Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/21

[GFoyle]

Damn, after City Connection bought ZeroDiv, I have been really sceptical with each new release as you never know, which team have been responsible. This one seems to scream of ZeroDiv team work, but who knows. I wasn't too crazy about Game Paradise from City Connection either, it is fine what comes to input lag, but I'm it's not that great what comes to features or graphical options that would have made it look at least a bit better on modern screens. I fear for the worst what comes to the Deathsmiles collection... I wonder does CAVE have power to prevent it from being released in a bad shape, I hope so (and I hope they enforce it)

Wrapping the emulation with Unity is even worse, I still haven't seen a good example where that would have worked well without adding input lag (Vasara Collection being the worst offender I know, which is really bad on Switch and not perfect on PS4 either...).

Switch is/seems to be challenging what comes to input lag, but there have been plenty of example where good devs have made it work, M2 releases, Beeb with Cotton Reboot, Mushi and Espgaluda 2 by LiveWire, Crimzon Clover and plenty of others too (maybe not always parity with other platform, but getting the input lag down to 3-4 frames is still good and I can live with 5 too). At this point, Switch cannot be used as excuse for have 6+ frames of input lag.

I have the PS4 release on it's way, but I'm ready to be disappointed ...

btw. Guardian Force doesn't have the greatest record what comes to input lag. Not sure how much Saturn version had, but the arcade version was bad, you basically need to have Trap's mod to get it down to something like 4 frames (I have played it plenty enough in the arcade with that mode included).

[lovecraft]

I wasn't too crazy about Game Paradise from City Connection either, it is fine what comes to input lag, but I'm it's not that great what comes to features or graphical options that would have made it look at least a bit better on modern screens.

In TATE mode, the upscaling image process in the 2D Psikyo ports by ZeroDiv was really bad, blurry and dull colors... No comparison with the crisp image output from the original arcade boards running on the same lcd TV through a Supergun with a cheap upscaler.

[harborline765]

Yeah, I haven't tried Guardian Force yet (waiting for my physical copy to come in) but I'm expecting the worst for it. If they can't improve the latency problems, hopefully they can improve some of the visual presentation with the games. As mentioned earlier, there are no image filters other than a blur and there's no interpolation leading to pixel crawling artifacts, which isn't ideal. The actual game overlay is quite nice, however, and I like how it stores scores to submit to the online rankings on the right hand side. To submit your scores requires quitting online ranking mode entirely, which I like.

Looking forward to reading your PS4 impressions!

[trap15]

Bought Guardian Force on PS4 (just using normal DS4 wireless) just to give it a shot and see what it's like. More input lag than the arcade version (which was already 6f; I haven't tried the Saturn version but that might be 5 due to how the arcade version's input lag works). Hard to tell how much just on feeling since it's already so high. If I had to guess probably 1 or 2 more than arcade version, so around 7 or 8... it's pretty uncomfortable. Definitely hoping they'll do something about the input lag in the future, it's not an especially difficult thing to improve by a couple frames (it'd still be bad, but not this bad). You can tell how bad it is literally immediately after starting the game, the in-game menus are super obviously input lagged out to hell and back (the UI menus are nice and snappy though!)

On the up-side, the graphics options are fine enough to me, no serious pixel shimmering and no full-screen smear-fest, so it's doing better than some ports in that sense.

[Sima Tuna]

Is it like the other zerodiv ports that lack any kind of practice options or save states?

[trap15]

It has save-states and rewind, as mentioned in nearly every PR they've put out about the collection.

[harborline765]

Bought Guardian Force on PS4 (just using normal DS4 wireless) just to give it a shot and see what it's like. More input lag than the arcade version (which was already 6f; I haven't tried the Saturn version but that might be 5 due to how the arcade version's input lag works). Hard to tell how much just on feeling since it's already so high. If I had to guess probably 1 or 2 more than arcade version, so around 7 or 8... it's pretty uncomfortable. Definitely hoping they'll do something about the input lag in the future, it's not an especially difficult thing to improve by a couple frames (it'd still be bad, but not this bad). You can tell how bad it is literally immediately after starting the game, the in-game menus are super obviously input lagged out to hell and back (the UI menus are nice and snappy though!)

On the up-side, the graphics options are fine enough to me, no serious pixel shimmering and no full-screen smear-fest, so it's doing better than some ports in that sense.

Thanks for checking! Yeah, my heart sunk as soon as I navigated that title screen menu, very laggy.

Good to hear the port’s overlay menu is snappy like on Switch, that implies the Unity wrapper isn’t necessarily the culprit but the emulation is. Hopefully they can make the emulation more responsive but the Baroque port on Switch had similar latency. 30fps game though. But the overlay (not Unity) was very responsive compared with the game itself, and what I’m used to playing my Saturn copy.

[BulletMagnet]

Some of the promo blurbs for these games have mentioned that they make use of the "specially-developed 'Zebra Engine'" - is there any additional info out there on what exactly said engine was built for, and if they plan to use it for anything else?

