Limited Run Games - New Physical Releases

[m.sniffles.esq]

I'm not sure I see the relation to ponzi schemes at all. It's a completely normal way of doing business, and IMO also a lot more commendable than the alternative.

Taking money in exchange for something you don't actually have is a normal way of doing business?
Hows about sending me $80 for a 'pre-order' for the LE Switch port of Batrider that I'm releasing... eventually.
Don't worry, it's totally normal

[Sumez]

Taking money in exchange for something you don't actually have is a normal way of doing business?

Yes this is completely normal. Lots of webshops have items in backorder. Other companies will build a product for you based on an order you placed. I don't really see anything out of the ordinary there. This would only be a scheme if they were to actually never provide said item.

Actually withdrawing money before shipping the item however - like I said, that wouldn't be legal in Europe, but the US doesn't have restrictions on that.

[Koa Zo]

Regardless, the incredibly protracted turn-around time makes it obvious they're attempting to run a 'zero-risk' business. In which, the customer's 'pre-order' is being used to cover the manufacturing charges.

They very explicitly state that this is the case on every single of their preorder listings, yes.

Not only is this not strictly legal (in that, it ain't legal at all. Just ask Charles Ponzi...)

I'm not sure I see the relation to ponzi schemes at all. It's a completely normal way of doing business, and IMO also a lot more commendable than the alternative.

The much more dodgy side of their business is 1) Refusing to cancel orders and 2) Claiming customer payments before shipping items - both of those are illegal in most countries, but since they operate out of USA, they can get away with a lot of hostile practices like those.

When selling newly announced items (that don't actually exist yet) to cover the costs for manufacturing the previous items you sold (that also didn't exist when you sold them) that exactly parallels what a Ponzi scheme is.
Certainly not a normal way of doing business.

[Sumez]

That wasn't the case though? That assumption doesn't even make sense. Sold items are used to cover the cost of those same sold items. It's the same as Kickstarter.
Their business has always been zero-risk, but previously they would only print enough items that they were sure they'd be able to sell. With the open preorder method the risk is still eliminated, but they ensure anyone who wants a copy will get it. This is the first time I've heard anyone claim the new method is worse.

For a lot of smaller devs this is the only way to release a physical run of their games without risking a massive financial hit. While I prefer a wide retail release, for many indie games LRG is pretty much a necessary evil.
If you believe their practice is somehow illegal, I'd love to see any kind of proof. The notion seems nuts to me.

[Koa Zo]

Limited Run seem to have it under control so far as they have become a behemoth of this business model. Of course I can't truly know what is going on with their money stream.
It is clear other limited print companies are doing or tried to do exactly what I described. The first round of sold items cover the cost of salaries and overhead until the next product gets put up for sale to refresh the coffers and get manufacturing underway for the first round. It works for awhile, which is exactly why Ponzi schemes keep occuring throughout history.
Dispatch did. Watermelon did. All indicators are Strictly Limited is doing this. It seems First Press may do this as well

[m.sniffles.esq]

When selling newly announced items (that don't actually exist yet) to cover the costs for manufacturing the previous items you sold (that also didn't exist when you sold them) that exactly parallels what a Ponzi scheme is.

Than you, voice of sanity...

Like, I can understand "Yeah, it's shade as fuck. But whatever, I want the game, and their track record has been pretty ok thus far"

But actually being all "What??? When I go to Burger King, I hand the cashier $10, they run down to the street to the supermarket, buy ground beef, cheese, pickles, and buns, come back, cook and assemble the ingredients, THEN hand me my burger. Y'know, like normal. I mean, the cashier even says "I have to use this $10 to run to the store" and everything. I don't know what kind of Burger Kings you have that just keep all that shit on the premises. How can they even buy all that shit if you don't give them $10?? Let's come back to reality, pal" was making me feel like I had entered the crazy, upside-down world.

[Rastan78]

It is clear other limited print companies are doing or tried to do exactly what I described. The first round of sold items cover the cost of salaries and overhead until the next product gets put up for sale to refresh the coffers and get manufacturing underway for the first round. It works for awhile, which is exactly why Ponzi schemes keep occuring throughout history.

By this rational freelancers are running a ponzi scheme. Artists for example take a deposit used to cover overhead and materials to get them through a commission. Rinse repeat. If they don't get money up front they would often have no way to produce the work.

Authors, same thing. They collect an advance for a book that isn't written yet. It's not fraudulent at all assuming they deliver as promised.

As far as the Burger King analogy I'm sure personal chefs do exactly that. Are they going to buy your food out of pocket before preparing it? Maybe or maybe not depending on their cash flow.

Contractors? Are they legally required to pay for all materials out of pocket?

