RetroTink 4K All But Officially Announced ....

[Wariolicious]

I am well versed in the basic scanlines, have witnessed them as far back as the XRGB days, they pale in comparison to the RT4K PVM L5 scanline emulation on a 4K HDR OLED TV.

After some more testing I actually seem to enjoy the medium slot mask profile and one of the Toshiba ones very much as well. Depends a bit on the game and my mood, I am happy to use either actually.

One thing that surprised me is that some of the profiles seem to actually be emulating that shadow trail effect you see on cheap consumer sets or on any set if you use bad unshielded video cables, I wasn’t expecting that.

I also noticed that the medium slot mask version doesn’t have smooth horizontal scrolling, I had to adjust one of the settings from bilinear sharp to laconzes to fix that.

On the topic of Analogue console scanline emulation vs the RT4K. After understanding how the RT4K and the Nalogue Duo work I managed to make a profile that gets me the same results as if the Duo suppoted the DAC and could do a comparison of CRT emulation via Analogue Duo or via the RT4K.

I have to say I am quite impressed by what Analogue has done, their CRT emulation looks really good, even though it has 1/4th the resolution to work with at 1080p.

To see the finer points of how RT4K and Analogue CRT emulation differ I’d need to do a side by side, which is not possible. But while I was certain the RT4K would blow 1080p crt emulation by Analogue out of the water, I have to say, they are close enough that it is a matter of taste which one prefers.

I was sure you’d need at least 4K to do decent CRT emulation, but that does not seem to be the case.

Cool, mind sharing that profile? I have a hard time getting them to look as good as my consoles through RGB when connected with HDMI and the DAC mode on. It just looks too sharp and a bit "digital", even with Bilinear Soft on, so very interested in your results.

[kamiboy]

I am not home right now, so I cannot share until later, however, I can tell you how I did it and you can try to replicate it. First, go into the Analogue Duo, disable their own CRT emulation, set the sharpness to 3 and disable overscan. Then set the HDMI output to 480p, and then go into the resolution option and slide both vertical and horizontal sliders all the way down. The output resolution should then be 512x224, which is inside a 640x480 window. Now, load up your favourite CRT emulation profile in the RT4K, then go into cropping and scaling, set the scaling to integer auto, and crop -64 pixels from both left and right and -128 from both top and bottom. If you are using one of the CRT profiles that gives you not very smooth scrolling adjust vertical whatever-it-is-called from sharp bilinear to laconzes. Now you should have the same effect as if the Duo was in DAC mode.

A few caveats though, since you are cropping away so much of the image to focus on the raw output resolution large portions of the Analogue OS menus are going to be cropped away as well, which makes navigation a challenge. Come to think of it, this should be fixable by putting the vertical horizontal resolution to two times 224 (448), then setting the top and bottom cropping to -16 and configuring the RT4K to do a 2 to 1 pixel sampling, or whatever it is called. In fact, I think I will go home and adjust my profile to do exactly that to have a less janky profile that people can actually use. I'll see about uploading the profiles here, I'll do one for Slot Mask Medium and one for the PVM L5.

On another note, I got around to test the Analogue NT mini Noir on the RT4K as well yesterday and it just works. It is neat all Analogue consoles with DAC support work optimally with the same profiles. This should include the Duo and even the Pocket once they gain DAC support. The Pocket in particular has a lot of potential given all the cores available for it, and actively being added. I am not sure whether any forthcoming DAC support would extend to automatically work for all the community cores or not. If they do, then, I mean, that little unit could potentially replace all my other Analogue systems, and then some.

[kamiboy]

Here is the final Analogue Duo profile: https://file.io/VysAxfvDKzvc

For it to work set the Analogue Duo HDMI output to 480p and adjust the vertical size to 448 and horizontal size to 512, and do no enable overscan. Leave sharpness on +3 and choose the Analogue output mode, which is to say do not enable any scanline emulation on the Duo itself.

[Wariolicious]

Here is the final Analogue Duo profile: https://file.io/VysAxfvDKzvc

For it to work set the Analogue Duo HDMI output to 480p and adjust the vertical size to 448 and horizontal size to 512, and do no enable overscan. Leave sharpness on +3 and choose the Analogue output mode, which is to say do not enable any scanline emulation on the Duo itself.

Thanks for that! Don't have a Duo yet, but will use it with similar settings on the Pocket TG16 cores and see what the results are. What TV do you have BTW?

[kamiboy]

Not sure this profile will work with the Pocket cores, I do not think the Pocket cores offer the same options and work quite the same was as the Duo in regards to video output and custom resolutions. You will most likely need to change the RT4K parameters by quite a lot to get optimal results from the Pocket. I have yet to connect my pocket to my TV or the RT4K, and I doubt I will want to until Analogue pulls out that finger and provides Analogue DAC support for the Pocket, so I cannot say for sure.

