PixelFX Morph

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TooBeaucoup
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by TooBeaucoup »

fernan1234 wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2023 7:11 am Looks like this scaler project is really dead. There's basically no need for it now that the 4K is on the horizon.

PixelFX is pivoting to internal ADC kits. It looks like their planned licensing/paywall model is not sitting well with a lot of people. It may even invite "jailbreak" attempts.

Personally I don't see the value proposition for any of the two options though. The basic kit just for direct output? The 5X and the 4K will clean up your analogue output just as well as long as you have good cables. And likewise you might as well just let the external scaler do all the processing, with a simple plug-and-play solution rather than a very involved/expensive console modification. Even the 5X already does everything the shiny licensed kit does and more, and it's $300 vs $200 (which doesn't include install costs).
This for sure. Both the 5x and 4k will deal with absolutely every console scenario imaginable. As cool as I think HDMI mods are, the only console that really, absolutely needs it is probably the OG XBox as the component output is just a touch soft, although not what I'd consider bad. The PS2 has pretty great component/RGB output, so I'm not sure why so many people were clamoring for an HDMI solution. I suppose I understand, as most games are 480i and an internal HDMI solution would bring better deinterlacing with it, but current scalers already do it quite well, as will future scalers.

Voultar has been saying for the longest time that, in his opinion, the best solution is having your consoles output a high quality RGB/Component signal and letting a high-quality external scaler do the heavy lifting, although he's also praised all the HDMI mods as excellent kits, and I tend to agree.

This whole Pixel thing is so disappointing. So many people were hyped for the Morph, and no word on that, but then we get this goofy announcement. So weird and dumb.
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bobrocks95
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by bobrocks95 »

fernan1234 wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2023 7:11 amPixelFX is pivoting to internal ADC kits.
No clue why you think they're ADC's. Like the existing DCDigital or N64Digital they're fully digital solutions that tap video signals straight off of video chips. Those constantly sell out immediately and consolidating to one SKU they can actually keep in stock will be huge for them, though the fixed hardware makes me think they're taking a slight loss on base editions and hoping most users will opt for the upgrade.

Whether or not you think an HDMI mod is worth it is up to you, but these are literally the only thing PixelFX has sold thus far so how is it a pivot??
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VEGETA
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by VEGETA »

Whether or not you think an HDMI mod is worth it is up to you
in my opinion, HDMI internal kits are not worth it. you pay about 150$ on average which is very expensive (I know they cost a lot to produce) and they don't really deliver that "game changing" value people claim they do.

All you need is a good RGB cable (and mod to your console) then deliver all your consoles RGB\Component high quality signal to a good external scaler say RT5X which will give you practically and reasonably the exact same end result! why would you pay a lot per console instead of just one time good scaler which takes all?? for what result?? when you sit and play, internal "fully digital" won't give you any real noticeable result over RGB + good scaler. this is a fact not an opinion. >> with that said I don't mind people buying any HDMI kit and I think they are good cleaver designs.
one SKU they can actually keep in stock
this is certainly good move, one product to do multi... but for the end-user it means nothing. I keep reading "only one product for 4-5 consoles" which is useless to end-user! the end-user if he needs to HDMI mod his consoles he MUST buy a kit for each console, so what benefit will this "one SKU for all" benefit him here vs buying a different kit for each console? nothing.

if you want to HDMI your setup, then getting RGB\Comp cables and a good scaler is the best option (as we said above, no real practical added value of pure digital) and cheapest. it will cost you say 300$ for 5X and 100$ or so for cables = 400-500$ total. while going internal mods will easily cost you +1000$ for mere 5 consoles!


all these awesome scaling and scanlines features are already exist in external scaler... it is not really beneficial to have them per console.

This for sure. Both the 5x and 4k will deal with absolutely every console scenario imaginable. As cool as I think HDMI mods are, the only console that really, absolutely needs it is probably the OG XBox as the component output is just a touch soft, although not what I'd consider bad. The PS2 has pretty great component/RGB output, so I'm not sure why so many people were clamoring for an HDMI solution. I suppose I understand, as most games are 480i and an internal HDMI solution would bring better deinterlacing with it, but current scalers already do it quite well, as will future scalers.
yes correct. mostly what I personally think.