[lovecraft]

Some of the promo blurbs for these games have mentioned that they make use of the "specially-developed 'Zebra Engine'" - is there any additional info out there on what exactly said engine was built for, and if they plan to use it for anything else?

According to Netageo ( https://youtu.be/e09-_bHi4ww?t=486 ), the 'Zebra Engine' has been developed for "Game Tengoku CruisinMix" by Nozomu Akiyama who was the main programmer from the JALECO staff of the original arcade and Saturn versions of "Game Tengoku".
The 'Zebra Engine' is a reproduction of the Sega Saturn source code intended to work on modern consoles, it emulates the Saturn behaviour and facilitates the addition of new options, characters, etc.

[BulletMagnet]

Hmm, thanks for cluing me in; I wonder if they have their eyes on any other Saturn/ST-V stuff. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

[BrianC]

My PS4 version arrived today. I'm going to attempt a comparison with the original Cotton 2 disc on an actual Saturn. Interesting, there's already an 1.02 update.

Edit: I tried the game. Input lag is horrible with anti-aliasing on and much closer to the original with it off. Definitely turn AA off! It adds at least a frame of lag. All three games seemed to be nice and responsive with it off (even Guardian Force felt much nicer), though still slightly more lag than the original Cotton 2 (only game I have to compare).

[Jonpachi]

My PS4 version arrived today. I'm going to attempt a comparison with the original Cotton 2 disc on an actual Saturn. Interesting, there's already an 1.02 update.

Edit: I tried the game. Input lag is horrible with anti-aliasing on and much closer to the original with it off. Definitely turn AA off! It adds at least a frame of lag. All three games seemed to be nice and responsive with it off (even Guardian Force felt much nicer), though still slightly more lag than the original Cotton 2 (only game I have to compare).

Still waiting on my Switch copy, but this is at least the first hopeful news. I'm not as sensitive to input lag as some players, so I'm hoping I can adjust. Do they straight up call it "anti-aliasing" in the options?

[BrianC]

My PS4 version arrived today. I'm going to attempt a comparison with the original Cotton 2 disc on an actual Saturn. Interesting, there's already an 1.02 update.

Edit: I tried the game. Input lag is horrible with anti-aliasing on and much closer to the original with it off. Definitely turn AA off! It adds at least a frame of lag. All three games seemed to be nice and responsive with it off (even Guardian Force felt much nicer), though still slightly more lag than the original Cotton 2 (only game I have to compare).

Still waiting on my Switch copy, but this is at least the first hopeful news. I'm not as sensitive to input lag as some players, so I'm hoping I can adjust. Do they straight up call it "anti-aliasing" in the options?

Yes. Funny thing is that the setting actually has "Valid/Invalid" instead of "Off/On". I'm not the most sensitive to input lag either, but I notice it enough to know when something is amiss at the flagpole in SMB1.

[BulletMagnet]

Do they straight up call it "anti-aliasing" in the options?

My copy arrived just a bit ago as well, and yeah, that's what they call it; it's the only visual option aside from big/small game window and wallpapers. A few additional early impressions, keeping in mind that it's been some time since I played the Saturn originals:

- Cotton 2 features the "RAM found" message in the corner of the title screen, so the extra voices are there; moreover, the options to play as Appli and assign command attacks to single buttons are available from the start, IIRC you originally needed to unlock those. Saturn Mode is present as well.

- As BrianC noted there have been 1.01 and 1.02 updates; the accompanying text is in Japanese (trophies are English, though) but it's the same for both, so I assume it's just "minor bug fixes" or something like that.

- Controller buttons can be freely reassigned, though it might take a little experimentation since they designate them by their equivalents on the Saturn pad, not their in-game function.

- Not sure if it's a bug or I'm missing something, but both the tutorial images and wallpapers seem to repeat, i.e. the tutorial says it has 8 pages to scroll through but it's just the same 4 pages twice for some odd reason.

[trap15]

Did some latency testing on Guardian Force PS4. The port's menu seems to be around 4 frames of latency (not good) and then in-game is 10 or 11 based on anti-alias setting. Seems to me like the menu latency is the general program's added latency, plus the original game's 6, plus 1 for AA on. Pretty dire, really hope they do something to improve this at all... Unity is capable of 2 frames, and it's not hard to hack 2 frames off the game, so they could at least hit parity with the original if they put a bit of work into it.

Funny thing is that the setting actually has "Valid/Invalid" instead of "Off/On"

Just a bad translation quirk, no special meaning.

- As BrianC noted there have been 1.01 and 1.02 updates; the accompanying text is in Japanese (trophies are English, though) but it's the same for both, so I assume it's just "minor bug fixes" or something like that.

The 1.01 for Guardian Force says "fixed minor issues", which is very specific.