A ponzi scheme has to do with investment. You tell people you have a way of giving them high returns on investments and the means you have to generate returns is completely false. You generate reports that show investments growing while putting everything in your own pocket. All the while counting on the fact that not everyone will want to cash out at the same time. You're not investing their money legitimately in a real business or fund its just sitting in your own acct. If someone asks to pull cash out you simply take it from the money given to you by other investors. It crumbles bc eventually you don't have any money to pay people due to the fact that you've told everyone there is way more cash than what really exists.

[cfx]

I'm staying out of the rest of your insane argument, but:

Of course, some games will receive further patches after a LRG release comes out, so you can still download those.

A 5GB patch? If that's the case, I don't blame them for shipping a digital key. What's the point of putting anything on the cart if the entire thing is to be replaced anyway?

This surprises you? It's quite common, at least on Playstation, and I wouldn't doubt on Switch.

Some patches are very small and replace just tiny bits of code, but it's just as common to have ones that replace most or all of the entire game, especially with indie-type titles.

[m.sniffles.esq]

A ponzi scheme has to do with investment

Jesus... Seriously.

Uh, yeah, you're right. I have no idea what I was thinking. Personal chefs and all that...*

Anyway...


*personal chefs buy needed ingredients/equipment then invoice clients on expenses including applicable receipts and whatnot. I know this, as I've worked as a... nevermind.

Edit:
Sorry, I just find the image of

"Hey, I like your style. I'd like to hire you as my personal chef"

"Oh, cool. Well, I'm going to need a couple hundred bucks for like... meat and spatulas and shit. Don't worry, I'll give you the change, if there is any. Oh, can I use your car?"

to be really funny.

[Rastan78]

Yeah definitely. Or I'm going to paint your portrait. I want 100% of my fee up front with no guarantee when I'll finish lol.

Normally you would get a deposit and the rest when finished or at certain milestones. That way each party has something to lose if they walk away.

So yeah I agree this is a shitty and consumer unfriendly business model. But not necessarily fraudulent or illegal so long as both parties agree and the product is eventually delivered.

[m.sniffles.esq]

But not necessarily fraudulent or illegal so long as both parties agree and the product is eventually delivered.

And yet there are people in this very thread complaining about not getting product delivered...

Just for the record, this whole 'as long as the customer knows what they're getting themselves into' is such nonsense. You're telling me if Limited Run sent out an email tomorrow saying "as you all well know, your 'pre-order' isn't a purchase, it's an investment. And we deeply regret to tell you, there will be no return on that investment", all pre-order customers would shrug and say "Dems the breaks. We knew what we were getting into"?

Y'know, people towards the top of the pyramid in Ponzi schemes tend to be happy campers while they're getting checks, and claim that everyone knows what they're getting into. It's when those checks stop coming do they start calling federal agents.

[neorichieb1971]

I don't see Limited run as a ponzi scheme.

Firstly the more components a product has the more likely they come from different places and different sources. Limited run special collectors editions require steelbooks, OST's, post cards, key rings... they don't come from one source.. Then someone has to pack that stuff together. I am currently waiting on DDP from Limited run. They have shipped the standard game but not the collectors editions.

The other likely delay is pressing discs and cards. The Nintendo Switch version probably requires Nintendo to have a window of opportunity to put those card machines to use on something like a limited run. I doubt there is many opportunities to make limited runs. This delays the product.

A preorder for a year though, thats tough to stomach. It is a long time.

[m.sniffles.esq]

(it seriously confounds me that just saying "Dispatch Games" doesn't kill this argument immediately)

[Sumez]

Whether something is illegal or not isn't a subjective opinion.
Unless I see a reliable source stating that putting up an object for preorder before it exists is illegal, there is nothing here to discuss.

[kid aphex]

Not only do people need to stop buying games from this company,
developers/publishers need to stop supporting them by doing business with them.

[Sumez]

I'd honestly love to stop buying from them, and whenever an alternate way to acquire a game exists, I will go that route. But when LRG is the only way to get a copy of Mushihimesama on Switch, Bug Fables, Night in the Woods, Dusk, and so on, that's where I'll have to go to buy them.

[m.sniffles.esq]

Not only do people need to stop buying games from this company,
developers/publishers need to stop supporting them by doing business with them.

Thank you, (2nd) voice of sanity.

(while I don't have any info on how they go about paying the devs. I know that if I was a dev, and suddenly this email appeared stating "We wanna release a physical edition of your game, and will pay you 65 grand for the pleasure!" I know I'd have a REAL hard time saying 'no')

[hamfighterx]

Not only do people need to stop buying games from this company,
developers/publishers need to stop supporting them by doing business with them.

