menu-mucking, although I admit my brain has blocked out a lot of my single launch-weekend playthrough of MGS4 for the sake of my fragile psyche.

Vanquish is a goddamned masterpiece. If you liked MGR you should check it out.

[BIL]

Vanquish is a goddamned masterpiece. If you liked MGR you should check it out.

Can confirm! I've been meaning to GIF up a whole bunch of clips from the Normal playthrough I did a month or so back; just been monopolised by the similarly life-affirming GNG Resurrection. So I'll just post one of them, my beloved Shotgun Melee, aka Thermonuclear Charge-Shot Bitch-Slap:

EAT IT YOU MOTHERFUCKER (｀w´メ)

Spoiler

EAT THESE TOO (｀w´メ)

Spoiler

When I realised the Shotgun was DOOM II SSG-powerful, ho mayne...

I was mulling over whether to start a TPS thread, modeled after twiddle's auld classic; but frankly, while it borrows the basic vocabulary of that subgenre, Vanquish is so firmly entrenched in the realm of prestige-performance, balls-to-the-wall hardcore killing ala DMC, it's more than apropos here. It's fucking amazing. Also I owned it for like twelve years before playing it, but when I finally did, I was coming day and night! So never assume it's too late lads! ;3

My only wish was a few more human enemies, for a truly reciprocal meatgrinder aesthetic - but then, SHTF, and suddenly I was quite sated. Also, ala Gunstar, the bots are wonderfully characterful. Had a minor headcanon, that they might be some godawful man/machine mashups, ala Robocop 2's nightmarish failed protos... a particular homie's combination of hapless scurrying with a terrifying bestial instakill was great

Roo your GameFAQs posts re: God Hard are superb btw! I'm gonna clear out the ladder methodically, when I eventually return, but it was excellent getting an arcade veteran's POV of the difficulty!

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I didn't even remember what I wrote, haha. But yeah, Vanquish is great. It has little in the way of unlockables so replaying it is generally more of the same except harder compared to some other Platinum titles, but the content that's there is top notch stuff. The challenge missions are a lot of fun too.

Shotgun's a blast to play with. Very satisfying stuff and there's numerous folks on Youtube who've been working on Shotgun only playthroughs for the sake of the challenge.

Some stuff that might interest you from Zaarock who's a master at it:

Advanced Tech Guide
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi1ssJnUxvo

God Hard playthrough with commentary (hosted by STGWeekly)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsoEeY6J9NU

[BIL]

Excellent, I remember now ZAA was huge into this too. Yeah, I was delighted at how compact and arcadey it is; just a smorgasbord of high-performance tactical ultraviolence from end to end, with replay emphasising mastery of a tight toolkit over expanding unlocks. ala Alien Soldier, it's the kind of pace and technical intensity where brief interludes actually feel warranted, rather than obtrusive. That's before even considering the Mission mode!

I hope the "PLAY SHUMPS ONLY / DELETE OT" lads have grown up a bit. I know what STGs and other arcade staples are good, bros! It's everything else where I look for this community's approval! If something's getting superplays here, that's a recommendation worth a hundred million lamestream opinions.

[Sima Tuna]

Vanquish is a goddamned masterpiece. If you liked MGR you should check it out.

I played it probably 15 years ago and I don't know why I didn't like it at the time. Haven't touched it since. I'll have to go back eventually and see what my problem was with the game. Probably just "lol dumb kid opinions."

I do like Max Anarchy quite a bit. I forgot to mention that game in my list of Platinum titles I like. The big "but" with that game is, "I like it a lot, BUT it would have been a much better game if Platinum had focused on robust single-player content, instead of chasing a dream of multiplayer live service that was never going to happen." There are tons of playable characters in Max Anarchy, with their own unique gameplay systems to differentiate them. And yet, only two of the playable cast have single player campaigns. If you play multi, you have loads of options to suit any preference. Play single player? Enjoy Max or Not-Raiden.

I know you can set up bot matches in single play (which is what I did,) but it's not very fun and a poor substitute for single player levels. As far as I know, there is no option to play the story campaigns with other characters. Shame, because Max Anarchy has one of my favorite Platinum combat systems. It feels very similar to God Hand in the best ways.

[Lander]

I've heard good things about Wanted: Dead. It might end up another RE6 situation (where I convinced myself the game would be secretly good, then played it for myself and thought it was shit.) But Mark likes the game, for whatever that's worth. The way I figure it, Wanted Dead will be a bargain bin game before long and then I can try it for a cheap price. It'll be worth it for a twenty or so, considering how rarely any character action games come out.

For fear of damning with faint praise, it feels kind of like a Deadly Premonition situation; an overt joke on the surface that'll likely bounce most straightforward players, but with something to appreciate if you go in ready to meet in the middle and enjoy all the weird nonsense while picking through the character progression.

Funnily enough, I had an inverse experience with RE6 - I learned about the tech and went straight to considering Mercs / No Mercy a resouding success, only to play the campaign and find it shit anyway. Terrible shame to waste such good systems.

Platinum just really come across as kinda schizo to me. They introduce all these "hey look over at this shiny thing" minigames and gimmicks to their titles that never feel or work as well as the core gameplay.

Yeah, I can give them a little credit for making their minigames a decently polished five minutes of fun, but the frequency with which they show up in ranked sections rather than simply being a fun pace-change is quite off-putting.

The company's been extremely hit or miss for me lately. Between the massive spottiness of Bayonetta 3, the clumsy slog of Astral Chain, the joke that is Babylon's Fall, and the titles that just don't interest me like W101 and World of Demons, I'm just not super into Platinum anymore.