- Controller buttons can be freely reassigned, though it might take a little experimentation since they designate them by their equivalents on the Saturn pad, not their in-game function.

Yeah, big non-fan of this...

[Sima Tuna]

11 frames of lag in-game? Am I hearing that right? Bruh...

Thanks for doing that testing. Seems the least they could do would be to patch the lag down to 7 or so frames.

[BrianC]

Funny thing is that the setting actually has "Valid/Invalid" instead of "Off/On"

Just a bad translation quirk, no special meaning.

That's exactly why I found it funny. Crazy thing is I'm actually considering purchasing the Saturn version of Cotton Boomerang, despite how expensive it is, though I'll wait for a pay day or two first. I'm still on the fence with Guardian Force. I wonder if the screen size option also affect latency. Doesn't seem to make as much difference as the AA. One thing I noticed is that the original Saturn version of Cotton 2 looks amazing with the HD Retrovision Genesis 2 cables + saturn adapter.

[harborline765]

Crowdfunded Latency testing coming in:

Switch results currently available

https://mobile.twitter.com/kimagreGamin ... 8337731584

Is it ten frames of lag, and slightly more for Guardian Force

[Siontis]

Unplayable, I only hope Cave is involved somehow and Deathsmiles won't have the same fate.

[harborline765]

PS4 results now in as well:

https://mobile.twitter.com/kimagreGamin ... 7711891456

So it seems the two Cotton games will turn in between 9 and 10 frames of lag, with 10 being more common than 9 on Switch and 9 being more common than 10 on PS4

Guardian Force turns in between 11 and 12 frames(!) on Switch, and a slightly improved 10 and 11 frames(!) on PS4.

Yeah, this is pretty bad, and explained why it took me a long time to adjust to standard gameplay when I had a long session on it a couple of nights ago. Not including precision movement which is now far too unreliable when you need to do it, or tea time segments.

[GFoyle]

Wow, that's just really horrible input lag. I ordered the PS4 version long time ago already, but I don't feel like even trying it out when I get it. There is plenty of other great shmups to play, without any such issues, I don't really have motivation to even try to adjust to such input lag (been there and done that before with some games)

I fear doubt they will be able or even try to improve it. It never happened with Psikyo ports on Switch (though when they released those os Steam, they tuned it a bit, but never tried to go back and also improve the Switch versions).

Might be different if the Japanese audience gives a huge outcry or something, but I have my doubts. They probably would need to work on all layers to improve it enough, original code, emulator and that unity layer on top...

[Ghegs]

Damn shame. I have the Switch physical on pre-order, and I was getting it mostly for Guardian Force. I have the original ST-V cart, and I was hoping I'd have a good way to play the game on a modern system without having to rely on the aging arcade hardware...it's been a while since I've played it, hopefully my ST-V mobo still works.

[Bassa-Bassa]

So the reason that Cruisin Mix wasn’t badly-regarded is that the added lag was bearable thanks to the original game beeing well coded. Still, lacking a scanlines option these days is already questionable.

[BIL]

In my best Bernard Manning accent: a fucking disgrace. Already got the whole STV STG set on Saturn, but good ports for younger hardware are always welcome. I won't be touching these unless they're sorted out massively.

I almost wonder if these lag-ridden releases are really just nostalgia jagoff material... as long as the game's audible and visible, who cares as long as the screen eventually responds, mirite? Besides, you've got infinite continues! I saw one asshole claim SNK40th's joystick inputs randomly locking up was NBD because "u can just rewind and do over lmao." Oh yeah, just like the PCBs then, haha sorted m8, cor I love "retro gaming!" Fucking Christ. Maybe we're just not the market.

[trap15]

Besides, you've got infinite continues!

At least on Guardian Force it appears to be 10 continues max.

[BIL]

Oof, fucking hell Get owned noobs! ;[

[Sengoku Strider]

Damn...I was really close to pre-ordering this too. Boomerang & GF have been on my Saturn wishlist for a while but Boomerang had been inching towards $400. I can't bring myself to dive into something laggier than Vasara Collection.

- Controller buttons can be freely reassigned, though it might take a little experimentation since they designate them by their equivalents on the Saturn pad, not their in-game function.

Tru ballerz™ already roll with a Saturn pad anyway.

Unless they use an arcade stick.

[BulletMagnet]

Maybe we're just not the market.

Especially for titles as under-the-radar as these, I struggle to think who would be the market if not the handful of folks who have been playing this weird stuff long enough to remember them in the first place (not to mention afford them before prices went nuts).

Is there any "official" means of contact that English speakers might most effectively use to get in touch with City Connection and request they address the lag issues?

[lovecraft]

The good side of this compilation is that in the end it makes me want to find and buy Cotton 2 on Saturn since I already have Boomerang and GF

[Astro City II]

Maybe we're just not the market.

Is there any "official" means of contact that English speakers might most effectively use to get in touch with City Connection and request they address the lag issues?

info@city-connection.co.jp