RetroTink 4K All But Officially Announced ....

[orange808]

Is the new machine 4:4:4?

[bobrocks95]

Is the new machine 4:4:4?

I believe it is: https://twitter.com/WobblingP/status/16 ... 9751415808

Spoiler

[Guspaz]

The RT4K is 4:4:4 exclusively, because Mike never wants to deal with 4:2:2 ever again.

[orange808]

He might add that to the teaser page later. Full chroma is a big selling point for video processors. Looks like this one could put a little pressure on some other offerings in the marketplace. I was thinking about waiting for rotation, but I may not have that luxury. Full chroma 4k60 upscaling can't be had in the projected price range. Should be popular.

Add the robust programmable features and it's a very attractive package.

I hope he adds CGA/EGA RGBI support someday with an adapter on the DE-15/HD-15. It would be great to bypass the Extron and plug in old PC's and the Commodore 128.

[Josh128]

Teaser page has been updated from the initial bit.

https://www.retrotink.com/post/introduc ... trotink-4k

Other Common Questions

[Does it work with MiSTer/Analogue - Yes! The MiSTer direct video mode works great with the RT4K. Analogue consoles may require a little more adjustment, but we expect pre-made profiles to appear in no time.

Rotation -- theoretically possible, but not planned for release.

Smoothing -- same as above.

Movies -- the goal of the TINK products has always been games and games first, but expect to see developments for options to enhance video playback and the movie experience.

Control/Integration -- the RT4K has facilities for control via the HD-15 as well as USB ports. We are planning on some sort of command interface, to be developed post launch.

Does it take TTL sync -- yes on the HD15. SCART port is protected against TTL damage, but would recommend caution as always.

Power -- USB-C 5V 2A.

Is it 4:4:4 -- The RT4K is exclusively RGB444 with an internal deep color processing pipeline and can output deep color HDMI to compatible displays. Sources that are not natively RGB444 (such as composite video) are converted to RGB444 at the front-end.

Is the TINK-5X dead -- we still plan on supporting the TINK-5X and will continue to share development across the two platforms as much as possible. Keep in mind though, that we are still very much a 1-person team

Bob at RetroRGB also has a prototype in hand and calls it the best analog scaler hes ever used, the "Sony BVM" of retro scalers.

https://www.retrorgb.com/retrotink-4k-d ... ealed.html

[Konsolkongen]

The new case design looks great. I never liked the design of the 5X.

[Lord of Pirates]

Teaser page has been updated from the initial bit.

https://www.retrotink.com/post/introduc ... trotink-4k

Bob at RetroRGB also has a prototype in hand and calls it the best analog scaler hes ever used, the "Sony BVM" of retro scalers.

https://www.retrorgb.com/retrotink-4k-d ... ealed.html

It reads like they're dipping a toe in the video scaling market, especially with the mentioned budget.

[orange808]

Teaser page has been updated from the initial bit.

https://www.retrotink.com/post/introduc ... trotink-4k

Bob at RetroRGB also has a prototype in hand and calls it the best analog scaler hes ever used, the "Sony BVM" of retro scalers.

https://www.retrorgb.com/retrotink-4k-d ... ealed.html

It reads like they're dipping a toe in the video scaling market, especially with the mentioned budget.

I enjoy the juxtaposition of your handle and your comment. I might be using that wrong. Maybe it's just the combination.

Anyhow, shop around. I think the price is very reasonable.

Where can a person get a programmable, 4K60, full chroma upscaler with robust signal compatibility, the same physical inputs, and subframe latency in a proper case for $1000usd or less?

You can't.

I suppose you could do a historical comparison for legacy machines when they were bleeding edge, but: if you want to make historical comparisons, make sure to adjust original prices of legacy machines for inflation. You'll find that almost all video processors were significantly more expensive than this when adjusted for inflation.

You'll quickly discover the RT4K is sitting below the initial price of almost any video processor you may have--except for a few outliers. Of course, that cheap Geffen box didn't have frame lock and DVDO already did. The Geffen machines were substandard in that way. The RT4K does not appear to be substandard at all.

It's a video processor, but the price is shaping up to be marvelous. It's a good thing it doesn't ship with support for networked remote control or a VoIP expansion. If it did, this machine could threaten a lot of large gear manufacturers. As is, it could still find it's way into some installations.

[Guspaz]

It doesn't have wifi (and there are AFAIK no plans for that in any RetroTink device ever) but Mike is planning to add some CLI (command-line interface) stuff via the USB and HD15 ports. Once that's done, it will be possible for somebody to build a wifi dongle for it to control it over the network. Routing the USB power through a pi zero w, for example, is a very easy option. If you pair a Pi Zero 2 W with a 2.5A power supply, it will have more than enough power for the RT4K (RT4K currently draws 1A though that's expected to go up over time as Mike pushes the hardware farther), and should also be able to access the RT4K's serial terminal over USB.