Why do you feel the need to tell OTHER PEOPLE what to do with their money? You're free to not buy from them, and you aren't being hurt by other people making the opposite decision.

Limited Run Games almost exclusively publishes physical versions of games that are already released via download. So the game still exists for anyone who wants it and does not want to do business with LRG.

While it's impossible to quantify the number of games where, if LRG and its peers did not exist, the developer might choose to work with a publisher to do a normal retail release - the number of those would presumably be very small just due to the economics of needing minimum print run sizes and having the required knowledge and connections (which LRG does) to operationally manage the manufacturing and fulfillment process. LRG and its ilk represent the only real possibility for some of these games to get a physical copy due to the business realities of the industry today. So, I think that having the option to either order from LRG, flaws and all, is a preferable alternative to having NO option to buy physical copies. If you don't, nobody's forcing you.

Some of these companies have built up a track record of delivering what they say they will: Limited Run, Strictly Limited, Eastasiasoft(Play-Asia), and Fangamer are examples. Some companies are less reliable (First Press Games comes to mind). Dispatch Games is a pure fraud, but that doesn't mean every limited print company is a scam (that's like saying that just because Superman 64 was terrible, all Nintendo 64 games must be bad).

[kid aphex]

Why do you feel the need to tell OTHER PEOPLE what to do with their money? You're free to not buy from them, and you aren't being hurt by other people making the opposite decision.

…because they’re an awful company and I want to see them fail? I assumed that was obvious.

If people keep giving this shitty company their money, publishers and developers will keep signing with them and _I’LL_ be stuck with them as the only AWFUL option when a physical release pops up that _I_ really want.

So, yeah… in a roundabout way, their continued success fucks me.

1.5-2 year turn-around times on games is LUDICROUS.

[Bar81]

Why do you feel the need to tell OTHER PEOPLE what to do with their money? You're free to not buy from them, and you aren't being hurt by other people making the opposite decision.

…because they’re an awful company and I want to see them fail? I assumed that was obvious.

If people keep giving this shitty company their money, publishers and developers will keep signing with them and _I’LL_ be stuck with them as the only AWFUL option when a physical release pops up that _I_ really want.

So, yeah… in a roundabout way, their continued success fucks me.

1.5-2 year turn-around times on games is LUDICROUS.

You're one of the few remaining who hasn't gotten the news that this fight was lost a *long* time ago. Have you seen the people of this Earth? Stupid people doing (buying) stupid shit is a core tenant of humanity at this point. People actually buy games that don't even have the GAME inside. It's why I walked away from gaming after the X360, it started getting stupid, and it's gotten dumber every year and will continue to get dumber ad infinitum. If you want to stay in the cesspool that is modern gaming, for your health, you need to accept that the lowest common denominator now dominates and everything harmful to consumers will be adopted and accepted. Once you accept that, you might be able to enjoy it.

[hamfighterx]

If people keep giving this shitty company their money, publishers and developers will keep signing with them and _I’LL_ be stuck with them as the only AWFUL option when a physical release pops up that _I_ really want.

So, yeah… in a roundabout way, their continued success fucks me.

Do you really believe that if LRG failed, a company that is less awful would step in to fill the void and start producing physical copies of the games you want? I think you're very naïve if you do. Far more likely that nobody would make a physical copy of that release you really want.

And hell, LRG's days in this niche are numbered regardless of how good or bad of a company they are, because it's inevitable that we're going to get consoles with no physical media as our only option pretty damn soon. I'd be surprised if PS6 and Microsoft's next gen system aren't download-only machines. Each of them already have a digital only option, and MS's newly leaked mid-cycle Series X refresh will do the same. Switch 2 may well be the last console we ever see with physical media (I sure hope it uses carts and allows backwards compatibility, which seems like a reasonably safe bet at this point). Anyone else getting into the physical games market now would be kind of crazy.

Also lol whatever 1.5-2 year times. Limited Run releases taking over a year is exceedingly rare, and they crank out dozens of releases per year. Most of the time it's 4-8 months after orders close, though 8-12 months is not uncommon. That's still a long time and I totally get it if people might not want to deal with that though, but it's not as if this is some secret unexpected thing. Order if you are OK with that, don't order if you're not. Trying to tell other people what to do just makes you an overbearing jerk.

[Sumez]

I'd be surprised if PS6 and Microsoft's next gen system aren't download-only machines.

I was surprised when it was revealed that PS4 wasn't.

