RetroTINK 5x-Pro

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Kez
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Kez »

Even low FPS games will still lose out somewhat at 4k24 if they are 60hz signals. It would need to be an extremely stable 24fps game to perform well I think (or games where it wouldn't be a big deal to lose frames as Guspaz suggested).

As an quick example, imagine a low FPS game with an unstable framerate at 60hz, and a 20fps output (easier to divide up!). So the input doesn't necessarily have perfect frame pacing, which means it won't always update frames at the same time as the output. Below I have imagined a scenario where an unstable game updates 4 times in 12 frames (so average 20fps at 60hz) and the "scaler" is running at 20fps. You can see that, as the updates are out of sync, there is additional and variable delay between new frames appearing, and frame 3 is skipped altogether.

Code: Select all

input  -1---2----3-4
output o--o--o--o--o
result ---1--2-----4
Still, this is an incredible achievement nonetheless! It will be super interesting as a comparison point between old games being scaled up to 1080p vs 4k, something people have been asking about for a long time.
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Josh128
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Josh128 »

Yeah, I saw this feature pop up in the Discord feed and I must say I was a bit confused. I guess a 4k30 was too much for the hardware, that would have been much better as many N64 games run a fairly consistent locked 30 fps. Then there are those that appear to run at a locked 20fps (Zelda, Waverace). For Goldeneye and PD, probably wont noticed many dropped frames though.

Just curious as someone who doesnt have a 4K display, was 240p scaled to 1440p with the RT5X and letting the the TV or monitors internal scaler handle the rest looking bad or something? Was this just a technical demo/challenge for Mike to get working or was there actually some demand for it?
thebigcheese
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by thebigcheese »

Kez wrote:Even low FPS games will still lose out somewhat at 4k24 if they are 60hz signals. It would need to be an extremely stable 24fps game to perform well I think (or games where it wouldn't be a big deal to lose frames as Guspaz suggested).

As an quick example, imagine a low FPS game with an unstable framerate at 60hz, and a 20fps output (easier to divide up!). So the input doesn't necessarily have perfect frame pacing, which means it won't always update frames at the same time as the output. Below I have imagined a scenario where an unstable game updates 4 times in 12 frames (so average 20fps at 60hz) and the "scaler" is running at 20fps. You can see that, as the updates are out of sync, there is additional and variable delay between new frames appearing, and frame 3 is skipped altogether.

Code: Select all

input  -1---2----3-4
output o--o--o--o--o
result ---1--2-----4
Still, this is an incredible achievement nonetheless! It will be super interesting as a comparison point between old games being scaled up to 1080p vs 4k, something people have been asking about for a long time.
Depends on the display. Movies have been 24p since forever, so most modern TVs have circuitry to compensate for that. Now, depending on how they do it, you might get some jitter out of it, but in theory they could just display something like 1, 1+2, 2, 2+3, 3, etc. Every other frame is a blended frame. In practice, I think the traditional way has been more like 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, etc, which is not ideal (you can look up 3:2 pulldown for more on that). However, if you're sending it to a 120 Hz display, then they can run every frame 5 times and you get no jitter and perfect pacing (I believe this is how LG OLEDs handle it).
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Kez
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Kez »

thebigcheese wrote:Depends on the display. Movies have been 24p since forever, so most modern TVs have circuitry to compensate for that. Now, depending on how they do it, you might get some jitter out of it, but in theory they could just display something like 1, 1+2, 2, 2+3, 3, etc. Every other frame is a blended frame. In practice, I think the traditional way has been more like 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, etc, which is not ideal (you can look up 3:2 pulldown for more on that). However, if you're sending it to a 120 Hz display, then they can run every frame 5 times and you get no jitter and perfect pacing (I believe this is how LG OLEDs handle it).
True, although that is how the TV handles the 24hz signal rather than how the Tink handles the 60->24 conversion. I wonder if it is doing anything like that?
24hz is a conspicuous number, I know some people have been using the Tink to digitize old analogue video footage, which as mentioned is often at 24fps.. so it would be a perfect fit for that and possibly why it was created?
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Guspaz
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Guspaz »