Aye, the sad truth. I miss the days when each of their games had a really distinct feel (i.e. the aforementioned holy trinity) rather than gradually enumerating all the known 'platinum mechanics' and finding various ways to fit them into different progression systems around a new core. Unlocking the Third Strike parry in Bayo was hella sweet, but it's worn thin after showing up in most every title since.

Vanquish is a goddamned masterpiece.

Vanquish is the robo-bee's articulated knees for sure. Max Payne by way of clean oorah futurism.

Such a shame it never got a sequel - while already very solid, I always felt the TPS side of it could have stood to let the character action part have a bit more of the duvet, what with the harsh cooldown penalty tied to the flashier melee moves.
There's plenty of depth built around that of course, what with things like melee cancels, boostrolling and judicious upgrade abuse, but imagine what a few years of in-universe R&D could have done to that prototype ARS suit.

TURN OFF THE GODDAMN LIMITERS

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Such a shame it never got a sequel - while already very solid, I always felt the TPS side of it could have stood to let the character action part have a bit more of the duvet, what with the harsh cooldown penalty tied to the flashier melee moves.]

I'm not sure I would have changed the melee for the main game; it's incredibly powerful and removing the cooldown penalty would mean you'd basically want to boost around punching everything as your primary means of attack, which obviously wasn't quite the design they had in mind! But I agree that a no melee cooldown mode would have been a FANTASTIC unlockable option to replay the game with, and would have been crazy fun to experiment with.

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

Vanquish is absolutely stellar. Platinum never really managed to match the supreme quality of their opening one-two - Bayonetta and Vanquish are tough to beat - but they did come close with Wonderful 101, and I'm generally a fan of their output besides.

My brief thoughts on their lineup:

Spoiler

Madworld - Style over substance, but it is really cool style at least. Action totally lacks depth.
Bayonetta - One of the best character action games.
Vanquish - One of the best third-person shooters.
Anarchy Reigns - This game's multiplayer was really fun while it was active. The single-player campaign, largely just a vs. bots affair, is pretty decent.
Metal Gear Rising - Overall great, with amazing presentational flourishes, but its combat is kind of simplistic versus genre greats and it has some rough edges.
The Wonderful 101 - Brilliant, unique take on the genre even though it can be a bit overstuffed at times, and lacks the immediacy of Bayo or DMC.
Bayonetta 2 - Too streamlined versus the original; still a solid game but it scrubs too much nuance out to be excellent.
The Legend of Korra - A small, budget game, but I think it has pretty solid combat and some alright enemies. I'd rate it over Madworld, or Anarchy Reigns' single-player.
Transformers Devastation - Great-feeling mechanics, though it leans a bit too hard into Bayo's cancel-everything-into-everything safety. Strains against its budget very awkwardly.
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Mutants in Manhattan - Total junk even in co-op.
Nier: Automata - Cool vibes and scenario and an all-timer soundtrack. Very cool game overall, but its combat isn't more than just vaguely passable.
Astral Chain - Has a lot of interesting and unique ideas but I didn't like the execution: visibility and readability on enemy animations are awful. Maybe better than I give it credit for.
Sol Cresta, Bayonetta 3, Bayonetta Origins - haven't played, but I need to sometime.

I have been playing a lot of (the original) RE4 lately, which does have me wanting to go fire up Vanquish again. (Between that, Vanquish, and God Hand - and to a slightly lesser extent, Evil Within and Resident Evil's remake, Mikami is surely one of the great masters of gaming.) I'd agree that Vanquish is even stronger than that game due to its greater depth, complexity, and intensity - which is high praise, because of course RE4 is an all-time classic - but I would also say that Vanquish is very much a game you have to reach for the fun in. Its enemies aren't aggressive enough to force you out of a defensive playstyle, and if you aren't making some effort to work out how best to smash through enemy lines with efficiency - and how to make the most out of the game's various weapons, which are extremely flexible but whose uses are not always immediately obvious - it can feel a bit lacking.

Basically it's not as immediately obvious what's good about the game as it is in RE4, for comparison. That game is a lot simpler, but any player of any skill level will get through it having had to develop and engage with a wide variety of tactics, since its less robust mechanics are easier to build varied encounter design around. But you couldn't reasonably test a player with the same (relative) rigor over a breadth of situations in Vanquish, since the game's higher skill ceiling and complexity would make that a potentially-unreasonable tall order for a lot of casual players. So it ends up naturally being vulnerable to less interesting defensive tactics, as you often see in a lot of the better character action games - which is to say, all the junk I just said isn't much of a barrier for any arcade-minded gamer.

[Volteccer_Jack]

Astral Chain

Ranking action games purely by the quality of their combat mechanics, Astral Chain goes in the absolute highest tier. Complain about the detective junk or the absurd scoring as much as you want, but if you don't think the combat is top shelf then you need to lay off the sauce, get your eyes and ears checked, and maybe git gud just to be safe.

And like I always tell people, as soon as you finish the story, you unlock 70 challenge missions of pure combat and nothing else.

Vanquish

The only Clover/Plat game that I can comfortably say is better than Astral Chain, mostly because Vanquish has the best pacing and difficulty in the genre. And since it got blasted by critics precisely for having good pacing, we can assume Platinum won't make that mistake again.

And viable combo strings being reduced to some subset on higher difficulties is nothing new - I suppose RE provides a few more options given its breadth, but similarly boils down to favouring whichever moves give you a tactical delimb or other useful property.

