TATE Astro mini with Batrider, Batsugun, Outzone and more!

[it290]

Got mine last night, and so far it's been kinda rough going, though not a total dumpster fire. The lag is indeed quite noticeable on every title, but it does seem to vary quite a bit, at least in my early impressions. Outzone and Batsugun for example feel like I could get used to them, comparable thus far to Giga Wing on CAS, while Armed Police Batrider feels downright awful, bordering on a waste of time to even play. With further testing, I would not be surprised to see some titles coming in around 6-7 frames, with others pushing 8-10.

What kind of power supply are you using? I've been wondering if this is a similar situation to the Egret where using an anemic PSU can increase lag.

[Jonpachi]

Got mine last night, and so far it's been kinda rough going, though not a total dumpster fire. The lag is indeed quite noticeable on every title, but it does seem to vary quite a bit, at least in my early impressions. Outzone and Batsugun for example feel like I could get used to them, comparable thus far to Giga Wing on CAS, while Armed Police Batrider feels downright awful, bordering on a waste of time to even play. With further testing, I would not be surprised to see some titles coming in around 6-7 frames, with others pushing 8-10.

What kind of power supply are you using? I've been wondering if this is a similar situation to the Egret where using an anemic PSU can increase lag.

The cable it came with, plugged directly into a power strip that has USB ports.

[Bassa-Bassa]

Got mine last night, and so far it's been kinda rough going, though not a total dumpster fire. The lag is indeed quite noticeable on every title, but it does seem to vary quite a bit, at least in my early impressions. Outzone and Batsugun for example feel like I could get used to them, comparable thus far to Giga Wing on CAS, while Armed Police Batrider feels downright awful, bordering on a waste of time to even play. With further testing, I would not be surprised to see some titles coming in around 6-7 frames, with others pushing 8-10.

Are you really this same guy?

A gift full of latency once again. I read elsewhere that Famitsu got their hands on one and the lag was noticeable through HDMI. If a journo can notice it, hmm...

The lag police are onto me!

I'm not saying we shouldn't note these concerns, and rate the quality of emulation across releases, but I personally find these things completely playable. I was able to 1CC a ton of games on the TurboGrafx/PC Engine and Megadrive minis, and also found the first Astro City mini to be well within an acceptable level of latency.

Again, yes, let's note when things are amiss, but I think we've gotten a bit mired in this debate. The disciples of the Electric Underground are coming for the head of anything 5 frames or above, and it's getting repetitive.

Also, wait, is THIS the quote you're referencing?

"The delay of the external output is something that can't be helped. I think that if you are a super-working person, you will probably feel it, but for me, it doesn't bother me at all. However, it's still a little different from the feeling when playing with an actual arcade cabinet."

I mean, ok. Order cancelled!

[BrianC]

Here's a more extensive lag test. Not looking good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFCfXwAYuuk

This guy seems to hate on it, though! RetroCore seemed to have few issues with it. I am sure it will be good enough for my non-hardcore ways!

I'm not sure about that test. It could be my eyes playing tricks, but a couple of times I saw movement before he counted the number of frames.

[Steven]

I got both of my style kits today in the same box. Amazon's doing some weird shit with the shipping for these things for sure. I doubt that I will actually store money in them, but they look nice. They make the systems a bit too tall to actually play on while sitting at my desk, though.

Here's a more extensive lag test. Not looking good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFCfXwAYuuk

This guy seems to hate on it, though! RetroCore seemed to have few issues with it. I am sure it will be good enough for my non-hardcore ways!

I'm not sure about that test. It could be my eyes playing tricks, but a couple of times I saw movement before he counted the number of frames.

You definitely saw movement because I did as well.

Maybe it's just me, and maybe it isn't, but after trying both the arcade stick and the weird little Astro City Mini controller, I almost feel like the controller results in the best performance, but I am not sure, as I don't have a way to actually test lag. Maybe someone who has that stuff will do it.