Full 4K30 is out of reach since it's a large (25%) increase in required pixel clock over 4K24. But Mike did mention that 4:3 4K30 (that is, 2880x2160) was doable on the RT5X side (it's less pixels than 2560x1440@60 or 4K24), though compatibility on the TV side is unknown and might be poor.
Mr.Ash
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Mr.Ash »

Josh128 wrote:Just curious as someone who doesnt have a 4K display, was 240p scaled to 1440p with the RT5X and letting the the TV or monitors internal scaler handle the rest looking bad or something? Was this just a technical demo/challenge for Mike to get working or was there actually some demand for it?
I have a relatively new 4K OLED HDTV (Sony KE-48 A9). Its internal scaling engine seems to work very well, at least I can't really see any difference between 1080p fill, 1200p and 1440p image output of the Retro TINK 5x. Only at lower output resolutions like 720p or lower are scaling artifacts noticeable at the (especially angled) edges.

Therefore, I hardly think that it is a real gain when the Retro TINK 5x can output a native 4K resolution. If only 24 or 30 fps are possible, it makes even less sense to pursue this further.

However, it may well be that there are 4K HDTVs that have qualitatively simpler scaling engines and that the picture quality will benefit from native 4K. But with only 24-30 fps, this is a rather poor compromise.
strayan
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by strayan »

Mr.Ash wrote:
strayan wrote:Does your HDCRT not accept 540p?
Yes, 540p works, but there are clear scaling artifacts, i.e. the picture looks soft and muddy in details (e.g. texts).
That seems odd since my understanding is that the 540p output contains a line doubled 480p imagine within it. I guess your TV might be applying some kind of processing to 540p signals though.
Mr.Ash
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Mr.Ash »

strayan wrote:That seems odd since my understanding is that the 540p output contains a line doubled 480p imagine within it. I guess your TV might be applying some kind of processing to 540p signals though.
I think it's more because 540p isn't really a standard. My CRT normally displays the resolution of the input signal accordingly (e.g. 480/60p), but with 540p only "other" is displayed. Accordingly, I cannot make any settings in the signal or deflection block via the service menu, because there are only settings for standard signals, but not for "other".

Anyway, I sent Mike Chi a PM to make him aware of the problem with 480p/576p. Who knows, maybe there will be an option in future firmware updates to output this signal as 1440x480 or the standard 720x480.
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Strider77
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Strider77 »

I have a relatively new 4K OLED HDTV (Sony KE-48 A9).
What settings are you using on your TV for BFI (Motion/Clearness) and Peak Brightness?
Last edited by Strider77 on Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Damn Tim, you know there are quite a few Americans out there who still lives in tents due to this shitty economy, and you're dropping loads on a single game which only last 20 min. Do you think it's fair? How much did you spend this time?
thebigcheese
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by thebigcheese »

Kez wrote:True, although that is how the TV handles the 24hz signal rather than how the Tink handles the 60->24 conversion. I wonder if it is doing anything like that?
24hz is a conspicuous number, I know some people have been using the Tink to digitize old analogue video footage, which as mentioned is often at 24fps.. so it would be a perfect fit for that and possibly why it was created?
I was also thinking that would be a perfect use case, but that requires the original device (DVD player, probably) to output at 24 FPS and IIRC, they usually don't because the TV wouldn't have known what to do with it.
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Guspaz
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Guspaz »

There's now a 4K30 experimental firmware, but it's pushing the FPGA way past where it's meant to be and using very reduced timings, so compatibility is sketchy. But it does now allow a 1:2 framelock with the original signal.
Mr.Ash
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Mr.Ash »

Strider77 wrote:What settings are you using on your TV for BFI (Motion/Clearness) and Peak Brightness?
For the Retro TINK 5x I use the same HDMI connection on the HDTV as my DVDO VP50 (HDMI 1). With this I have the picture settings as follows:

Picture Mode -> Game
Autom. picture mode -> off
Light sensor -> off
Brightness and contrast -> max
Gamma -> 0
Black level -> 45
Black balance -> off
Enhanced contrast amplifier -> off
Peak luminance -> high
Color -> 50
Hue -> 0
Color temperature -> neutral
Color brilliance -> low
Image sharpness -> 50
Reality Creation -> min
Uniform gradation -> off
Motion flow -> off
HDR mode -> auto
HDMI video range -> auto
Color space -> auto

With these settings the HDTV delivers an absolutely excelent picture for gaming, the input lag is just 18.6ms (a bit more than 1 frame at 60Hz), I personally measured this value with my Time Sleuth.
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Jose1980
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Jose1980 »

For anyone that is also using the retrotink for 240p downscaling on a pvm through a nintendo switch it works beautifully!! Looks way better then previous firmware colors look much richer if that makes sense. The new crop features are awesome too! Can adjust screen perfectly to the fill screen I love it!!! Super excited!
The only thing is... make sure your switch outputs 480p as 720p didn't work for me this time.

Tried ps4 also, but I still can't get anything out of it. Tried 720p and 480 and all I get is a garble mess.
CobraKing
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by CobraKing »

Mr.Ash wrote:
Josh128 wrote:Just curious as someone who doesnt have a 4K display, was 240p scaled to 1440p with the RT5X and letting the the TV or monitors internal scaler handle the rest looking bad or something? Was this just a technical demo/challenge for Mike to get working or was there actually some demand for it?
I have a relatively new 4K OLED HDTV (Sony KE-48 A9). Its internal scaling engine seems to work very well, at least I can't really see any difference between 1080p fill, 1200p and 1440p image output of the Retro TINK 5x. Only at lower output resolutions like 720p or lower are scaling artifacts noticeable at the (especially angled) edges.

Therefore, I hardly think that it is a real gain when the Retro TINK 5x can output a native 4K resolution. If only 24 or 30 fps are possible, it makes even less sense to pursue this further.

However, it may well be that there are 4K HDTVs that have qualitatively simpler scaling engines and that the picture quality will benefit from native 4K. But with only 24-30 fps, this is a rather poor compromise.
My brother has this TV and it has excellent internal upscaling to 4K (720P+ onwards) - we were playing the Genesis/MD mini which has 720P output and it looked fantastic. That said, I think SONY TVs tend to have better internal upscaling vs. some of the other brands so it's nice that the RetroTink is offering this (to an extent). If Mike decides to release a newer version of the RetroTink with 'native' 4K support then there could be valuable lessons learned from this exercise.
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Guspaz
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Guspaz »

The main benefit of the 4K output mode with RT5X is the mask overlays, which are applied at the output resolution. So the mask overlay applying scanlines and CRT effects and all that happens at 4K resolution.

If it's just upscaling 240p or whatever with no effects, whatever, not going to notice the difference between 1080/1440/4K, especially if you've bumped the TV's sharpness up a bit.
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Tempest_2084
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Tempest_2084 »

Is there any advantage of using my Wii with the 5X Pro vs just plugging it straight into my TV? I'd think that the Wii is new enough that it should just work normally without the need for an upscaler (my TV tops out at 1080p so it's not a high end one).
spmbx
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by spmbx »

Wii does 480p max
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Josh128
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Josh128 »

You can achieve results like below if you are OK with trading vertical scanlines for horizontal ones (vertical scales evenly on 1080p, horizontal doesnt). Looks much better than letting the TV upscale, IMO.

https://i.imgur.com/BzlRgJ8.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/vMXBOkX.jpg
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bobrocks95
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by bobrocks95 »

Tempest_2084 wrote:Is there any advantage of using my Wii with the 5X Pro vs just plugging it straight into my TV? I'd think that the Wii is new enough that it should just work normally without the need for an upscaler (my TV tops out at 1080p so it's not a high end one).
Easy to compare yourself, but- for me, 960p out of the OSSC definitely looks a lot sharper for 480p content than sending it straight to my TV.
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Tempest_2084
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Tempest_2084 »