That's what makes it such a phenomenal game. In Razor's Edge viable combo strings aren't reduced to some subset on higher difficulties. Damn near every move has useful properties, which is pretty incredible given that it takes about 50 seconds (yes really, I checked) to scroll through one weapon's movelist.

Optimizing your gameplay for more power gain was was always a factor on account of combo / ET / UT essence bonuses, particularly on higher difficulties where you want to rush the top-level moveset for a viable weapon

Weapon upgrades are really cheap in NGB/2. In vanilla NG2 you can buy the level 2 Dragon Sword at the literal first shop you see without even trying to get essence, and the level 3 is not much more expensive nor is it so vital that you can't wait to buy it at your leisure. I never needed to worry about it at all, let alone make hard decisions about which upgrade to purchase.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

And like I always tell people, as soon as you finish the story, you unlock 70 challenge missions of pure combat and nothing else.

I'm sold. I always figured Astral Chain can't be all that bad because it has dodge offsetting, and that's pretty damn fun, but I've heard numerous complaints about the game not being as fun because it tries to do a lot of different things, but if the core is solid combat and it has pure combat to offer, it can't be that bad.

Bayo 1's secret chapter (which sadly many miss) is 51 fights of pure combat and I've sunk as much if not more time into that than the story mode. If Astral Chain's got anything like that it'll be fun.

[Sima Tuna]

The concept of the stand battles in Astral Chain doesn't really appeal to me. I've always preferred action games where I'm the lone hero fighting waves of enemies with JUST MAH FISTS AND MAH ROCK HARD CAWK.

With character action games, I accept the concession that most of them will force me to use weapons. But I still prefer when I can equip fists or a fist-like weapon (Beowulf in DMC3, pistols in Bayo, Claws in NG2) and go to town. Standing back while my stand does shit sounds boring. I may be wrong. I heard Bayo 3 had demon summoning and I said "no thanks" to that too.

Is there any hope for future character action games, do you think? It feels to me like most of the development of these have tapered off. Not that there were ever a ton of them. Platinum, Capcom and Team Ninja, mostly. Team Ninja have been verging into pseudo-soulslike territory for a while. I loved Nioh 1 but I'm ready for them to go back to pure action games. Modern Capcom, who even knows with them. DMC5 was a big hit so I guess they might make more of those. Eventually. I don't know how well Bayo 3 sold. Opinions on it were pretty split, but even those in the "for" camp said it's a shame the company is shackled to hardware as underpowered as the Switch. I wonder if the limitations of that console are making it hard for them to design the kinds of games they'd like to. Itagaki from Team Ninja is retired now. Suda has some interesting ideas but I've yet to play a Suda game where I felt gameplay was deep/solid enough to count it firmly in "character action."

There have been some interesting rumblings in the indie scene, with games like Assault Spy. But due to the complicated nature of these titles (being largely 3d) and the fairly small target market (most gamers prefer easy games to hard games nowadays,) I wonder if the indie scene can really replace AA or AAA developers. The popularity of indie metroidvania development is easy to understand. The games are relatively simple to create and have mass market appeal with normies. There are 2d character action games out there (I've heard Icey is one, and the Mega Man Zero games are sort of a borderline case,) but I haven't seen too many of those.

[Air Master Burst]

Is there any hope for future character action games, do you think?

I mean, we'll get DMC6 at some point.

Maybe if we get really lucky From can remaster Otogi already. Or motherfucking NINJA BLADE!

Not that there were ever a ton of them.

My old PS2 collection strongly disagrees with this statement. There were a ton! The first page of this thread has a couple dozen at least, and that's not even getting into all the mediocre stuff like Blood Will Tell or the twelve dozen other jank ass samurai games from the early-mid 00s.

Hell, they even put one as a minigame in MGS3! (RIP Guy Savage from the remasters)

ETA:

There are 2d character action games out there (I've heard Icey is one, and the Mega Man Zero games are sort of a borderline case,) but I haven't seen too many of those.

Pretty much any juggle-heavy side scroller with a combo counter would apply here. I'm thinking stuff like Muramasa, Spyro: Eternal Night GBA, and Viewtiful Joe.

[BIL]

Hell, they even put one as a minigame in MGS3! (RIP Guy Savage from the remasters)

That Garou Freeman-esque body shredder lives in my goddamn subconsciousness. The windup and *BOOM* release is superlatively gratifying, leaving those beefy ghouls in hanging ribbons. Nothing even remotely as cool as that in either of the actual PS2 Castlevanias. Shoulda been Cornell mkII tbh.

What an inimitably Kojima surprise, too. I screwed up the instakill at the end of the Sorrow fight, itself quite batshit (ghost bro and his ghost vulture homie, two steps below me on food chain: "YOU ATE ME!" Oh yeah, I guess I did ). When I reloaded, straight into Cold WarWolf vs Red Zombie Army, I pondered if this was some kind of curse; like it was eventually gonna white-flash to Literal Naked Snake, covered in gore in a sewer full of eviscerated guards.

[Air Master Burst]

Hell, they even put one as a minigame in MGS3! (RIP Guy Savage from the remasters)

That Garou Freeman-esque body shredder lives in my goddamn subconsciousness. The windup and *BOOM* release is superlatively gratifying, leaving those beefy ghouls in hanging ribbons. Nothing even remotely as cool as that in either of the actual PS2 Castlevanias. Shoulda been Cornell mkII tbh.