[tongshadow]

Teaser page has been updated from the initial bit.

https://www.retrotink.com/post/introduc ... trotink-4k

Bob at RetroRGB also has a prototype in hand and calls it the best analog scaler hes ever used, the "Sony BVM" of retro scalers.

https://www.retrorgb.com/retrotink-4k-d ... ealed.html

It reads like they're dipping a toe in the video scaling market, especially with the mentioned budget.

Mike himself said this is a gaming device first and foremost, if some of its features happen to benefit other types of media then it's more of a happy accident than a deliberate design choice.
Also, while we might prefer sharp scaling for videogame content, I'm not sure whether film buffs would care for this feature because it tends to make the picture more pixelated as opposed the softer look of bilinear scaling performed by TVs. The device looks great, but anyone who's used to the I/O variety of older video scalers/HUBs will probably look elsewhere to meet the needs of their setup.

Again, I'm not criticizing the product, which performs incredibly well and has groundbreaking features . I'm just saying it's targeted for a very specific market, and wont necessarialy compete with scalers made for other purposes in mind.

[Lord of Pirates]

I enjoy the juxtaposition of your handle and your comment. I might be using that wrong. Maybe it's just the combination.

Anyhow, shop around. I think the price is very reasonable.

Where can a person get a programmable, 4K60, full chroma upscaler with robust signal compatibility, the same physical inputs, and subframe latency in a proper case for $1000usd or less?

You can't.

I suppose you could do a historical comparison for legacy machines when they were bleeding edge, but: if you want to make historical comparisons, make sure to adjust original prices of legacy machines for inflation. You'll find that almost all video processors were significantly more expensive than this when adjusted for inflation.

You'll quickly discover the RT4K is sitting below the initial price of almost any video processor you may have--except for a few outliers. Of course, that cheap Geffen box didn't have frame lock and DVDO already did. The Geffen machines were substandard in that way. The RT4K does not appear to be substandard at all.

It's a video processor, but the price is shaping up to be marvelous. It's a good thing it doesn't ship with support for networked remote control or a VoIP expansion. If it did, this machine could threaten a lot of large gear manufacturers. As is, it could still find it's way into some installations.

I think it sounds like a fine processor. It seems like a tough sale if it ends up at $1k, even if the feature set can justify it, when the 5x is under $400.

Mike himself said this is a gaming device first and foremost, if some of its features happen to benefit other types of media then it's more of a happy accident than a deliberate design choice.
Also, while we might prefer sharp scaling for videogame content, I'm not sure whether film buffs would care for this feature because it tends to make the picture more pixelated as opposed the softer look of bilinear scaling performed by TVs. The device looks great, but anyone who's used to the I/O variety of older video scalers/HUBs will probably look elsewhere to meet the needs of their setup.

Again, I'm not criticizing the product, which performs incredibly well and has groundbreaking features . I'm just saying it's targeted for a very specific market, and wont necessarily compete with scalers made for other purposes in mind.

Fair enough.

[VEGETA]

My opinion is that it is very expensive compared to 5x with very little upgrades which does not justify the price difference. I mean, all people should be ok with just 5x or even gbs-c and no reason to go rt4k. when it comes to 1080p\1440p vs 4k is mostly about price since all tvs can deal with 1080p perfectly fine.

mike knows this for sure and which is why he won't cancel the 5x. you can say that 4k60 scalers are already expensive +1k$ in the market but those are targeting another market than retro or even modern gaming. in retro gaming, 300$ is good enough and 400$ is about as high as people are considering "sane" or "worthy".

with that said, the new device will surely sell to some small niche user base and probably won't be popular recurring selling product.

people got to understand that fpgas are really expensive and not optimized for such tasks, one needs very expensive fpga to do high speed signaling which will drive the total cost insanely high. no way around this.

[SGGG2]

If you want Advanced CRT simulation, and why wouldn’t you, this is the only option outside of using a PC capture set up. Surprised to see people discounting this. The feature set is extremely impressive and the price is reasonable, all things considered.

[cfx]

A price approaching $1000 may well be reasonable, but it isn't affordable for me.

In addition, I only have 1080P displays, which I went to a lot of effort to get specifically because I did not want 4K displays, so I do not think this product is for me.

I'm perfectly happy with the scanline options on the Retrotink 5X, and I assume that for 1080P displays what the 4K offers won't really be much different anyway.

[SavagePencil]

I am hoping that this will work with my AES, which the 5X does not. I think that's the only thing making me hang onto my OSSC at this point...

[SGGG2]

Everyone has their own needs and metrics. The great thing about this hobby is quality solutions for all sorts of budgets. The price alone makes this a no for me, but there’s an air in this thread of people who either don’t understand the feature set or are looking to downplay this device in order to justify being unwilling or unable to purchase it. Like RetroRGB Bob said, it’s the BVM of scalers. Do most people NEED a BVM to enjoy games? No.