My TV is a 77" 4K LG GX OLED. On that note, my profile has turned on HDR, VRR and Deep Colour, so unless your display matches those capabilities you might not get a picture, hmmmm. I hadn't considered that actually. You might just use the remote resolution change shortcut buttons to change output resolution to something lower then adjust HDMI output accordingly.

Even after tweaking things I get the feeling that there is something about the image from the Duo that is a bit off when compared to, for an example, the Analogue Mega SG in Analogue DAC mode, which looks simply fantastic with the PVM L5 crt profile. For optimal results we are likely going to have to wait until Analogue pulls out the other finger and gives the Duo DAC support as well. Seeing how long it has taken them with the Pocket I wouldn't hold my breath.

[ZellSF]

My TV is a 77" 4K LG GX OLED. On that note, my profile has turned on HDR, VRR and Deep Colour, so unless your display matches those capabilities you might not get a picture, hmmmm. I hadn't considered that actually. You might just use the remote resolution change shortcut buttons to change output resolution to something lower then adjust HDMI output accordingly.

Deep color is listed on the Wiki as a setting known to cause compatibility issues, probably shouldn't have it enabled on any profiles you distribute.

HDR/VRR on the other hand is probably supported on most modern TVs.

[kamiboy]

Fair enough, but I doubt this profile will be useful for many and it will be obsolete the second Analogue releases DAC support for the Duo. I enable deep colour on all my own personal profiles since they work and unless I remember wrong, the colours are much better and accurate to an actual CRT when enabled. At least that was my impression when I had a CRT and the RT4K running the same game, one from the Super NT and the other from a genuine Super Famicom. I was a bit mystified by this actually.

[Guspaz]

Deep colour at 4K60 involves a massive TMDS overclock of ~124%. The RT4K's HDMI transmitter is OK with that (as long as the pixel clock stays under 600 MHz), and LG's OLED TVs are OK with that, but most other devices (AVRs, switches, etc) are not.

The benefit of deep colour is questionable anyway. It's unlikely that anybody is going to notice the difference between 8bpc and 10bpc (considering that the RT4K only supports 8bpc input), especially after a recent firmware added support for spatiotemporal dithering on the output (not enabled by default).

[mrsmiley381]

I noticed that this can do custom output modes. Has anyone tried feeding it 720p with a custom output resolution of 960p, outputting to a DAC to a VGA monitor? Would be neat to have that device chain working to get some awesome PS4/PS5/XONE/XSX action on a CRT without having to go through a recording PC in the middle of the chain. Would also be neat to have the zoom feature work as well to crop the extra meters from something like Battle Garegga on PS4.

[kamiboy]

What would be the benefit of scaling 720p to 960p only to display it on a CRT? 720p directly into the CRT should look the same, if not better. Unless, of course, the CRT doesn't support 720p but somehow does 960p? Not sure how compatible 1280x720p is with your average CRT PC monitor.

Edit:

Found your thread about the big buck hunter thing. I am afraid your scenario might be too niche for anyone to be able to provide a definitive answer.

[mrsmiley381]

What would be the benefit of scaling 720p to 960p only to display it on a CRT? 720p directly into the CRT should look the same, if not better. Unless, of course, the CRT doesn't support 720p but somehow does 960p? Not sure how compatible 1280x720p is with your average CRT PC monitor.

Edit:

Found your thread about the big buck hunter thing. I am afraid your scenario might be too niche for anyone to be able to provide a definitive answer.

Nope, you've got me mixed up with someone else. Problem I have with feeding 720p directly to a VGA CRT with a DAC in the chain is that the CRT forces the 1280x720p image to completely fill the 4:3 area rather than add black bars at the top and bottom. Even with image adjustment on the monitor I cannot force the aspect ratio without having to stretch the horizontal content outside of the viewable area of the screen. There's always a chance that I find one that can do it all properly but I am not holding my breath.

[orange808]

Nope, you've got me mixed up with someone else. Problem I have with feeding 720p directly to a VGA CRT with a DAC in the chain is that the CRT forces the 1280x720p image to completely fill the 4:3 area rather than add black bars at the top and bottom. Even with image adjustment on the monitor I cannot force the aspect ratio without having to stretch the horizontal content outside of the viewable area of the screen. There's always a chance that I find one that can do it all properly but I am not holding my breath.

Start a new thread for this one and describe what you're doing in detail.

Edit:
Since someone else chimed in with a answer, here's my suggestion.

Look up the Extron DVS 605. It has frame lock, one frame of lag (when frame lock is on), and a built in DAC/ADC. I'm pretty sure the DVS 605 is full 4:4:4 as well.

This is the first time I've ever mentioned the machine, so it should be still be very cheap. You really want that frame lock and you won't have to hunt an HDFury Nano DAC. (That means it outputs analog directly to your CRT.)

[strayan]

Problem I have with feeding 720p directly to a VGA CRT with a DAC in the chain is that the CRT forces the 1280x720p image to completely fill the 4:3 area rather than add black bars at the top and bottom. Even with image adjustment on the monitor I cannot force the aspect ratio without having to stretch the horizontal content outside of the viewable area of the screen. There's always a chance that I find one that can do it all properly but I am not holding my breath.

