Devil May Cry [PS2] + R2VKMF: Polygonal Action Daishingeki

[Lander]

I like DMC 3 music, especially the Vergil themes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8I1Hku8GQk

This is the song I think of when I think "DMC3," just like how Bayo makes me think of "Mysterious Destiny."

Vergil's tunes are kickass. Battle 3 does a great job of putting aside the metalcore and bringing the drama to a fitting conclusion. The choral stuff evokes a similar gravitas to the white room at the end of DMC1, only without that embarrassing business about Dark Souls and Light.

Though Battle 2 was always my favourite in terms of pure general purpose FITE.

And on that day, the drummer said to the lead guitarist... "I want yours, too."

Spoiler

That's what I fucking love about Ninja Gaiden. Ninja Warriors Once Again has some similar stuff it does, where a dude will stand just barely outside your punch range to stab you with the knife. The game knows! In both cases, you have to know how to recover safely from offense.

I still find NG's AI shames most newer offerings. Getting fighting game feels in a single player title - because enemies actually grok footsies, turn stealing, and all that jazz - is something action game developers should strive for, but there's precious little of it.

[Sumez]

Now I think of it, there's a fair bit of nuance to the targeting system that takes a while to click, but is very controllable when you get it down.
Were you playing mostly unlocked? Back specials should be consistent if you keep the lock input held down for the duration of a given combo.

I was locking on at almost any time, the targeting was mostly an issue whenever I needed to switch targets. I never found the moving away to do a high time super reliable either way though - at one point I was positioned awkwardly next to an adjucator statue and was even unable to do it reliably on that. So it might be a camera angle issue.
That's one thing I like more about Bayonetta's system, it basically acts like you're locked on even when you aren't, so you only need the lock on button to do the towards/away moves, and I feel more in control playing unlocked.
I guess DMC3 basically does the same, but I think there are subtle differences. At least the game doesn't display which enemy you are focusing on until you hold the lock button (and even that feature somehow randomly disables itself?), and I often found it would be something other than I expected.

Learning to neutral the stick more often than not is a generally good tactic as well - Dante will autocorrect toward the nearest enemy if you're not locked on, which makes it easier to deal with crowds or shift into lock-on mode without firing off an unintended directional special.

Yeah I definitely found out as much, I think muscle memory made it very hard for me to just sit neutrally at any given time, which definitely affected my damage output negatively. For boss fights the difference was obvious.

The secret to enjoying DMC3's soundtrack is to mute it and play your own music.

This feature is standard on most consoles from X360/PS3 and up, but I've always felt that when playing a game I should experience all aspects of it. But I've never wished for this feature as much as in DMC3, yet it doesn't even have the option to control sfx and music volumes separately! Unfortunately, muting the game entirely really affects how it feels to play, I think audio cues play heavily into making the game flow like it should.

Beowulf's ground pound is avoided by running away a short distance and then jumping. That's an attack that is avoided by movement rather than just i-frames.

Yeah, that doesn't work. It's what I tried doing for several full attempts before finally caving in and switching to Trickster. Had every aspect of the figth down perfectly aside from that one attack.

Just do your whole movelist in any order, then repeat that order.

You were literally quoting me saying that's what I did. Not helping, sorry

Again, I don't see how this is different from dodging in DMC3. In both games, most attacks are incredibly easy to avoid. The skill lies in doing so without losing your offensive momentum, because both games are heavily focused on ranked play.

Having just played both games back to back, I'll say there's a pretty damn massive difference. In Bayonetta, the dodge is basically a simple move that can easily be thrown into your existing flow, in DMC3 it massively affects your movement, and you have to actively fit it into whatever you are trying to do if you want to keep the momentum going, or even maintain your damage output.