What an inimitably Kojima surprise, too. I screwed up the instakill at the end of the Sorrow fight, itself quite batshit (ghost bro and his ghost vulture homie, two steps below me on food chain: "YOU ATE ME!" Oh yeah, I guess I did ). When I reloaded, straight into Cold WarWolf vs Red Zombie Army, I pondered if this was some kind of curse; like it was eventually gonna white-flash to Literal Naked Snake, covered in gore in a sewer full of eviscerated guards.

Apparently Kojima originally wanted to just use a stage from Gradius for the nightmare; and while I adore Gradius, Guy Savage was a much better choice.

I really wish MGS3 was in any way tolerable to actually play in this day and age, because it has so many fun ideas.

[Lander]

I'm not sure I would have changed the melee for the main game; it's incredibly powerful and removing the cooldown penalty would mean you'd basically want to boost around punching everything as your primary means of attack, which obviously wasn't quite the design they had in mind! But I agree that a no melee cooldown mode would have been a FANTASTIC unlockable option to replay the game with, and would have been crazy fun to experiment with.

I definitely wouldn't want it to fully displace shooting, since that's a big part of what defines Vanquish. The super costume setup would be pretty intuitive, since that's what I was crossing my fingers for during the initial credits roll, but I think there are other more integrated ways you could do it.

For instance, the overheat setup incentivizes you to spend the whole meter on boosting and slowdown before popping a big melee and retreating to safety to recharge. You could double down on that and add a mode that gives you meter * seconds worth of super state, but results in a harsher penalty once bottomed out. Potentially multiple overlappable super states with stacking penalties given that bullet time and big punches are both possible meter spends.

And / or an MGR-style reciprocal mechanic that allows meter to be forcefully regained during overheat via some player risk, i.e. grabbing stuff from dead enemies. I guess you could also extract it by hand like Raiden, but that's kind of overdone and would introduce more melee to the defensive phase so probably isn't desirable.

The concept of the stand battles in Astral Chain doesn't really appeal to me. I've always preferred action games where I'm the lone hero fighting waves of enemies with JUST MAH FISTS AND MAH ROCK HARD CAWK.

I'm still waiting on a Metal Gear-style CQC character action game. Turn all the cutscenes where Snake brings grapples to a gunfight into a movelist, throw it into a blender with RE6-ish duck-dive-dodge locomotion, toss in some Guns of the Patriots nonesense so working firearms are equivalent to rare beltscroller pickups, and presto. New sub-subgenre and instant classic.

[Air Master Burst]

I'm still waiting on a Metal Gear-style CQC character action game. Turn all the cutscenes where Snake brings grapples to a gunfight into a movelist, throw it into a blender with RE6-ish duck-dive-dodge locomotion, toss in some Guns of the Patriots nonesense so working firearms are equivalent to rare beltscroller pickups, and presto. New sub-subgenre and instant classic.

The closest thing we currently have to that is probably Mirror's Edge, or maybe Urban Reign.

ETA: Fights in Tight Spaces is almost exactly this but in deckbuilder form and it totally fucking rules.

[Sima Tuna]

The concept of the stand battles in Astral Chain doesn't really appeal to me. I've always preferred action games where I'm the lone hero fighting waves of enemies with JUST MAH FISTS AND MAH ROCK HARD CAWK.

I'm still waiting on a Metal Gear-style CQC character action game. Turn all the cutscenes where Snake brings grapples to a gunfight into a movelist, throw it into a blender with RE6-ish duck-dive-dodge locomotion, toss in some Guns of the Patriots nonesense so working firearms are equivalent to rare beltscroller pickups, and presto. New sub-subgenre and instant classic.

There are these CQC scenes in MGS and in certain movies, where a dude knocks the gun out of someone's hand and field-strips it right there, while he's fighting. I think The Boss does that shit.

I would love to see this concept integrated into a 3d beat em up. Allow guns in your game but make them primarily a tool enemies use which you have to overcome. One strat in Streets of Rage 2 is to throw weapons offscreen specifically so Donovan, Fog and certain bosses can't pick them up. Maybe the main character of the game has sworn off killing a la Batman. Or maybe he/she is a terrible shot.

It wasn't a terrible idea MGS4 had, where weapons were keyed to the DNA of the user so they couldn't be used by Snake. Firearm locks are becoming smarter all the time. We're not too far off from that reality and it would give an excuse for a beat em up/character action game where the enemies can use guns but you cannot.

Urban Reign is a sweet game btw.

[BIL]

There are these CQC scenes in MGS and in certain movies, where a dude knocks the gun out of someone's hand and field-strips it right there, while he's fighting. I think The Boss does that shit.

Yeah, Ocelot even remarks, after getting his ass Disarmed and Beaten™ by Snake earlier on, and having made sure to put a ravine between them for the rematch, "No more judo! No more field strips!" Then the Boss slaps the living piss out of him. 3;

[Sima Tuna]

I decided to play a bit more of Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2 this evening. I figured, "Hey, since I own this Collection, I might as well play more of it."

Holy hell. I think Chapter 4 might be one of the worst missions I have ever played in any game. And I know I beat this mission in base NG2 and it wasn't this awful. The Statue of Liberty Boss is even worse than I'd heard. A completely incomprehensible mess. The sequence of events for how to damage this boss is bizarre. And the final (REQUIRED) QTE demands you stand in a very specific spot and hit a specific button (this information is never conveyed to the player and you do not get any context-sensitive pop-ups or feedback when you do the right thing.) If you fail to get to the required position in time, the boss regains a shitload of its health and goes back into its normal attack cycle.