I don't have xbox so can't judge but I think you can just use RGB SCART with it instead of component. 480i processing has gotten to a really nice status where complaining about them is not really acceptable. I mean, what is more than motion-adaptive deinterlacing which is minimal lag?

Since I posted that in February the 5CEFA5F23C8N is available to purchase in small quantities now, which is a massive improvement over "64 week lead times". I think end of this year, start of the next we're going to see movement. Mike posts about the RT4K enough that I think it's coming within half a year.
140$ is too much which will drive the total price up. I believe the 4K will use a lot stronger FPGA which is not within the reasonable pricing range. FPGAs are not specialized chips thus need more power to deliver good results. they are not ASICs after all.


From what I hear, people have enjoyed the HDR flagging feature when combined with scanlines to brighten the image back up, it all depends on how your display can tone map. I would not personally have any interest in any algorithms to do a full artificial conversion from SDR to HDR, but maybe some more ability to tweak the colors when flagging the output as HDR would be nice.
the brightness thing is nice but not as big as putting "HDR" into the set of features. converting SDR to HDR is not a gimmicky thing but can deliver actual good results which makes the image way better especially for 3D games which has detailed backgrounds and so on. but ultimately it is up to the user himself.
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bobrocks95
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by bobrocks95 »

The benefit to the end user of having one SKU is simply that you can actually buy the product. PS1Digital has always sold out pretty much immediately as soon as it was available. Pricing is the same, or for the basic version, quite a bit lower. So really nothing to complain about other than "I thought this would be a Morph announcement" which I get the disappointment but I'm surprised to see the negativity here.

Analog has its own hidden costs. I certainly can't get 5 high quality RGB cables for $100, my Retro Access cables were about $40 each. Good quality automatic SCART switchers are quite expensive and take up a huge footprint. HDMI cables and auto switchers are all dirt cheap.

Some consoles still have some issues with analog output. Wii has the 480p bug that GCVideo bypasses completely. Xbox softness was mentioned. My Genesis 2 still has jailbar issues even after a triple bypass install. SNES has 3-chip smearing and the white bar. Dreamcast VGA is too hot and clips bright colors. PC Engine needs stronger decoupling caps and the RGB palette is off. Several other systems have pretty expensive RGB mods already. If everything has a ~$120 or less HDMI mod available in the future I think a lot of them will be easy choices.

Some people are just running a MiSTer for anything classic at this point and only have a system or two it doesn't cover- perfect candidates for the upgraded Gem no external scaler needed.

And for Xbox, motion adaptive deinterlacing is nice but still far from a replacement for a true 480p signal. The sharpness loss is noticeable even without a lot of motion on screen. Mike Chi recommends generic sampling settings for 480i output because it's so soft anyways.
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by fernan1234 »

bobrocks95 wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2023 2:08 pm Whether or not you think an HDMI mod is worth it is up to you, but these are literally the only thing PixelFX has sold thus far so how is it a pivot??
Yeah you're absolutely right on both points. I was thinking of the "pivot" in terms of their previous announcements for the Morph as well as the Infinity switch, both of which may be dead projects at this point. And I was thinking of these kits as ADC-like solutions, but again you're right that this is actually a digital-to-digital conversion.

And you also bring up a good point about the cost of a high quality analogue cable that can match the output quality of a digital mod. The only ones that I know of that can meet this standard both on the video and audio front are the $40 RA cables that you mentioned. In fact, now I'm thinking that the main advantage of these mods is not on the video side but rather when it comes to audio. It's much more difficult to get very clean audio with analogue cables.
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Konsolkongen
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by Konsolkongen »

It’s a damn shame about the Infinity switch. It looked like it could be a great pick for wallmounting, and the customization options was neat too.

Price wise it would probably have been too expensive considering how cheap you can get used Extrons on ebay.
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orange808
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by orange808 »

With the mod installed, I assume the digital output will always drop and go through a handshake process when the signal changes. So, if you decide you want to use the console with a video scaler later on, that will always be there. Analog output won't do that. Every handshake in the chain adds time to drops. Some scalers can avoid dropping sync with the display entirely with an analog source.

This one's not for me. YMMV.
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VEGETA
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by VEGETA »

I respect people's decision to buy what suits them.

to me analog RGB\Comp is the way to go with either a CRT or a good scaler. 5X is 325$ and GBS-C is mere 80$ and delivers very good result, complains.

analog RBG cables are not that much costly, 30-40$ per console and you are good to go. Some consoles need internal mods but most of them can output RGB directly. HDMI needs to be done to each console and each console will cost about 200$!