(they're also both quite easy unless playing the hardest setting)

Okay then

[Squire Grooktook]

>MFW people not liking Devil May Cry music

[BIL]

ngl, "2 TAKE ME OUT YOU MUST FIGHT LIEK A MAYNE" ("TO TAKE ME OUT U MUST FIET LIEK A MAYYYNE~") is my GOAT lyric, holy fuck (without even considering the obvious ~HOMO VIBEZ~ ) I always loved it. If I'm going to be stabbing, shooting, clubbing and setting some poor skeelten motherfucker on fire before riding him around the room like a Segway, as opposed to kicking his teeth in before putting a foot of million-folded Nihon steel through his back - that's exactly the song I'd have playing. Not every R2VKMF can be - nor would I have them be! - unalloyed cri de coeur Bushi-core ala Shinobi

[Lander]

Say what you will about the subjective qualities of its metal, DMC has always nailed the theme. And kickstarted many a teen trenchcoat-and-jackboot phase in the process

Make your move. Make your stand.
Make the win. HA, like you can

[Volteccer_Jack]

You were literally quoting me saying that's what I did.

I linked a video demonstration (from a no-upgrade run no less), here is the same link again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJsrHNKvLqw -- I dunno what you did but it wasn't this, and this is what I was telling you to do. It's quite easy even with default moveset, adding Swordmaster makes it practically effortless.

Yeah, that doesn't work.

Here's video proof that it does in fact work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSrUIj1--Xk -- Timestamp 1:40, the player is meleeing Beowulf, recognizes that the ground pound is coming, and simply runs then jumps to avoid the attack. Then does it again a few seconds later, in case you had any doubts about this method's consistency. He does the same thing a few more times later in the vid too.

The reason this attack is tricky is that the hitbox remains active for a long time. You shouldn't rely on i-frames alone to avoid it, unless you're in Royal Guard. You instead need to physically move out of the hitbox, either horizontally or vertically.

Here are some more examples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gIDgfpza5A -- Timestamp 3:20. This player dodges it with nothing but running, no buttons needed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImMRPRu2Bb0 -- Timestamp 8:29. This player dodges it by side-rolling, then running.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__mQVKVCDiI -- Timestamp 1:10. Instead of running, this player uses two consecutive normal jumps to create horizontal distance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOq-jXHKEWo -- Timestamp 2:50. This player runs then jumps then Air Hikes, the Air Hike was not necessary but allows him to be sloppy with his timing and still not get hit.

The game is 18 years old and has a fanbase obsessed with recording gameplay footage. I've personally clocked more hours in it than most players ever will. I'm not out here just making stuff up.

In Bayonetta, the dodge is basically a simple move that can easily be thrown into your existing flow, in DMC3 it massively affects your movement, and you have to actively fit it into whatever you are trying to do if you want to keep the momentum going, or even maintain your damage output.

In DMC3 a vertical jump is a simple one button move that can be easily thrown into your existing flow, returns you to your original position meaning it doesn't affect your movement unless you want it to, and is also your fastest evasion tool. Not only that, it even gives you more offensive options than if you had not jumped, since you can choose to use your air attacks or simply wait a moment and resume ground combos. And since the air attacks have very strong stagger properties in DMC3, performing a vertical jump will often increase your damage output, regardless of whether you're dodging something!

By contrast, Bayonetta always moves to a new position when dodging whether you like it or not, and NEEDS to master dodge offset or else loses significant damage output and momentum after every dodge. The enemies in Bayonetta are also an order of magnitude more aggressive than DMC3's lethargic sandbags, and much harder to stagger or stun. In Bayonetta, careless dodges are much more likely to leave you in the path of oncoming attacks forcing you to waste more time dodging and further delaying your own damage output.

>MFW people not liking Devil May Cry music

DMC1 music is mostly good.
DMC3 music is mostly terrible.
DMC4 music is better than DMC3 but still not good.
DMC5 music is incredible.

ngl, "2 TAKE ME OUT YOU MUST FIGHT LIEK A MAYNE" ("TO TAKE ME OUT U MUST FIET LIEK A MAYYYNE~") is my GOAT lyric, holy fuck

In a world that has "The time has come and so have I" DMC3's lyrics are bland and boring to me.