You can only damage the boss in 3 total points on its body. 2 of those points become fully invulnerable halfway through the fight. This information is not conveyed to the player. Nor is the location you should attack next ever told to you, or how you should attack it.

This fight comes directly after a Four Fiend boss fight. You are not provided any save point or recovery. I defeated Alexei rather easily, but then wasted all my healing items trying desperately to puzzle out what the game fucking wanted me to do to kill this horrible boss.

My reward for finishing this boss was being plunged into a mandatory character change to a character with a slow weapon I don't want to learn to use. I made it to the mid-boss, who killed me. At which point I learned there are no save points before the midboss in chapter 5. Unlike in some other chapters, the game also will not allow you to retry directly at the boss fight. Momiji starts with a single healing item, so have fun learning midboss patterns with no save and no healing. Die and you do the entire rather lengthy series of combat arenas back up to that boss.

I turned the shit off, man. I will go back to it, but seriously Fuck Sigma 2. Black is a masterpiece. Sigma 1 is fantastic too. Yeah, the Rachel shit sucks in Sigma 1, but at least the Gamov fight isn't the very first thing you do when taking control over a new character. I'm sure Sigma 2 gets better after this because... How could it not? But the beginning of Sigma 2 has been absolutely front-loaded with some of the worst bosses I've seen in a character action game. ALL of which were added for Sigma 2. I'm talking mostly about the three statue fights.

If you were playing the base game, your boss progression would go Rasetsu (easy but fun,) Genshin (awesome,) Megadeath (shit), Godomas (meh) and Alexei (fun.) Sigma 2 boss progression is Rasetsu, Statue, Statue, Genshin, Megadeath, Godomas, Alexei, Statue. And then a forced character change to a fresh character replaying an old stage.

Combine this with the other amazing qualities of Sigma 2, which include reduced gore, increased enemy health, reduced mob density, no explosive kunai, a totally reworked subweapon system, nothing to spend your money on, forced upgrade stations... Dear god, this is such a downgrade. Whoever was trying to "fix" NG2 at Team Ninja after Itagaki left didn't understand what they were doing. It's debatable if any of their changes improved the game.

[Lander]

Mid-campaign character changes in mechanically complex action games are a cancer on the genre, and any developer wilfully committing them should be tarred, feathed, and led through the streets as an example.

As a moveset in her own right (mostly remembered from Black) I actually quite enjoy Rachel. She's got some interesting grapple-bruiser stuff going on, but is immediately sent out to die because nobody wants to have their muscle memory toppled partway through a game.

I maintain that the only way to do multi-character right is to give each one their own parallel campaign, RE2 style.
Ironically, DMC4's Nero -> Dante setup is probably the least offensive example despite being poster boy, since structurally it resembles two half campaigns until the very end.

[Air Master Burst]

I maintain that the only way to do multi-character right is to give each one their own parallel campaign, RE2 style.
Ironically, DMC4's Nero -> Dante setup is probably the least offensive example despite being poster boy, since structurally it resembles two half campaigns until the very end.

Thia is mostly true but I will also accept MVC style mid-combo hot swapping. I don't know if any good character action games actually allow this, it usually seems to come up in musou games instead.

I really want a character action game desinged around this now, with flashy assists and enemy attacks that force your active character out for a bit.

[Lander]

Thia is mostly true but I will also accept MVC style mid-combo hot swapping. I don't know if any good character action games actually allow this, it usually seems to come up in musou games instead.

I really want a character action game desinged around this now, with flashy assists and enemy attacks that force your active character out for a bit.

Yeah, tag would be a cool solution. Probably more practicable from the modern development standpoint as well, much as I wish that wasn't a concern.

As it happens, I stumbled across the recently-kickstarted Genokids while browsing around earlier, which looks like it fits the bill for Tag Character Action.
It's got a good deal of style despite the anime trappings (ugh, this voice actress again? ) and looks quite mechanically solid for an indie offering.

There's also Serpentiem's DDMK reverse-engineering of DMC1-4, which adds character switching on top of various other goodies.
Really cool project; dude moved mountains of assembler and rewrote huge chunks of 3 to make it all work.

[Air Master Burst]

As it happens, I stumbled across the recently-kickstarted Genokids while browsing around earlier, which looks like it fits the bill for Tag Character Action.
It's got a good deal of style despite the anime trappings (ugh, this voice actress again? ) and looks quite mechanically solid for an indie offering.

Oh snap this looks about perfect, might back this if the demo is tight.

[Lander]

From what I hear, the KS is thriving - seems that they tried and failed a couple of years back, and got lucky enough to catch the post Hi-Fi Rush wave after polishing it up and regrouping for a second shot.

Oh yeah, and I remembered Spark the Electric Jester 3 has tag-ish stuff. Though it's more Character Action-aspirant than anything, since the combat is mostly flash over substance, and stopping to punch things is orthogonal to the Boost Sonic subgenre.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Mid-campaign character changes in mechanically complex action games are a cancer on the genre, and any developer wilfully committing them should be tarred, feathed, and led through the streets as an example.

I maintain that the only way to do multi-character right is to give each one their own parallel campaign, RE2 style.

I disagree, but with a caveat. I think for narrative purposes it's not unforgivable to necessarily have you play different characters over the course of a campaign, but New Game+ has to include an option where you can play the entire campaign as the character of your choosing, even during the parts that character's not supposed to be around. That way you only have to deal with it for the storyline on your first playthrough, and can play whoever you want whenever you want for subsequent runs.