I have about 8 consoles, only Twin Famicom needed internal RGB mod (which still cheaper than HDMI kit). I play on Sony CRT 29" so not direct comparison to HDMI setups.
The benefit to the end user of having one SKU is simply that you can actually buy the product.
still not a good argument since most stuff will be available sooner or later. the end result for you is the same, buying very expensive kit for each console. this wasn't really my main point though, my main point was about the best setup being analog as mentioned.



on a side note, PixelFX and colleagues always tease people with many news and stuff then for years do not deliver... adding to that they release a completely different product which has the absolute worst pricing and business model ever (digitally crippled hardware which gets activated by digital purchase)... look into Rigol oscilloscpe digital hack to make it 100 MHz instead of 50 Mhz, same issue.
when companies do that people won't like it... not that the company really owe us anything but still teasing and promising then this...? this product obviously took lots of time and resources which should have been put on the promised flagship awaited product.
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by bobrocks95 »

orange808 wrote: Sun Jul 23, 2023 6:39 pm With the mod installed, I assume the digital output will always drop and go through a handshake process when the signal changes. So, if you decide you want to use the console with a video scaler later on, that will always be there. Analog output won't do that. Every handshake in the chain adds time to drops. Some scalers can avoid dropping sync with the display entirely with an analog source.

This one's not for me. YMMV.
I think that's more a wait and see thing for scalers that actually have HDMI inputs. HDMI handshakes are to read EDID info and then change resolutions right? Don't really see why it would be necessary for raw output on the console, it's not going to be changing its resolution based on any info the sink gives it. I feel like Mike could pull off some tricks with it, and I don't know that people have complained about signal drops on existing HDMI mods, have they?
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by fernan1234 »

bobrocks95 wrote: Sun Jul 23, 2023 9:54 pm I think that's more a wait and see thing for scalers that actually have HDMI inputs. HDMI handshakes are to read EDID info and then change resolutions right? Don't really see why it would be necessary for raw output on the console, it's not going to be changing its resolution based on any info the sink gives it. I feel like Mike could pull off some tricks with it, and I don't know that people have complained about signal drops on existing HDMI mods, have they?
I hadn't thought about this point but orange808 is probably right about this concern. If the HDMI mod is outputting scaled video then it probably won't cause issues and is why we haven't heard many complaints about it. But now we have this direct video mode which some people are hoping can be scaled more optimally by future scalers with HDMI inputs. The direct output will have to vary for those consoles that change resolution mid game or even worse change scan rate from progressive to interlaced pictures. Mike would indeed have to come up with a whole new solution that he already pulled off for analogue inputs.
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Guspaz
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by Guspaz »

Mike said that changes to HDMI resolution are handled about as fast as changes to analog resolution, and that the same solutions (such as triple buffering) to avoid dropouts on resolution change will apply.

Remember that HDMI is just adapted DVI, and DVI is just a digitized version of VGA. It's why there's so much wasted bandwidth in modern digital video for blanking intervals despite them not making any sense in digital video.
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orange808
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by orange808 »

I would probably use a switch in front of the scaler. Most of us would.
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bobrocks95
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by bobrocks95 »

I could see it going either way for a switch causing problems. Sources we'd be using for it again shouldn't be caring about EDID information, but maybe that's not all that's involved in a handshake. I guess I'll go ahead and ask Mike on twitter (ahem) since he's pretty active over there.

EDIT: From the man himself: https://twitter.com/retrotink2/status/1 ... 5515546625

And since I believe the website formerly known as twitter doesn't let you see anything if you aren't logged in:
Spoiler
Image
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orange808
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by orange808 »

I'd love to hear about the golden chain setups in use that do not exhibit handshake drops and delays--without VRR. Hopefully, someone can post some videos and the specific units. I'd like one of those switches.
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by spmbx »