[BIL]

In a world that has "The time has come and so have I" DMC3's lyrics are bland and boring to me.

Hearing something as dispassionately fatal as "take out" ("We infiltrated the barracks, took out everyone sleeping in there" - 1000yd stare SAS bloke with more slit throats than hot dinners) in this flamboyant entendre-laden context just kills me dead; conjures a shonen anime take on Frankie's Relax video. It's good fun! Don't get me wrong though, it's no MG Rising. That shit is opera.

Yeah it'll be 2030 by the time I get round to it, but DMC5 got some fookin jams m8. Marked many a fat stack of papers to that 1hr Devil Trigger extend a few years back. "Nothing can save you and there's no way out" indeed, I privately remarked at some!

[Squire Grooktook]

DMC1 music is mostly good.
DMC3 music is mostly terrible.
DMC4 music is better than DMC3 but still not good.
DMC5 music is incredible.

1 and 2 are both fantastic, committed entirely to moody ambience and high octane genre bending rock/electronic battle music. 2's soundtrack in particular is sadly slept on due to the game being shit, but in some ways I think it's even better than 1 with some absolutely amazing battle themes that deserved a better game.

3 is when the series truly solidified and committed to its camp, and it introduces a heavier reliance on lyrical themes...all of which are excellent. At the same time it also keeps a half and half of moody ambience and instrumental themes in the vein of 1 and 2 (Arkham's first battle theme is really a masterpiece of that sound, to say nothing of every Vergil battle). Overall it's a fantastic ost that fits the game like a glove and you're a bad person if you disagree.

4 is the same. I think the lyrical tracks are better and worse (the time has come I'd take over any lyrical track from 3 excepting the main theme, but Dante's lyrical battle themes are pretty forgettable...though the dante vs nero theme really grew on me). The more dmc1/2-ish electronic instrumentals though are fantastic, Baroque and Beats, Swipe of Sword, and Science Will Never Die being excellent.

5 is good, but I personally feel somewhat disappointed that it mostly departs entirely from the roots of 1 and 2 with most of the instrumental tracks (barring the Voltaic Black Knight / Geryon themes and The Duel) being kinda nothing. The vocal tracks are great, and the adaptive mixing is good, but it loses something of the atmosphere of the past games with few instrumental tracks of note forming connective tissue between the anthemic lyrical themes. In some ways I'd actually rate it my least favorite, though that's not to say it's not great in its own right.

[Sumez]

I linked a video demonstration (from a no-upgrade run no less), here is the same link again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJsrHNKvLqw -- I dunno what you did but it wasn't this, and this is what I was telling you to do. It's quite easy even with default moveset, adding Swordmaster makes it practically effortless.

I know this isn't your intention, but these comments really feel super condescending. I picked out that statue exactly to represent an example of an aspect to the game that I'm not grasping, hoping it could demonstrate something I needed to be more aware of - and just going on for multiple posts about how the game is just super easy, comes off as an attempt to humiliate me, rather than offer any sort of help.
I wouldn't call the game super hard or anything, but it's definitely a sufficiently challenging game that feels satisfying to beat on the default difficulty. It seems similar to me to how Dark Souls isn't strictly "difficult" as long as you're being observational, pay attention to your surroundings and know the movesets of your enemies so you can always predict what they are going to do. But if I told a beginner player who was struggling with the game that "Pssh Dark Souls is super easy", instead of helping them learn the ropes, I'd probably feel like a bit of an ass.