I tried Tatsujin Ou on regular MAME 0.240 again using the Astro City Mini arcade stick and MAME does seem to perform slightly but noticeably better. I'm not sure what version of MAME is the best or how to configure MAME properly, though, so maybe there's some better version that I don't know about.

[near_miss]

I got mine day one, in Tokyo, delivered on time. I think... the lag varies game to game, and I honestly don't notice when I'm playing my faves. Saying it's equal across all games seems absurd to me, unless they are testing the originals and somehow they all had the exact same response time.

Tatsujin I have the hardest time with, just tested part 2 and it seems to have significant but not unworkable delay after movements. One thing I was wondering tho, is after picking up speed power ups it seemed less of an issue - could the game be calculating some degree of inertia vs 0-1 speed? Asking if anyone is familiar with the series?

For Batsugun, I perform much better at from the first try, have been able to clear the first stage no miss (some more fine dodging for the boss) multiple times. I am not familiar with the game, so am not sure if there's like a way better version (I assume so) but it certainly didn't feel lacking.

I'm surprised to hear about Batrider, I thought that ran well enough - and I just suck at it? Haha, I see improvement there too, but it hasn't seemed like I've died to lag, more like bullet traps/bad positioning.

and... Battle Bakraid seems to run pretty solid. I can see steady improvement in my own gameplay which makes me wonder if I subconsciously got used to it, or if it's just so minuscule not to be much of an issue.

I compared this against my M2 port of Ketsui (deathtiny) moments after - and obviously that runs beautifully, but I'm not really feeling the lag in BB - it feels harder to see, seems more like a mental bias.

I'm hoping there will be proper tests for lag, tho hey, it's not going to stop me from playing, at least until I can afford to snag a pcb down the line! Curious what other players think and experience.

Oh and I did feel more noticeable lag when plugging into a TV, although I suppose that's really down to the guts of the individual tv themselves, so I expect everyone to have different results there. If I can get a screen with as "good" latency as the unit itself, I think it'd be pretty playable.

[cvaniafan]

If Bakraid works and is decently playable on external screen with the Mini controller, that's enough to justify the purchase

[m.sniffles.esq]

*sigh*

Does anyone get wistful for the pre-2015 days when the word "lag" would occur on forums like this maybe once every two months instead of 12 times a day?

[Buffi]

*sigh*

Does anyone get wistful for the pre-2015 days when the word "lag" would occur on forums like this maybe once every two months instead of 12 times a day?

I mean, on this particular device, it really seems unplayably bad so its not surprising that theres complaints.

Just look at this vid
https://mobile.twitter.com/moftsoft/sta ... 2420741120

[m.sniffles.esq]

I mean, on this particular device, it really seems unplayably bad so its not surprising that theres complaints

I understand. But then again, it's a novelty mini arcade cabinet...

If there's a port that's especially erroneous, I completely understand wanting to warn the consumer and take the dev to task. But this thing is a toy. I don't think anyone is expecting an arcade-perfect experience for smurfs.

[banjoted]

*sigh*

Does anyone get wistful for the pre-2015 days when the word "lag" would occur on forums like this maybe once every two months instead of 12 times a day?

I'm certain that lag didn't use to define the debate in the way it does now. Like, I really like Mark as a guy and appreciate what he's doing on Electric Underground, but the way he's helped to create this absolute obsession with lag within the fandom is frustrating. I've lost count of the number of times I've been really enjoying a release only to later learn that it's apparently an "unplayable mess" because that's the narrative the hive mind have decided on.

[SeeNoWeevil]

Releasing old games *only* on mini hardware is obnoxious and I hate Sega for it. There are games on the Astro City Mini that I cannot play on my bigscreen without resorting to piracy or buying a whole new device (often with substandard input delay). That's ridiculous.

[Ghegs]

*sigh*

Does anyone get wistful for the pre-2015 days when the word "lag" would occur on forums like this maybe once every two months instead of 12 times a day?