PixelFX is pivoting to internal ADC kits. It looks like their planned licensing/paywall model is not sitting well with a lot of people. It may even invite "jailbreak" attempts.
No clue what thats about, was it something discussed on twitter? Since i deleted that..
Voultar has been saying for the longest time that, in his opinion, the best solution is having your consoles output a high quality RGB/Component signal and letting a high-quality external scaler do the heavy lifting, although he's also praised all the HDMI mods as excellent kits, and I tend to agree.
The guys a complete douchebag so i will consider anything that goes against voultars doctrine as a positive development. Lets wait and see if the morph is actually released first though and judge it on its workings and features first.
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TooBeaucoup
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by TooBeaucoup »

spmbx wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2023 2:23 am
Voultar has been saying for the longest time that, in his opinion, the best solution is having your consoles output a high quality RGB/Component signal and letting a high-quality external scaler do the heavy lifting, although he's also praised all the HDMI mods as excellent kits, and I tend to agree.
The guys a complete douchebag so i will consider anything that goes against voultars doctrine as a positive development. Lets wait and see if the morph is actually released first though and judge it on its workings and features first.
Speaking of the Retro GEM in particular -

I mean, you can certainly dislike Voultar, but he's not wrong. If you have multiple consoles, it makes far more sense to simply invest in good RGB Scart cables at $30-$40 per console and running into a good scaler versus spending $100+ on internal HDMI mods + the cost of install if you can't do it yourself. If you own 5 consoles that's $100x5. plus probably another $300-$500 for installs if you can't do it yourself.

You can barely tell the difference between a quality RGB setup versus HDMI mods, unless you're pixel-peeping still screenshots zoomed in 500x. That said, this Pixel FX project is still cool. No hate to anyone who is interested.

Now, speaking on the Morph in particular, that would likely still be very cool and useful if they still decide to release it. It's unfortunate that we have no word on it, and haven't for a while.
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bobrocks95
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by bobrocks95 »

I've seen people here who have dropped $600 on two gscartsw's for their analog setup so I don't know why new $120 HDMI mods are being balked at (people liked the $200 ones a lot!)
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by SavagePencil »

So wait, did they say they’re stopping work on the infinity switch or was it just implied?
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by ldeveraux »

TooBeaucoup wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2023 2:45 am I mean, you can certainly dislike Voultar, but he's not wrong. If you have multiple consoles, it makes far more sense to simply invest in good RGB Scart cables at $30-$40 per console and running into a good scaler versus spending $100+ on internal HDMI mods + the cost of install if you can't do it yourself. If you own 5 consoles that's $100x5. plus probably another $300-$500 for installs if you can't do it yourself.
Unless your console also requires an RGB mod, then add that cost into the mix as well.
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by jd213 »

Yeah, at this point I'd rather have an HDMI mod for the NES/FC than an RGB mod.
Also hoping for a lower-cost HDMI adapter for the PC Engine/TurboGrafx, since that wouldn't need any installing.
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by TooBeaucoup »

bobrocks95 wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2023 3:18 am I've seen people here who have dropped $600 on two gscartsw's for their analog setup so I don't know why new $120 HDMI mods are being balked at (people liked the $200 ones a lot!)
Agreed. I'm not saying RGB is always cheaper, but I have a feeling that a large majority of people are just getting a cheap/decent switcher to go with their consoles and likely not gscarts or Hydras.
ldeveraux wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2023 2:53 pm
TooBeaucoup wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2023 2:45 am I mean, you can certainly dislike Voultar, but he's not wrong. If you have multiple consoles, it makes far more sense to simply invest in good RGB Scart cables at $30-$40 per console and running into a good scaler versus spending $100+ on internal HDMI mods + the cost of install if you can't do it yourself. If you own 5 consoles that's $100x5. plus probably another $300-$500 for installs if you can't do it yourself.
Unless your console also requires an RGB mod, then add that cost into the mix as well.
Agreed. My example wasn't perfect.
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by bobrocks95 »

Every reply I see from Mike makes it sound like the RT4K will be in the sort of pricing bracket where the 5X is certainly good enough for most. RGB is good enough for most too I'm sure, but if you're dropping ~$800 on a scaler to get an ever so slight resolution increase might as well mod your consoles for pure digital too right?

I guess I'm just still wondering what people wanted here- the Morph and Infinity Switch are both going to be very expensive I'd imagine since they confirmed the Morph will be aiming for 4K as well (wouldn't want to fall behind). The 5X will maintain its market segment very nicely I think. You are either willing to drop a ton for 4K and HDMI mods or you're doing just fine with what you have I'd imagine?
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by fernan1234 »

Mike has also commented that your current analogue cables will do just as well on the 4K. That's what he's been working on the most anyway (the ADC) since he knows that's what most people will be using. These digital mods are nested in at least three layers of niche.