As for the adjucator statue, I literally typed the entire laundry list of moves that I'm going through (though I forgot the part about extending into million stab which I also did of course), pretty much just taking every move listed for the Rebellion, including the Swordmaster moves, and going them through in order, repeating that same order to make sure the one I use is always the most "stale" one.
Even doing that, the highest I've been able to go is just touching SS, and I've been standing around hacking at this statue for several minutes, trying out various approaches.
Not sure what that video is going to help, when the guy doesn't write what he's doing. It's great knowing that it's possible, but the video doesn't explain anything.
Instead of just putting me down with "it's easy and effortless", if you want to comment on it maybe you could help me realise what it is I'm missing to beat the statue?

Lander posted a helpful hint, that using devil trigger gives a speed boost which can help with the combo. Honestly I hadn't even considered using DT, as you don't even have it yet at the point where this statue appears, so it might be enough for me to beat the statue. But again, knowing that it's possible with no upgrades at all obviously means that there's something else I need to learn.

The game is 18 years old and has a fanbase obsessed with recording gameplay footage. I've personally clocked more hours in it than most players ever will. I'm not out here just making stuff up.

Again, I'm obviously not doubting that the attack is avoidable, I know they wouldn't put in such a prevalent super-damaging move in a major boss fight without knowing there's a consistent way to dodge it. The thing is, I have no idea how, and yeah, the thing about running the hell away and jump out of the blast is the most intuitive possible thing you could do, so of course I've tried it over and over. Also, I of course didn't want to see videos of anyone else playing the bosses before getting through my own first blindthrough with the game, it's more fun to figure these things out on my own, then retreating to discuss the best strategies with experienced players afterwards.
But seeing the examples you posted, I also don't see them doing anything different from what I've been doing, so obviously there's something else in there that no one is mentioning. Something like knowledge about the attack's precise reach and area of effect (doesn't seem it though, as I see people just running away in a straight line?), or early tells that he's going to do it, or knowledge of his patterns that helps predict when one is going to come.
Watching the videos I noticed he's always doing a small flex before pulling his fist back, which I didn't notice while playing the game, so it's possible that can help me detect the attack early enough to get away without relying on Trickster.

3 is when the series truly solidified and committed to its camp, and it introduces a heavier reliance on lyrical themes...all of which are excellent. At the same time it also keeps a half and half of moody ambience and instrumental themes in the vein of 1 and 2 (Arkham's first battle theme is really a masterpiece of that sound, to say nothing of every Vergil battle). Overall it's a fantastic ost that fits the game like a glove and you're a bad person if you disagree.

Most of DMC3's music is perfectly alright, I even like some of the themes. It's really just that one battle theme that plays over nearly every single room as long as there's an enemy in it, until it gets replaced for the last couple of stages, which is annoyingly awful, and has extremely incessant and tiresome vocals (even ignoring the embarassing lyrics).
If it just played one time it would probably be enjoyable, but there's no way to enjoy that track playing constantly with next to no interruptions.

[Lethe]

You've said you're most likely done with the game already, but there's a simple way to solve all these gameplay issues: record your play and see what's happening. Guaranteed, there will be a gap between what you think you're doing and what you're actually doing. For example:

Lander posted a helpful hint, that using devil trigger gives a speed boost which can help with the combo.

The bottleneck here is waiting for the style cooldown on repeat attacks. Attacking more quickly doesn't help. For the same reason, it's impossible not to hit SSS after n repetitions if your cycle of unique attacks is longer than that cooldown. You've said you've had trouble executing some motions and that you don't always know where you are in a combo; therefore, it's very likely you're just mis-executing. There are no secret tricks that you're missing and no video notations that will help; you're overthinking and underexecuting the funny button mashing game, and the solution is to become a better gorilla.

[Sima Tuna]

Is he using taunt to extend the combo window? I've been reading his posts and must have missed if Sumez said he was using it. Taunt will let you inflate your combo and keep you from performing repeat moves at the same time.

From what I remember of the Beowulf boss, you either jump with the exactly perfect timing so that your i-frame covers the attack, or you Air Hike so far above it that it can't touch you, or you Air Trick through it. Air Tricking directly at a boss when they're attacking you almost always works.