I suppose I can hook it up and see if I notice a difference. My component switch box only has four inputs though so I'd have to swap another system though. So it would be between hooking up my PSP, Xbox, or Wii to the 5X (the PS2 and GC have to stay).
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maxtherabbit
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by maxtherabbit »

bobrocks95 wrote:
Tempest_2084 wrote:Is there any advantage of using my Wii with the 5X Pro vs just plugging it straight into my TV? I'd think that the Wii is new enough that it should just work normally without the need for an upscaler (my TV tops out at 1080p so it's not a high end one).
Easy to compare yourself, but- for me, 960p out of the OSSC definitely looks a lot sharper for 480p content than sending it straight to my TV.
Same here, my TV does an extremely soft scale of anything <1808p
dojima
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by dojima »

Tempest_2084 wrote:Is there any advantage of using my Wii with the 5X Pro vs just plugging it straight into my TV? I'd think that the Wii is new enough that it should just work normally without the need for an upscaler (my TV tops out at 1080p so it's not a high end one).
I know that for my TV, although it has component inputs, anything sent over HDMI instead is significantly sharper.
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by headlesshobbs »

We have a very high number of re-released classics on newer generation consoles, including the ACA line of titles. At this point I really do think Mike needs to consider a revision that has hdmi support for 1080p, otherwise it would just be plain ignorance to leave the rest of us without.

I've been having to resort to using my ossc as a tvl buffer so the sprites don't have that jagged HD appearance you typically deal with at high resolutions. If Tink could do that and run a dithering filter, that would take care of all my concerns moving forward.

I do have a question though, how well does the Tink currently handle PC usage with games running a different number of resolutions, like 640x400 DOS to 800x600 Diablo? Has anyone posted results from those?
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bobrocks95
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by bobrocks95 »

headlesshobbs wrote:We have a very high number of re-released classics on newer generation consoles, including the ACA line of titles. At this point I really do think Mike needs to consider a revision that has hdmi support for 1080p, otherwise it would just be plain ignorance to leave the rest of us without.

I've been having to resort to using my ossc as a tvl buffer so the sprites don't have that jagged HD appearance you typically deal with at high resolutions. If Tink could do that and run a dithering filter, that would take care of all my concerns moving forward.

I do have a question though, how well does the Tink currently handle PC usage with games running a different number of resolutions, like 640x400 DOS to 800x600 Diablo? Has anyone posted results from those?
You mean downscaling from 1080p or what? How's the OSSC helping if that's what you mean?
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mikechi2
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by mikechi2 »

It would be more productive to take these demands to the developers of the remakes. Probably would also benefit far more people.
headlesshobbs
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by headlesshobbs »

bobrocks95 wrote:
headlesshobbs wrote:We have a very high number of re-released classics on newer generation consoles, including the ACA line of titles. At this point I really do think Mike needs to consider a revision that has hdmi support for 1080p, otherwise it would just be plain ignorance to leave the rest of us without.

I've been having to resort to using my ossc as a tvl buffer so the sprites don't have that jagged HD appearance you typically deal with at high resolutions. If Tink could do that and run a dithering filter, that would take care of all my concerns moving forward.

I do have a question though, how well does the Tink currently handle PC usage with games running a different number of resolutions, like 640x400 DOS to 800x600 Diablo? Has anyone posted results from those?
You mean downscaling from 1080p or what? How's the OSSC helping if that's what you mean?
The ossc helps by running half of 1920 pixels as tvls and that's roughly in the equivalent range of high end pvm/bvm models. If I were to downscale, then I lose all that pixel range that could be used as a higher line count. Also downscaling wouldn't be the biggest benefit to resolutions that don't have a scanline match per pixel as many times developers simply don't care about scanline accuracy. I have to run the ossc with 1080i on a few games for some reason to correct this, but the alt to those games that go by whatever settings to run their own scaling, anything that puts the tvls into focus is absolutely more important.
mikechi2 wrote:It would be more productive to take these demands to the developers of the remakes. Probably would also benefit far more people.
We've all made that effort and it's been proven time again and again they don't care to listen. Ports will always be inaccurate.