I'm certain that lag didn't use to define the debate in the way it does now. Like, I really like Mark as a guy and appreciate what he's doing on Electric Underground, but the way he's helped to create this absolute obsession with lag within the fandom is frustrating. I've lost count of the number of times I've been really enjoying a release only to later learn that it's apparently an "unplayable mess" because that's the narrative the hive mind have decided on.

If you're enjoying a release and somebody else doesn't like it, it shouldn't detract from your enjoyment of it. Like what you like, ignore the naysayers.

[Jonpachi]

Just wanted to clarify, as I get that I'm perhaps coming across as hypocritical.

I personally did not spend $250 on this thing to have it sitting as some executive desk toy. I bought it to play, but I did so with clear expectations that it's not going to be some M2-level experience. I remember when the TG16/PC Engine Mini came out and many claimed it was unplayable, yet I personally had a shitload of fun with that thing and was able to 1CC a half dozen games on the console. Same with the Megadrive mini, and the games on CAS as well. I went into this one optimistic, and didn't think that a single line from a Famitsu review, or a half-baked video were something we should burn the house down over.

Yet, I said from the beginning, "Let's note when things are amiss, but I think we've gotten a bit mired in this debate." I very much want to know what I'm getting and how it performs, but I don't think we should shame anyone for wanting it, and what I find obnoxious and repetitive is that there always seems to be a few people that will swoop in and start shitting on others with comments like "Enjoy the lag!" before any comprehensive testing or hands-on impressions are out yet.

As a player, I'm pretty accepting of a certain level of lag, but there is absolutely a breaking point where I feel like I'm wasting my time. I recently spent a good amount of time with Giga Wing on CAS (Switch), one of the laggier games on the collection, and got to a point where my brain had adjusted and I was able to play it well enough to squeak out a 1CC. Conversely, I tried to do the same with Guardian Force on the Saturn Tribute pack and couldn't see myself really putting in serious hours on something that I felt I was constantly fighting against so hard.

To me so far, this set falls very much into a range between Giga Wing CAS (playable but laggy) and Guardian Force Saturn Tribute (waste of time to spend serious play hours on). I've been doing daily sessions now on Batsugun and it feels pretty acceptable. V-V, Outzone, and some others do as well. Sadly, the Raizing games so far seem to suffer the most, and I'd be super excited to see a comprehensive lag test of more games than just Tatsujin.

To wrap up: If you're enjoying this thing, have fun. I certainly am! I welcome any/all real impressions and tests, but I'm also excited to talk more about individual titles and strategies and get into the meat of these titles.

[Tarma]

If Bakraid works and is decently playable on external screen with the Mini controller, that's enough to justify the purchase

This.

[lovecraft]

What is disappointing from Sega in this matter is that if there was a single detail of importance to take care of on this particular product, it was clearly to offer a game experience with an input-lag as reduced as possible.
I mean this is a Mini dedicated to shoot-them-ups, and that incredible games list is definitely for experts of the genre, not for "kids" ! So the input-lag aspect is really the most important about this product... There was room for an extremely attractive product, but in the end, if the input-lag is too perceptible, it comes down to a beautiful decorative object for gamers, which is a shame.

[Rastan78]

Source:
https://twitter.com/moftsoft/status/155 ... Iyt0w&s=19

Apparently it's about the same or worse running out to an LG OLED.

Not looking good for Batrider and Bakraid.

[Steven]

Those are some pretty horrible numbers. For how much this thing costs, which is nearly double the price of the original Astro City Mini, this is quite disappointing, although I suppose the price increase is likely due to licensing or maybe component shortages. Mikado's got to stay in business somehow; the place is empty as fuck almost every time that I go there, so hopefully Sega gave them a nice stack of cash for their involvement with this thing. Mikado's owner dude Ikeda Minorock also wrote the Japanese descriptions for the games in the menu, but I wonder how/why he never said anything to Sega about this lag, as he played the thing live on Mikado's Youtube channel a few times. Maybe he did and Sega gave him the middle finger. Who knows... too late now.