[Squire Grooktook]

Not really following the convo but my brief glimpses of massive walls of text arguing over the minutae of strategy and mechanics feels like everyone is overanalyzing the game. I think part of why the series is fun is you don't have to play it at a "high level" or even aim for it to have a good time: it's fun as a simple slasher, and also it's fun to pry into its toybox and discover more fun things to do. If you feel like you're missing out on a lot of depth, don't sweat it: just have a good time and if you enjoy it enough to keep replaying or dig into its secrets you'll discover more stuff in time.

[Sumez]

Is he using taunt to extend the combo window? I've been reading his posts and must have missed if Sumez said he was using it. Taunt will let you inflate your combo and keep you from performing repeat moves at the same time.

Taunting works on statues? That's definitely not something I expected. I think I might have tried it and it mistakingly concluded that it had no effect?

[Sumez]

Not really following the convo but my brief glimpses of massive walls of text arguing over the minutae of strategy and mechanics feels like everyone is overanalyzing the game. I think part of why the series is fun is you don't have to play it at a "high level" or even aim for it to have a good time: it's fun as a simple slasher, and also it's fun to pry into its toybox and discover more fun things to do.

This is defintiely true, and my immediate conclusion is that DMC3 holds up fairly well played like this compared to Bayonetta which demands looking further below the surface to really see what it has to offer (though this distinction may depend on which aspects of games you enjoy).
Exactly like I wrote, I enjoyed DMC3 immensely on a blind scrub playthrough, but it also made me interested in seeing more of the depth of the game that wasn't apparent to me.

Ultimately, the game keeps hitting you over your head with "you need to play faster, use fewer items, play stylish, keep the combo going and fresh, and master all the tools, weapons and moves in your arsenal", with its gradings showed into your faces not just at the end of stages, but also constantly during combat. So digging deep into strategy and mechanics seems like a pretty obvious next step to me, the game wants me to.

[Blinge]

in a post DMC1 world, do Hack and Slash games exist?

What's an example? Is there still a place for this term ?

[Sumez]

Using "hack n slash" for anything aside from its original RPG meaning is a probably too vague to ever have been of any real use in conversation

[Blinge]

What games do you mean tho?

[Lander]

Sharing tech is in the spirit of high-complexity action games - it's not reasonable to expect technical obsessiveness from a player early into the mechanical curve, but it's nice to have a window into what's to come.

in a post DMC1 world, do Hack and Slash games exist?

What's an example? Is there still a place for this term ?

If we're including PS2 in the post-DMC remit, there are various late-runners like Onimusha 2 / 3 / DoD, Genji, Rygar, God of War, etc, that still fit the idea of 'melee action, but not too technical'.

PS360 had a few here and there amidst the brown shooter mire, like Heavenly Sword and Enslaved. Assuming of course that we're also ignoring the Grey Goo Scenario that is 'Action Adventure'

Nowadays I'd say the genre is near fully subsumed into Souls. I guess you have outliers like Hellblade, Dad of War and Ghost of Tsushima that technically qualify, but fall more under the umbrella of Sony Walk And Chat Game (feat. melee) or Open World Game (also feat. melee) than the proto-character-action definition of old.

In some sense, it seems that a given game's structure is now - in the main - more important to its characteristic name than the thing you spend most of your playtime doing.

What games do you mean tho?

I assume combat-focused dungeon crawlers like Dungeon Master, though I've seen the term used to refer to more or less any RPG that's primarily concerned with bashing monsters in dank places - actual ASCII rogue-likes, Icewind Dale, Diablo, you name it.

[Sima Tuna]

Action rpgs with leveling and stats can still be "hack and slash" games without qualifying as character action. That's what I typically think of when somebody says a hack and slash game.

Dynasty Warriors and musou games are also hack and slash. Despite having their own skill ceilings and advanced tech, I wouldn't really call Warriors Orochi 3 a character action game.