Cheap as chips on ebay, ~1.5 frames lag, make sure it comes with the remote and psu:
https://www.crestron.com/Products/Inact ... /HD-SCALER

As long as the dac and crt have support for 1280x960 this will do what you want.

There are also many other scalers that can do what you want but this is probably the cheapest and most widely available.

[evil_ash_xero]

wrong hardware. delete.

[SavagePencil]

New firmware is up!

https://retrotink-llc.github.io/firmwar ... re/4k.html:

Changelog:

Added XBR Smoothing
Added Enhanced S-video
Improved chroma response/sharpness for regular S-video
Added 3D Comb filter for NTSC composite video
Improved PAL composite and S-video
Improved ability to track and hold poor VHS signals
Improved MiSTer DV/Analogue decimation detection
Minimized glitching during horizontal resolution changes
Added option to blank video during major resolution chanes to minimize visual glitches
Improved S/PDIF detection
Various bug fixes

[Josh128]

New firmware is up!

https://retrotink-llc.github.io/firmwar ... re/4k.html:

Changelog:

Added XBR Smoothing
Added Enhanced S-video
Improved chroma response/sharpness for regular S-video
Added 3D Comb filter for NTSC composite video
Improved PAL composite and S-video
Improved ability to track and hold poor VHS signals
Improved MiSTer DV/Analogue decimation detection
Minimized glitching during horizontal resolution changes
Added option to blank video during major resolution chanes to minimize visual glitches
Improved S/PDIF detection
Various bug fixes

Just further proof Mike is a madman.

[EnragedWhale]

Just out of interest I tried rescaling FF7 rebirths rather soft 60fps mode from 1080p to 4k using the RT4K and it looks basically no different to the PS5 set at 4k to my eyes. Thought it’d be interesting to try.

But what I did confirm is that that the PS5 gives zero fucks about switching its output on the fly to suit the HDMI requirements of the device it’s plugged into. Might be useful for folks wondering about how to wire their setups.

Edit to clarify: the PS5 handles having the RT4K introduced into the chain very well and adjusts its resolution and HDR output back and forth with no fuss.

[bobrocks95]

With temporal AA, dynamic resolutions, a handful of upscaling and reconstruction techniques, and all the other postprocessing in modern games, not surprised it just looked about the same with nearest-neighbor. Don't think it's worth the effort to try and route the PS5 into the Tink since it can only accept 1080p60 on its HDMI input.

[EnragedWhale]

I’m splitting my HDMI output using a HDMI 2.1 compatible receiver. Both outputs going to the same display but the 2nd one runs through the RT4K. I never really intended to run any modern 4K console through the tink but this setup allowed me to keep the receiver behind the scaler without having to use EARC for any for anything other than the basic stereo formats my pre HDMI consoles output. But what this does allow me to do is introduce the RT4K into the chain by simple powering it on and changing the HDMI input on the TV. What I was most surprised by was how happily the PS5 accepts this and just switches to 1080p w/o HDR automatically mid game. Turn the tink off and it just goes right back to 4k HDR with only a brief black screen.

I disagree that there is no reason to run a PS5 through the RT4K. Sure it’s not helpful for modern 3D stuff but there are plenty of pixel art games in its and the PS4 library, retro collections etc that are fun to add CRT effects to or simply rescale better. With a HDMI 2.1 splitter it’s not that much hassle.

[bobrocks95]

Oh I thought you meant the PS5 would make no effort to switch resolutions based on EDID. I also would have thought that the Tink being plugged in at all, since it's always technically on (HDMI input is always shown as available for me, unlike other devices), would have disabled 4K/HDR on the PS5.

That does sound pretty seamless if you want to experiment with scanlines on retro styled games.

[EnragedWhale]

Ah yeah I’ve worried my original post badly, I’ll add an edit. I mostly just wanted to inform people that they wouldn’t have to keep messing with the PS5 output settings if they temporarily switched an RT4K to the chain.

Yeah I’ve noticed the Tinks output is always available on my display. But it seems the HDMI input isn’t visible to the output device when it’s powered down. At least that’s the case with my Denon receiver.

[Guspaz]

With temporal AA, dynamic resolutions, a handful of upscaling and reconstruction techniques, and all the other postprocessing in modern games, not surprised it just looked about the same with nearest-neighbor. Don't think it's worth the effort to try and route the PS5 into the Tink since it can only accept 1080p60 on its HDMI input.

The new FF7R is notorious for having decided that non-integer nearest-neighbour scaling was appropriate for a modern game's "performance" mode. They were doing some sort of insanely blurry upscale (like, so soft it looked like a gaussian blur filter) and people complained, so their response was to just switch it to nearest-neighbour (and not at an integer ratio). Which hasn't been an appropriate way to scale a game for 30 years now.

I understand that this may have been improved in the latest patch, but Square Enix doesn't appear to understand how computer graphics work.