[bobrocks95]

in retro gaming, 300$ is good enough and 400$ is about as high as people are considering "sane" or "worthy".

Okay I don't see a need to keep trying to convince people who can't afford or don't want to pay for the 4K that it's worth it. That's up to them. But I've gotta chime in and say that anyone into retro games has very likely spent waaaay more than $300-400 on some esoteric piece of equipment or a particularly expensive game or fancy flash carts or a high-end BVM or FW-900...... As someone pointed out the Framemeister was like $600 to import and plenty of people bought those with all their quirks. It's an expensive hobby but people seem to be very particularly calling Mike insane for even making an ~$800 device (that plenty have already said they will buy).

[spmbx]

I'm either staying with PC-based emulation and shaders or getting the 4k, that will depend on a post release comparison. The fact that its 200 or 300 or whatever more expensive than the other scaler is completely irrelevant for me in the bigger picture of hobby-things and costs.

[cfx]

Everyone has their own needs and metrics. The great thing about this hobby is quality solutions for all sorts of budgets. The price alone makes this a no for me, but there’s an air in this thread of people who either don’t understand the feature set or are looking to downplay this device in order to justify being unwilling or unable to purchase it. Like RetroRGB Bob said, it’s the BVM of scalers. Do most people NEED a BVM to enjoy games? No.

In that case it's best to just call it like it is. As far as I see, it's one person doing that, not people and it's all too obvious when it has also spilled over to the 5X thread with the exact same comments.

[VEGETA]

in retro gaming, 300$ is good enough and 400$ is about as high as people are considering "sane" or "worthy".

Okay I don't see a need to keep trying to convince people who can't afford or don't want to pay for the 4K that it's worth it. That's up to them. But I've gotta chime in and say that anyone into retro games has very likely spent waaaay more than $300-400 on some esoteric piece of equipment or a particularly expensive game or fancy flash carts or a high-end BVM or FW-900...... As someone pointed out the Framemeister was like $600 to import and plenty of people bought those with all their quirks. It's an expensive hobby but people seem to be very particularly calling Mike insane for even making an ~$800 device (that plenty have already said they will buy).

I am not trying to convince anyone with anything. I play on CRT and won't be buying anything myself.

I also appreciate designers who make such solutions available to those who need them... just telling people this device is not a mainstream scaler like 5x, it is a niche one directed to certain audience.

[orange808]

What happens when you use 120Hz output with the Tink4k adaptive deinterlacing?

[Fudoh]

What do you want to happen? I would assume the input gets deinterlaced to 60Hz first and then frame doubled to 120Hz.

[orange808]

What do you want to happen? I would assume the input gets deinterlaced to 60Hz first and then frame doubled to 120Hz.

More specifically, I want to see the Time Sleuth latency measurements at 60Hz and results with even frame rate multiplication/duplication.

What do I want? Less latency.

I also noticed Extron HD-HD 4k machines are hitting ebay and trending down (headed for under $1000usd). Interesting timing after the announcement.

[Josh128]

I pointed out a near fatal flaw in the RT4K design, so Mike responded accordingly...

https://twitter.com/retrotink2/status/1 ... 4731714560

[Josh128]

One thing I havent seen discussed yet is 3x 720p using two game and one blank lines, and 2x 1080p with one game and one scanline. This is the real power of a 4K scaler and should deliver quality as good as native display results on any kind of gaming content.

[Bassa-Bassa]

One thing I havent seen discussed yet is 3x 720p using two game and one blank lines, and 2x 1080p with one game and one scanline. This is the real power of a 4K scaler and should deliver quality as good as native display results on any kind of gaming content.

Agreed. Surprised this isn't mentioned anywhere, as it's what really separates this from any other current solution. I wouldn't stop there, though - this should provide a better solution for 720p than 3x with one blank line for every other two; I'd expect masks much like SD content gets from the get-go. There's a good bunch of 720p/768p games (and even some 1080p games as well) where unscaled 2D graphics are the main aspect and getting native resolution displays for those with negligible lag has always been a huge issue.

[tongshadow]

720p content looks extremely sharp on my HD Plasma displays! If the RT4K's mask effect is capable of replicating plasma cells, then it's gonna be a champion for 720p gaming on modern displays.
https://i.imgur.com/q4tQSyO.jpeg

[Bassa-Bassa]

Which is the native resolution of that panel?

[tongshadow]

Which is the native resolution of that panel?

1024x768, but scaling 1280x720 to that still produces very good results, far better than 720p to 1080p, and specially 720p to 4k. I dont think a true 1280x720 panel has ever existed for both LCD and Plasmas.

[Fudoh]

I dont think a true 1280x720 panel has ever existed for both LCD and Plasmas.

there was a 1024x720px panel on 37" Panasonic plasma sets.