It really is the duty of the community to correct their shortcomings.
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bobrocks95
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by bobrocks95 »

headlesshobbs wrote:The ossc helps by running half of 1920 pixels as tvls and that's roughly in the equivalent range of high end pvm/bvm models. If I were to downscale, then I lose all that pixel range that could be used as a higher line count. Also downscaling wouldn't be the biggest benefit to resolutions that don't have a scanline match per pixel as many times developers simply don't care about scanline accuracy. I have to run the ossc with 1080i on a few games for some reason to correct this, but the alt to those games that go by whatever settings to run their own scaling, anything that puts the tvls into focus is absolutely more important.
I don't know what you mean by "TVLs" in this context. "running half of 1920 pixels as tvls" doesn't make sense to me. Do you mean scanlines? Adding scanlines with the OSSC versus using built-in scanline filters?

If so you could use a DAC with component out and run the console you want at 720p into the RT5X? Someone correct me if I'm wrong and you can't add scanlines to 720p content.
If you want to skip the DAC, the upcoming PixelFX Morph and OSSC Pro will both feature HDMI inputs.
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awe444
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by awe444 »

headlesshobbs wrote:The ossc helps by running half of 1920 pixels as tvls and that's roughly in the equivalent range of high end pvm/bvm models. If I were to downscale, then I lose all that pixel range that could be used as a higher line count.
It sounds like you’re trying to retain as much horizontal resolution as possible while downscaling? If so, the RetroTink 5X already has you covered in the sense that it doesn’t downscale horizontally, only vertically. For example, when you downscale from 720p to 240p, the RT5X samples at 1650 dots/line which is exactly the native dots/line of 720p, meaning no horizontal information is lost.

If what you’re saying instead is that changing the console output from 1080 to 720 corresponds to too much loss in horizontal resolution, then that’s a different issue. In general though the optimal output resolution for pixelated content on modern consoles will be dictated by how the console’s scaling those pixels vertically.
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Kez
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by Kez »

headlesshobbs wrote:
mikechi2 wrote:It would be more productive to take these demands to the developers of the remakes. Probably would also benefit far more people.
It really is the duty of the community to correct their shortcomings.
I think the issue here is one of tone. Statements like this:
headlesshobs wrote:otherwise it would just be plain ignorance to leave the rest of us without.
Are not constructive. Sure, Mike represents a (small) company, selling a product to consumers - but this product already delivers on every promise it ever made, and then has risen orders of magnitude beyond that with continuous amazing firmware updates. To imply Mike is ignorant by not meeting your extremely niche and specific demands (which I don't think you have even properly communicated? You want to horizontally downsample 1080p?) reeks of entitlement. In terms of community members performing their "duty", Mike Chi is standing at the very apex of this community. He has been extremely receptive to user requests, however yours comes across as very rude to my eyes.
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Re: RetroTINK 5x-Pro

Post by mikechi2 »

Kez wrote:
headlesshobbs wrote:
mikechi2 wrote:It would be more productive to take these demands to the developers of the remakes. Probably would also benefit far more people.
It really is the duty of the community to correct their shortcomings.
I think the issue here is one of tone. Statements like this:
headlesshobs wrote:otherwise it would just be plain ignorance to leave the rest of us without.
Are not constructive. Sure, Mike represents a (small) company, selling a product to consumers - but this product already delivers on every promise it ever made, and then has risen orders of magnitude beyond that with continuous amazing firmware updates. To imply Mike is ignorant by not meeting your extremely niche and specific demands (which I don't think you have even properly communicated? You want to horizontally downsample 1080p?) reeks of entitlement. In terms of community members performing their "duty", Mike Chi is standing at the very apex of this community. He has been extremely receptive to user requests, however yours comes across as very rude to my eyes.
Appreciate the kind words. And yeah, it just isn't realistic for me to take on these niche use cases. Again, how many people would it benefit from a solution requiring an obscure and expensive scaler vs. the developers actually treating the material correctly in the first place?
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