The second Zelda Musou game (based on BotW) is sadly inconsistent about this. The first time you play a story battle you're forced to use specific characters and are limited in who you can use, but replaying the battle allows you to play as any character, usually. There's still some unfortunate restrictions, mainly for Zelda herself who is still directly barred from being playable in several story missions even when replaying them after completion. Ah well.

This is mostly true but I will also accept MVC style mid-combo hot swapping. I don't know if any good character action games actually allow this

I can actually think of an action RPG example of this. Tales of Destiny R (the PS2 remake) allows you to play in solo mode in New Game+ and you can actually freely swap between all 4 character slots mid battle. You could also use them for expanded movesets by equipping 3 of them with the accessories that allow you to have duplicates of the same character in battle, so you can use them as 4 copies of the same characters, just with different moves hotkeyed. Example footage:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdaWWEo9Hzc&t=334

[Sima Tuna]

Now that the dust has settled on Bayonetta 3, does the thread have a verdict?

I know the story is complete trash. The internet was all up in arms about that. I honestly don't care about bayo's story because it's always been trash and the characters all sucked aside from Bayo herself, Rodin and maaaaybe Jeanne. I don't care if the story betrays the deep lore and bayo dies 1000x or whatever the hell.

What I care about is whether or not the demon slave shit makes bayo's combat better or worse. I've heard it both ways. I've heard it cheapens combat because you just summon for the entire game and summons are OP. I've also heard that it opens a new dimension to gameplay and the weapons are as deep as ever.

Performance definitely appears sub-par on switch but ayyy lmao that's just switch life at this point. Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2 looks like a ps1 game at times when I play handheld. Wonderful 101 has got that variable 31-55 framerate going on. Not sure what's up with the green toothpaste enemy designs in bayo 3 though. Didn't anyone tell Kamiya during testing that glowing green enemies look a bit ass?

I'm open to picking this one up once it goes on a sale. As it inevitably will, due to relatively harsh fan backlash. I do like Bayo's core combat and the demon transformations seem rather fun. Dunno about full-on demon summoning. I was hoping the thread could enlighten me on that point.

Wonderful 101 is going really rough. Everything about playing this game feels wrong to me. I'm going to assume it's user error, because my first instinct is to go full DSP and blame the game. "Oh mah gawd the game is laggy! I pressed BLAWK! WHAT THE FUCK DOOD" And then I flail my arms as poor Wonder Red eats a cannonball to the face. The mobility feels really bad in this game compared to other PAD titles I've played. Standard movement feels slow. Enemy attacks track. Maybe I need to be holding the dash button all the time? I want to use the Spring but it uses up my power bar really fast. So I assume I need to save that for dodging only. The block timing is both lenient and harsh-I can't get the hang of it and inevitably block too early or too late. Or I block and then try to punish, but an enemy I could barely see (or couldn't see) on the edge of the screen homes in on me and hits me.

All of this is probably my fault, for sure. But it hasn't been a whole lot of fun so far. I remember the first time played ninja gaiden or god hand. I got my ass kicked, but it was fun. So whatever the secret sauce is that makes wonderful 101 enjoyable, I haven't encountered it yet.

[Volteccer_Jack]

Team Ninja have been verging into pseudo-soulslike territory for a while.

I recommend giving Stranger of Paradise a try. It's an action game first and everything else a distant second. There's even a button to optimize your equipment so you can completely ignore all the lootspam.

What I care about is whether or not the demon slave shit makes bayo's combat better or worse. I've heard it both ways. I've heard it cheapens combat because you just summon for the entire game and summons are OP. I've also heard that it opens a new dimension to gameplay and the weapons are as deep as ever.

Both are true. It's got way more mechanical depth than either of the first two games. However, it's one of the easiest 3D action games to "cheese" so people who like to whine about that will have plenty of room to do so. As I've said before, I'm in the camp that there hasn't been a 3D action game made yet that can't be cheesed to hell, and meeting these games halfway is part and parcel of the genre.

I do like Bayo's core combat and the demon transformations seem rather fun. Dunno about full-on demon summoning. I was hoping the thread could enlighten me on that point.

Demon transformations are pretty inconsequential tbh. They replace Panther/Crow Within and have unique properties for each weapon such as hovering or higher jumps. Bayo will also transform for some Wicked Weaves.

Demon summoning is the big game-changer mechanic. Bayo's combo finishers get a flash at a certain point in the animation, pressing the summon button timed to that flash with call up the demon for an extra big hit. When about to be hit by an attack you can summon your demon as a parry. Holding the summon button gives you direct control of the demon, which has its own movelist and abilities. If a demon takes too much damage it goes berserk and attacks everything including Bayo. If a demon dies then it goes on cooldown for a while. Several bosses have special attacks that instakill a demon if they hit. Bayo's magic gauge is now used solely for demons, draining while a demon is summoned and refilling otherwise. Bayo cannot move or defend herself while summoning a demon. Releasing the summon button gives you back control of Bayo but also immediately unsummons the demon. There's a trick though; the demon will always finish their current action before disappearing. So you can give the demon an order, release the summon button to allow Bayo to act, then quickly press down the summon button again to resume control of the demon.