[lovecraft]

In the end, the Astro City Mini is a great tool for reviewing the different usb AC adapters available on the market
See here: https://youtu.be/MziaZNFkIR4

[SeeNoWeevil]

In the end, the Astro City Mini is a great tool for reviewing the different usb AC adapters available on the market
See here: https://youtu.be/MziaZNFkIR4

https://youtu.be/MziaZNFkIR4?t=51

The lag is pretty obvious from this clip.

[Bassa-Bassa]

I went into this one optimistic, and didn't think that a single line from a Famitsu review, or a half-baked video were something we should burn the house down over.

As I said, if a Famitsu journalist could notice it (and is allowed to mention it in the review), you'd better expect the worst case scenario. And there it is.

It's fair enough if anybody still wants to love the thing as it is, but as this thread shows, many were blindedly hoping for something a bit more polished just for being a Sega product marketed as a hardcore device, and will easily regret the purchase. But then the emoji brigade forbid any discussion with a condescending line, so it was a whatever.

[lovecraft]

In the end, the Astro City Mini is a great tool for reviewing the different usb AC adapters available on the market
See here: https://youtu.be/MziaZNFkIR4

https://youtu.be/MziaZNFkIR4?t=51

The lag is pretty obvious from this clip.

Yeah... If this is because of the USB power adapter, then SEGA should at least recommend the best suitable one for this hardware.
It's surprising that they left this defect as it is before launching production and marketing.

[Jonpachi]

Here's one of the better gameplay videos I've seen so far (at least someone actually playing and not just smashing in credits).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stRejBvEbRQ

[Buffi]

Here's one of the better gameplay videos I've seen so far (at least someone actually playing and not just smashing in credits).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stRejBvEbRQ

Haha damn, yeah the input lag is real obvious in that video as well. Seems like a total mess in terms of playability but will look good on the shelf at least I guess.

[lovecraft]

At least the Astro City Mini will force your brain to anticipate the enemy shots, you will become even stronger at these games.

[Ghegs]

Got mine this morning, a day earlier than expected. Nice.

I'm gonna have to say that I wish I could mute the SEEEGAAA and "Astro City Mini...V!" announcements when booting up the system. They would be fine IF they came out of the proper output, ie. external when I have the HDMI cable plugged in, but they don't, they come out of the system's own speakers always. That's annoying as hell. I'm probably never going to use the system itself to play the games, it'll always be with HDMI out and a separate controller.

And speaking of which, I was surprised to discover that the Egret II Mini's control pad does not work with this. I assumed that it would, since the Astro City Mini's control pad works with the Egret II Mini just fine, the one extra button on the Egret II Mini notwithstanding. I'm gonna to have to consider buying another Astro City Mini pad just so I don't have to switch my one controller from the hori system to the tate system.

The menu system is dumb and the worst I've seen in a mini system yet. Listing the games only by their release year was a poor choice even in the first Astro City Mini, but with that you could see the names of ~12 games all at once, in plain English in a clear font, so it's easy to find the game you want. With Mini V you only see 5 games at a time, and they're often very stylized logos, so it's much more cumbersome, compounded by the fact that the system doesn't remember the last game you played (neither does the first Mini, to be fair). And there's no sorting options at all, again like with the first Mini.

The Egret II Mini could sort by title and release year, and had the possibility of marking games as favorites. The console Minis (checked SNES, Megadrive, and PCE Minis while writing this) each remember the last game played and have many sorting options, from title, to release year, to number of players, time spent, etc. The user experience of the Mini V certainly leaves something to be desired, even at the menu stage.