[Sumez]

"Hack 'n slash" comes from tabletop RPGs and pretty much does describe games based on leveling and stats, when the focus of the game becomes more on mindlessly killing enemies to increase your stats, rather than roleplaying or fighting strategically (though any tabletop nerds in here can correct me if I got it wrong).
The term has been adapted to several video games for obvious reasons, with Diablo I guess being a very obvious example, though it would describe a type of combat moreso than an entire game genre.

Of course adapting the term to video games quickly saw it describing pretty much any games using melee weapon combat, I like Golden Axe and so on.
The Wikipedia page even calls Shinobi "hack 'n slash" so I guess really anything goes.

You can call DMC hack 'n slash if you want, I don't think it's wrong, but it won't say much about the game either.

[Squire Grooktook]

The 3d action market is kind of in a weird state in terms of how monikers go. Hack and Slash was kind of an 00's era way to describe games where you mash out combos to kill things, but games like Devil May Cry, God of War, and Bayonetta, etc. have been so influential on every kind of non-shooting-based 3d combat that even otherwise dumb action rpg's have cribbed enough of their mechanics and general gamefeel that it's hard to describe them in the same way.

[XoPachi]

https://twitter.com/platinumgames/statu ... 5564130785

[Lander]

Well shit, only Inaba left now in terms of OG Clover crew.
Now I wonder how long the writing has been on the wall for, between pet projects not doing so well and the hoo-ha over Bayo 3. And was it P*'s wall, or Kamiya's?

I imagine we'll see him pop up helming a new solo-auteur studio before long, as is tradition with rockstar JP industry vets.

[evil_ash_xero]

Never finished the fist DMC. I may need to get around to that some day.
I really enjoyed III (if we're talking about the PS2 games). Never played 2, due to.... a bad reputation.

[XoPachi]

DMC 1 has a really nice atmosphere. You can tell it was absolutely supposed to be Resident Evil 4.

It's sense of exploration and creepy vibes keeps it as one of my favorites. It's aesthetically and audibly my preferred. I love the music. Great game.
I kind of wish it could get remade into a full search action ordeal. Mainly just removing mission transitions and letting you progress through Mallet Island mostly uninterrupted. But I guess those sick ass transitions and mission start music do add something to the experience.

[Lander]

DMC1 is worth the revisit. Its style isn't so refined as 3 and onward, but the atmosphere is the best bar none, and it does certain unique things like the monster manual which never came back.

It sounds minor, but stuff like having a list of secret tricks to deal with each enemy (which you have to figure out and trigger yourself to fill out the list) - alongside the enemies being complex enough for that to work - gives it the strongest sense of 'demon hunter game' in the series imo.

[XoPachi]

I miss the barrier hands that would reach out and touch you when you got close.

[Lander]

[BIL]

Man, your Spikeout posts and GIFs are the best. Loved hazys' writeup too.

A not-so-subtle rebuke of suspenseful RE loading doors, perhaps?

That VF1-vintage "arms out, legs rigid, head back" juggle animation seen here is one of my favourite bits of beater genealogy. Was recently revisiting Dynamite Deka, which has it too. Amongst many other things.

[Lander]

Tales from the secret B-side:



I love this game

And more to come, once I stop being so picky about combo quality - the necessary incantations have been made to auto-record whenever Supermodel is running

That VF1-vintage "arms out, legs rigid, head back" juggle animation seen here is one of my favourite bits of beater genealogy. Was recently revisiting Dynamite Deka, which has it too. Amongst many other things.

Classic! And still headlining in Tekken, if I'm not mistaken

Speaking of quality genes, I love the spin stun there's another that's still doing mileage to this day, if with greatly boosted angular velocity.

Deka has a similar love for novelty weapon pickups, if memory serves! I've not put in enough time to develop any real skill, but what I played of the PS2 version had serious moxie. Good moves, Advanced Cop Mechanics, and more modes than you can shake a nightstick at - definitely marked for a revisit of my own at some point.