Thinking back on it, it's funny that I got two digital mods for non-scaling reasons. I got the DCHDMI just for a convenient way to get the cleanest audio possible from a Dreamcast, and a WiiDual just for a convenient way to get RGB from a Wii, while still using 480i on a CRT with both. That's probably an even deeper niche :lol:
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by parodius »

My sales thread : 2020/07/20..MASTER.VER.
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Josh128
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by Josh128 »

Apparently this project isnt dead?? Ladies and gentlemen we appear to have some competition!

If you already have an OSSC or RT5X, you can apparently snag one of these in the digital in only version for $375 and get some 4K goodness. This is quite a brilliant move that could steal some potential RT4K customers due to pricing concerns.

I see no specs on this yet though, wonder what its capabilities are?
Last edited by Josh128 on Fri Aug 04, 2023 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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bobrocks95
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by bobrocks95 »

Welp, dang, I thought I had all my plans sorted out. Now I'm going to be scouring for every scrap of info I can find tonight.
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by Josh128 »

Pixel Enlargement Lab, Cologne, Germany 8/4/2023 - The Pixel FX team has been busy, and we are happy to announce the premier 4k scaler for your setup, the Morph 4K. See your games like never before with the Morph 4K as it upscales them to beautiful 4k quality and the latest HDMI tricks like HDR, BFI, and VRR. No matter if you are looking to upscale your favorite HDMI consoles or looking to get the best picture from your favorite retro console, the Morph 4K will achieve stunning results. The Morph 4K is nearly ready to go, launching in Q4 2023.

Feature Rundown -

Up to 4K60 resolution polyphase upscaling

4:4:4 end to end color support

HDR, Variable Refresh Rate, Black Frame Insertion
Ultra low lag

Motion adaptive deinterlacing

Scanlines

WiFi updates and WebUI system control

MicroSD card slot for updates and user files

Expansion card support
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by bobrocks95 »

I will say unless the copy for the website was already written, this comes across as pretty tacky to take it straight from Bob's preview of the Tink 4K
Some might even call the Morph 4K + Analog the "BVM of scalers".
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by orange808 »

bobrocks95 wrote: Fri Aug 04, 2023 12:41 am I will say unless the copy for the website was already written, this comes across as pretty tacky to take it straight from Bob's preview of the Tink 4K
Some might even call the Morph 4K + Analog the "BVM of scalers".
Sure, but I believe the Tink4k will ship.

Sorry about the honesty. I'm not the only one thinking it.
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bobrocks95
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by bobrocks95 »

Poking through the PixelFX discord, I'm not seeing much that the Tink4K explicitly promises that the Morph isn't promising as well. Both Woozle and Mike told me they hope to get rotation working in the future but can't promise it. Both say they will potentially integrate with Extron switchers in the future (auto-selecting sampling/video options based on the input used would be huge for me). Both have color-corrected HDR, BFI, and advanced scanline options. Both are of course 4:4:4 with 4K 60Hz output.

I think the Tink 4K has an advantage on inputs for certain setups by featuring all of them at the same time by default, though the Morph's VGA card has a double input and you can put adapter dongles on them, which is enough for me. I asked but 120Hz output modes have not been mentioned for the Morph, though personally I doubt I'd use them much on the Tink 4K. The Morph may have better integration with the company's own HDMI boards, since there's mention of the Game ID functionality the PS1Digital uses to have true per-game settings auto-selected (set up your entire PS1 library to optimal sampling and never have to touch your input settings again!).

Mike has a great history of updates, but so does PixelFX, including backporting their new software to the older N64 digital boards. Dan personally replaced an old GCVideo install he did on my Gamecube when it first came out with a fully featured GCDual board completely for free after I reached out to him saying I was having some issues with dancing green pixels and figured it was the ribbon cable. PixelFX has the benefit of being a multi-person team as well (as Mike puts it, a "real company"), so updates could potentially come more quickly (Mike is of course a beast though).

I suppose I'll have to wait until both launch. I've been very excited about the Tink 4K but if the Morph undercuts it by actually $300+ and offers such a similar feature set, it's going to be very hard to beat.
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