But finally, about the games. This is actually the first time I have access to a lot of these. I was very pleasantly surprised by V-V, that was more of a my kind of shmup. Dogyuun felt interesting too, though I have no idea what was going on. Out Zone I had a familiarity with, I had the PCB for a while, and it was one of the main reasons I purchased this device. Desert Breaker was one I was looking forward to trying out, but my initial impressions aren't very favorable (but climbing into the mech-thing and doing the THRUST ATTACK looks utterly hilarious). Why was my gameplay constantly interrupted by what looked like tutorial message boxes? Shame this one doesn't have an English version available, some of the games do.

All those games played just fine in my opinion. I even did some reaction-dodging in Same! so the lag can't too horrible there either. Based on the list of response times Rastan78 posted earlier, I tried to find the cut-off point where the games started to feel bad for me. For convenience, here's that list sorted by the response time:

Spoiler

R=Title&ms R=Moon Cresta&83.7 R=Terra Cresta&116.7 R=Raiden&116.7 R=Zaxxon&120.8 R=Cosmo Police Gallivan&121.2 R=Desert Breaker&121.3 R=Tatsujin&129.2 R=Out Zone&129.6 R=Batsugun&133.3 R=Wrestle War&133.7 R=Dogyuun&137.9 R=V-V&137.9 R=Same! Same! Same!&141.7 R=Shippu Mahou Daisakusen&142.1 R=Tatsujin Ou&146.3 R=Sonic Wings&150.4 R=Samurai Aces&150.4 R=Strikers 1945&150.8 R=Action Fighter&158.7 R=Battle Bakraid&158.8 R=Gunbird&162.9 R=Armed Police Batrider&167.1

I think for me the cut-off point is either Shippu Mahou or Tatsujn Ou, in those I can feel the lag if I really pay attention to it, but the games still feel playable. Bakraid and Batrider definitely felt iffy to me, though I thought Gunbird felt about the same as Sonic Wings or Strikers 1945, so I wouldn't treat those numbers as gospel.

To me Bakraid and Batrider were never the main attraction of the system, though I understand they were to many, but I'm content with the device. It's definitely not perfect, but I can't call it a dumpster fire either.

[DenimDemon]

Just wanted to clarify, as I get that I'm perhaps coming across as hypocritical.

I personally did not spend $250 on this thing to have it sitting as some executive desk toy. I bought it to play, but I did so with clear expectations that it's not going to be some M2-level experience. I remember when the TG16/PC Engine Mini came out and many claimed it was unplayable, yet I personally had a shitload of fun with that thing and was able to 1CC a half dozen games on the console. Same with the Megadrive mini, and the games on CAS as well. I went into this one optimistic, and didn't think that a single line from a Famitsu review, or a half-baked video were something we should burn the house down over.

Yet, I said from the beginning, "Let's note when things are amiss, but I think we've gotten a bit mired in this debate." I very much want to know what I'm getting and how it performs, but I don't think we should shame anyone for wanting it, and what I find obnoxious and repetitive is that there always seems to be a few people that will swoop in and start shitting on others with comments like "Enjoy the lag!" before any comprehensive testing or hands-on impressions are out yet.

As a player, I'm pretty accepting of a certain level of lag, but there is absolutely a breaking point where I feel like I'm wasting my time. I recently spent a good amount of time with Giga Wing on CAS (Switch), one of the laggier games on the collection, and got to a point where my brain had adjusted and I was able to play it well enough to squeak out a 1CC. Conversely, I tried to do the same with Guardian Force on the Saturn Tribute pack and couldn't see myself really putting in serious hours on something that I felt I was constantly fighting against so hard.

To me so far, this set falls very much into a range between Giga Wing CAS (playable but laggy) and Guardian Force Saturn Tribute (waste of time to spend serious play hours on). I've been doing daily sessions now on Batsugun and it feels pretty acceptable. V-V, Outzone, and some others do as well. Sadly, the Raizing games so far seem to suffer the most, and I'd be super excited to see a comprehensive lag test of more games than just Tatsujin.

To wrap up: If you're enjoying this thing, have fun. I certainly am! I welcome any/all real impressions and tests, but I'm also excited to talk more about individual titles and strategies and get into the meat of these titles.