[kid aphex]

You're one of the few remaining who hasn't gotten the news that this fight was lost a *long* time ago. Have you seen the people of this Earth? Stupid people doing (buying) stupid shit is a core tenant of humanity at this point. People actually buy games that don't even have the GAME inside. It's why I walked away from gaming after the X360, it started getting stupid, and it's gotten dumber every year and will continue to get dumber ad infinitum. If you want to stay in the cesspool that is modern gaming, for your health, you need to accept that the lowest common denominator now dominates and everything harmful to consumers will be adopted and accepted. Once you accept that, you might be able to enjoy it.

Shrug. I still enjoy games, but thank you for the screed.

[Koa Zo]

If people keep giving this shitty company their money, publishers and developers will keep signing with them and _I’LL_ be stuck with them as the only AWFUL option when a physical release pops up that _I_ really want.

So, yeah… in a roundabout way, their continued success fucks me.

Do you really believe that if LRG failed, a company that is less awful would step in to fill the void and start producing physical copies of the games you want? I think you're very naïve if you do. Far more likely that nobody would make a physical copy of that release you really want.

Red Art Games seems to have it figured out OK.
I've only recently become aware of some of their releases, but they seem to get them shipped and distributed without all the excuses that LRG and SLG recycle with each new release.

[cfx]

Red Art Games isn't really a "limited run" company though, making them more of just an independent publisher like PQube. While they make a limited quantity of their games with extra tat, they also make at least some of their releases in an unlimited form that are sold at normal places like Amazon.

I'm also not sure they release things all that much more quickly. Super Zangyura went up for preorder early August and is scheduled for Q1 2024. Assuming it makes that, that's a minumum of 5 months and a maximum of 8 months. They also delayed Sword of the Vagrant, twice if I recall. My only problem with Red Art though is just that they haven't released very many games that I consider worth buying, which maybe is my own taste but they do have a good many that seem like the same kind of shovelware that LRG fills up their schedule with.

Note I'm not defending LRG. I don't like the company and have never and never will buy anything from them. SLG I'll reluctantly deal with if they have something not available in an Asian release that I want.

[XtraSmiley]

It's only a Ponzi scheme if the company is using new money to fulfill older orders. There is no indication that LRG does that now. They may (likely) have done that when they first started, but they seem big enough now that it's more likely they are waiting on manufacturing and shipping and approvals rather than needing fresh money to finish old projects.

The Polymega is a fucking Ponzi scheme, LRG is just slow as shit.

[cfx]

It's only a Ponzi scheme if the company is using new money to fulfill older orders.

Exactly, and claiming what they're doing is illegal is just ludicrous.

There is no indication that LRG does that now. They may (likely) have done that when they first started, but they seem big enough now that it's more likely they are waiting on manufacturing and shipping and approvals rather than needing fresh money to finish old projects.

Nah, unlikely, and it's perhaps one reason they didn't do preorders originally. They had all the games manufactured and in stock up front and then sold them in those staggered click wars over a day or two and as far as I know delivered those in a relatively timely manner though I remember some complaints back then about not overly prompt shipping. As long as they generally sold out of each one, they only had to front the cost of the first one, and then use the proceeds from it to make the next one, etc.

By the time they started the preorder model, they'd been doing that long enough there should have been resources to cover doing the first preorder batch.

Also they're now owned by Embracer Group, which may or may not give them any extra resources to work with, given Embracer's current status.

[bobrocks95]

Red Art Games isn't really a "limited run" company though, making them more of just an independent publisher like PQube. While they make a limited quantity of their games with extra tat, they also make at least some of their releases in an unlimited form that are sold at normal places like Amazon.

If that's your metric, LRG has started doing that as well.

[Koa Zo]

It's only a Ponzi scheme if the company is using new money to fulfill older orders.

Exactly, and claiming what they're doing is illegal is just ludicrous.

Has anyone claimed what they are doing is illegal? Where is that discussion?

And what is described and "exactly'd" here is exactly what we've been saying.

[cfx]

It's only a Ponzi scheme if the company is using new money to fulfill older orders.

Exactly, and claiming what they're doing is illegal is just ludicrous.

Has anyone claimed what they are doing is illegal? Where is that discussion?

In this very thread; maybe you should read it before asking stupid questions?

[...]
Regardless, the incredibly protracted turn-around time makes it obvious they're attempting to run a 'zero-risk' business. In which, the customer's 'pre-order' is being used to cover the manufacturing charges. Not only is this not strictly legal (in that, it ain't legal at all. Just ask Charles Ponzi...), but can easily blow up in everyone's face (just ask the customers of Dispatch Games). If they need the manufacturing costs covered (which they probably don't at this point. But why use your own money if there's people dumb enough to give you theirs?) let them run a Kickstarter like everyone else, even if it means cutting into their precious profit margin.

That discussion claiming they are running a Ponzi scheme has gone on for a while I don't know how you miss it if you read the thread at all.