The other controversial thing is new character Viola. She gets only one weapon and one demon. Her demon is tied to her weapon, so she switches to fists while it is summoned. She can't directly control her demon, instead it is tethered to the spot it was summoned at and attacks any enemies it can reach. Viola doesn't get witch time from dodges, instead she has to perfect block with her sword to activate witch time, and she can't block at all unless she is holding her sword. She is significantly weaker than Bayo, and correspondingly faces weaker enemies. I hated Viola at first, but she grew on me very quickly. She has a distinctly different style of play, while still fitting comfortably in a Bayonetta game.

[Lander]

I disagree, but with a caveat. I think for narrative purposes it's not unforgivable to necessarily have you play different characters over the course of a campaign, but New Game+ has to include an option where you can play the entire campaign as the character of your choosing, even during the parts that character's not supposed to be around. That way you only have to deal with it for the storyline on your first playthrough, and can play whoever you want whenever you want for subsequent runs.

My issue with those situations is that narrative takes hard-left precedence over mechanical pacing, so unless you're looking at a Bayo / Jeanne / Rosa proposal where the difference is subtle or nonexistent, it acts as a soft reset and forces the player to relearn just as they're hitting stride.
Even after the fact with some domain knowledge, having to slog through V's sections of DMCV makes a replay less appealing despite having some of the series' best combat and character moments.

Though yeah, I think making the full Character * Stage ranking matrix available for post-game play should absolutely be baseline, even if it involves turning off character-specific setpieces and introducing immersion-breaking floating platforms, i.e. so Dante can get past a Grim Grip sequence.
DMC4 was particularly silly in that respect, since they more than doubled the character count in Special Edition, but stuck doggedly to bisecting the campaign for everyone but Vergil...

Now that the dust has settled on Bayonetta 3, does the thread have a verdict?

Bah. So much for being able to close my tab, walk away, and do productive things today

I know the story is complete trash. The internet was all up in arms about that. I honestly don't care about bayo's story because it's always been trash and the characters all sucked aside from Bayo herself, Rodin and maaaaybe Jeanne. I don't care if the story betrays the deep lore and bayo dies 1000x or whatever the hell.

Even throwing the content of the story out the window, the way it's told is rubbish compared to the first two. I went back to replay B2 to make sure I wasn't rocking nostalgia goggles, and nah, the presentation and overall level of cohesion is absolutely night and day.
It's as if they took a minimum-viable approach this time, ensuring that the boxes that define a Bayo game are checked on paper, but without the all-important between-the-lines polish that makes an exemplary stylish action game.

What I care about is whether or not the demon slave shit makes bayo's combat better or worse. I've heard it both ways. I've heard it cheapens combat because you just summon for the entire game and summons are OP. I've also heard that it opens a new dimension to gameplay and the weapons are as deep as ever.

Combat wise, it's a mixed bag. The weapons themselves are tight aside from a couple of small-but-tangible regressions to series staples, and there are tons of them, but they took some cues from Astral Chain's crap RPG unlock progression and split the previously-core moves like Stiletto into duplicated per-weapon upgrades, which makes unsatisfying busywork of the unlock process.
Masquerade is neat I guess, but ultimately amounts to deviantart bait, super moves, and traversal gimmicks.

The demon slave stuff is interesting, but confuses the combat - there's a degree of weaving big-bang summons into your regular combos, which is cool, but it feels more like a big toybox than something that comes together into a system whose elements truly compliment one another.
It acts as an optional win button for smaller encounters, and tends to take center stage over regular moves in the larger ones. Jack's point about cheese is fair, but the erosion of challenge is more codified here than in most action titles.
Should have been its own thing that wasn't weighed down by the need to also be Bayo, since it nails neither despite showcasing potential.

And Viola sucks. She's a try-hard comic relief jobber from start to finish, yet the game treats her like the newtype who's going to replace all the boring old characters in Season 4. The walking, talking, quipping avatar of "we have a product for you oldheads, it's called Bayo 1+2".
Cheshire brings some fun yuks to proceedings, but supports a core character moveset that is actively at odds with itself and tends toward scrabbling up meter so the big galumpher can smash everything.
I hear they patched in a more forgiving parry window at some point, but that's neither here nor there given that we're looking at a borderline-DMC2 'just forget it' situation

Performance definitely appears sub-par on switch but ayyy lmao that's just switch life at this point. Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2 looks like a ps1 game at times when I play handheld. Wonderful 101 has got that variable 31-55 framerate going on. Not sure what's up with the green toothpaste enemy designs in bayo 3 though. Didn't anyone tell Kamiya during testing that glowing green enemies look a bit ass?

The level and enemy design is, for the most part, godawful. I would have considered that a harsh appraisal during my initial run, but feel it's quite fair after having my jaw hit the floor while revisiting Vigrid and its denizens.
3 has big pop-offs, but nothing that comes close to elegant design of the first two. The green cummies never get interesting, and the world is a victim of its own initial aspirations to more open structure.

You can really feel the back-down from attempting to make open-world bayo, because the areas tend to be massive, empty, limp-wristedly photoreal, and covered in RETURN TO THE BATTLEFIELD mist that both looks crap and acts as an obnoxious new evolution of the much-maligned invisible wall.
They should have stuck to their guns and made Super Bayonetta Odyssey tbh, since that would at least have justified the regressions.

In Short: It's Kamiya's Ninja Gaiden 3.2.
A thematically comparable feat of cratering a beloved series, with gameplay that doesn't need a proverbial Razor's Edge to fix it up, but is conversely too flawed to hold a similar pedigree when viewed through the lens of pure action.