250 bucks?

[Jonpachi]

I paid $238 USD with tax and shipping fees

[DenimDemon]

I paid $238 USD with tax and shipping fees

I see , I believe it was way cheaper for me since I bought from my HK bank account.


Anyway the thing just arrived I think people must be smoking something. So many lag tests etc and in 20 minutes my experience went from shitty to sublime.

Once out of the box I used my son’s mobile charge cable and plugged into a multiple USB adapter and to the mini V.

The mini wouldn’t even turn on. The green bar light would flash for a second when I tried to turn on but wouldn’t actually power on. Changed the cable, same result. Tried to power on again… and voila, it turned on. Booted Raiden,if there is a game I know goddam well in the pack, is Raiden.
The lag was immediately obvious. To the point of being nearly unplayable. Tried Strikers. The same. All the games felt super heavy to control.
Plugged my Mega Drive Mini (JP) pads and the lag was still brutal.

And now pay attention guys.

I went and tried my Pi3 AC power supply.
And boy the diference was astonishing. Raiden felt goddamn great. Even just scrolling down the game list was immediately apparent how much snappy it felt. The few games I tried felt much, much better to control. All this time I was playing on the Mini V LCD btw.

Decided to try the HDMI output and Raiden still felt pretty good with the Rasperry adapter powering on the Astro Mini.
Scanlines looked terrible UNTIL I TATED my home monitor….the scanlines (option 2) look actually fantastic while in HDMI out on my Tated computer monitor.
Too bad the wallpaper is grey, would prefer if they added a black wp option.

I’m gonna mess a bit more with it and post further impressions but so far THE RASPERRY PI AC MADE ALL THE DIFFERENCE.
THE SCANLINES LOOK GREAT (2 - first option is too dark) IF YOU USE A TATE MODE.

UPDATE : Scanlines look good in Tate but on bright games/backgrounds you can see 2 scan bars on the image. Kinda shitty but actually not that bad.

[banjoted]

I paid $238 USD with tax and shipping fees

I see , I believe it was way cheaper for me since I bought from my HK bank account.


Anyway the thing just arrived I think people must be smoking something. So many lag tests etc and in 20 minutes my experience went from shitty to sublime.

Once out of the box I used my son’s mobile charge cable and plugged into a multiple USB adapter and to the mini V.

The mini wouldn’t even turn on. The green bar light would flash for a second when I tried to turn on but wouldn’t actually power on. Changed the cable, same result. Tried to power on again… and voila, it turned on. Booted Raiden,if there is a game I know goddam well in the pack, is Raiden.
The lag was immediately obvious. To the point of being nearly unplayable. Tried Strikers. The same. All the games felt super heavy to control.
Plugged my Mega Drive Mini (JP) pads and the lag was still brutal.

And now pay attention guys.

I went and tried my Pi3 AC power supply.
And boy the diference was astonishing. Raiden felt goddamn great. Even just scrolling down the game list was immediately apparent how much snappy it felt. The few games I tried felt much, much better to control. All this time I was playing on the Mini V LCD btw.

Decided to try the HDMI output and Raiden still felt pretty good with the Rasperry adapter powering on the Astro Mini.
Scanlines looked terrible UNTIL I TATED my home monitor….the scanlines (option 2) look actually fantastic while in HDMI out on my Tated computer monitor.
Too bad the wallpaper is grey, would prefer if they added a black wp option.

I’m gonna mess a bit more with it and post further impressions but so far THE RASPERRY PI AC MADE ALL THE DIFFERENCE.
THE SCANLINES LOOK GREAT (2 - first option is too dark) IF YOU USE A TATE MODE.

UPDATE : Scanlines look good in Tate but on bright games/backgrounds you can see 2 scan bars on the image. Kinda shitty but actually not that bad.

Interesting. I've been getting on OK with my unit but out of sheer curiosity I've ordered a Pi power supply just to see what difference it potentially makes.