(And don't even get me started on Bayonetta Origins. The hidden demo already felt like cynical 'Platinum wants to make a feelsy indie' pitch material on first blush, and only reinforces the New Coke scenario now it's been revealed and released in full. I fear P* have forgotten their own recipe at this point.)

Wonderful 101 is going really rough. Everything about playing this game feels wrong to me. I'm going to assume it's user error, because my first instinct is to go full DSP and blame the game. "Oh mah gawd the game is laggy! I pressed BLAWK! WHAT THE FUCK DOOD" And then I flail my arms as poor Wonder Red eats a cannonball to the face. The mobility feels really bad in this game compared to other PAD titles I've played. Standard movement feels slow. Enemy attacks track. Maybe I need to be holding the dash button all the time? I want to use the Spring but it uses up my power bar really fast. So I assume I need to save that for dodging only. The block timing is both lenient and harsh-I can't get the hang of it and inevitably block too early or too late. Or I block and then try to punish, but an enemy I could barely see (or couldn't see) on the edge of the screen homes in on me and hits me.

All of this is probably my fault, for sure. But it hasn't been a whole lot of fun so far. I remember the first time played ninja gaiden or god hand. I got my ass kicked, but it was fun. So whatever the secret sauce is that makes wonderful 101 enjoyable, I haven't encountered it yet.

Invoking DSP is textbook first playthrough
How far through (ish) are you? For me, the core started to click somewhere around when you get Yellow (an airship level?) but remained overwhelming until looping back around with upgrades in the post-game.

[Volteccer_Jack]

it acts as a soft reset and forces the player to relearn just as they're hitting stride.

Why is that a bad thing? I will truly never understand why some folks get so buttflustered about being required to play more than one character during the course of a game, or heaven forbid, having certain features only be available during certain stages. One imagines these people shutting off Metal Slug 3 in disgust because they aren't granted the privilege of picking which Slug is available in each stage.

She's a try-hard comic relief jobber from start to finish, yet the game treats her like the newtype who's going to replace all the boring old characters in Season 4.

Couldn't disagree more. Far from replacing the old characters, Viola is defined by her relationship to them. All of her actions and motivations in the story revolve around Bayonetta and Luka, she's a try-hard because she wants to be as good as Bayonetta, and she's comic relief because [spoiler redacted but the answer's pretty obvious]. Also Kamiya already stated that Viola won't replace Cereza in a sequel.

No idea why people act like the ending of Bayo 3 is set in stone when the game literally confirms that the first 3 games all take place in parallel universes and follow different characters. At one point in Bayo 3, Bayonetta spontaneously comes back from the dead without explanation. Stop taking the made-up nonsense plot seriously.

like cynical 'Platinum wants to make a feelsy indie' pitch material on first blush

Bayo Origins is just a fun little puzzley action adventure not unlike Okami. Dunno why your knickers are in such a twist over this, feels like you're the one being cynical.

Should have been its own thing that wasn't weighed down by the need to also be Bayo

but it feels more like a big toybox than something that comes together into a system whose elements truly compliment one another.

...a core character moveset that is actively at odds with itself

skill issue

For the record by the way, the most significant changes to Viola in the update were the following: She can now perform perfect blocks slightly after taking damage, the same way Bat Within works, and she can now maintain a sword charge during dodge or block offsets.

[Sima Tuna]

Wonderful 101 is going really rough. Everything about playing this game feels wrong to me. I'm going to assume it's user error, because my first instinct is to go full DSP and blame the game. "Oh mah gawd the game is laggy! I pressed BLAWK! WHAT THE FUCK DOOD" And then I flail my arms as poor Wonder Red eats a cannonball to the face. The mobility feels really bad in this game compared to other PAD titles I've played. Standard movement feels slow. Enemy attacks track. Maybe I need to be holding the dash button all the time? I want to use the Spring but it uses up my power bar really fast. So I assume I need to save that for dodging only. The block timing is both lenient and harsh-I can't get the hang of it and inevitably block too early or too late. Or I block and then try to punish, but an enemy I could barely see (or couldn't see) on the edge of the screen homes in on me and hits me.

All of this is probably my fault, for sure. But it hasn't been a whole lot of fun so far. I remember the first time played ninja gaiden or god hand. I got my ass kicked, but it was fun. So whatever the secret sauce is that makes wonderful 101 enjoyable, I haven't encountered it yet.

Invoking DSP is textbook first playthrough
How far through (ish) are you? For me, the core started to click somewhere around when you get Yellow (an airship level?) but remained overwhelming until looping back around with upgrades in the post-game.

Oh, I'm only a couple missions in. The missions were/are pretty long, so I would get burned out after each one and have to take a break. I'm very tempted to go into stage 1 and just lab it out over and over until the combat stops feeling like total ass.

Unrelated: Been playing a bit of DMC3 again and now I totally see where some of the criticisms of that game are coming from. No devil trigger until after Vergil? Bro. That's way too long to wait for such an integral mechanic. Camera angles are fiddly and stages/enemies are rather bland. The need to upgrade styles and weapons for exorbitant prices doesn't help with the game feeling slow-paced. I could grind in level select but I hate that shit. NG Black/Sigma, by contrast, are balanced around fresh save playthroughs without grinding. Which is pretty fucking nice!

Most of my play time with dmc3 was years ago on completed saves where I had everything unlocked. Obviously the game is operating at its maximum fun levels when you play that way. But I have a problem with PAD titles in general locking their best content behind postgame. Another reason to love God Hand, because God Hand is built around fresh save playthroughs, just like NGB.