RetroTINK 5x-Pro

[anexanhume]

I know that the HDMI input has less lag than component on the 910/955/960 in like for like resolutions. From looking at the schematics, that makes sense as the HDMI input is passed directly to the DAC and converted to tube level inputs from the amps there on. The syncs are also passed straight through from looking at the schematics.

The syncs appear to have a path through muxes to be passed straight through just as the digital path is, but I’m sure the tube forcing digital processing on an analog input precludes that from being functionally possible.

That is not true for the 36HS420. Ive tested with a Time Sleuth direct to HDMI compared to converted with a DAC to the YPrPb inputs. The input lag was identical.

Right, which is why I made sure to specify the models I know it to be applicable to. I suspect it’s because of the three choices for upscaling processing on this model, even though the 960 is the only one to support the modes.

[vol.2]

Has anyone tried it with a DA4 chassis yet? I think the 34XBR960 is basically the same time period as the DA4 IIRC and shares the input section? Not 100% sure.

When experimenting with the HS510 and the Raspberry Pi, I had zero difficulty in outputting a 540p signal to the DVI input. I'm not sure why that would not work with the RT5X, but I also don't know what timings are actually being output to the set from the tink.

I guess if Mike were to chime in with the timings, I could compare them to what I got working with the Pi and see if there's anything really different going on.

I know that the HDMI input has less lag than component on the 910/955/960 in like for like resolutions. From looking at the schematics, that makes sense as the HDMI input is passed directly to the DAC and converted to tube level inputs from the amps there on. The syncs are also passed straight through from looking at the schematics.

The syncs appear to have a path through muxes to be passed straight through just as the digital path is, but I’m sure the tube forcing digital processing on an analog input precludes that from being functionally possible.

So, there is a current de-facto HDCRT thread atm, so I would appreciate if you could post that portion of the schematic in that thread. viewtopic.php?f=6&t=68605&start=135

FWIW, I recently went over the schematic for the HS510 series, and BOTH the component and the DVI inputs have secondary hits that bypass the primary digital input chips. They both go straight to the Component IF chip and onto the DRC so long as a 1080i/540p signal is detected.

I'd be curious to see the difference in the 960 schematic.

[incrediblehark]

Has anyone tried it with a DA4 chassis yet? I think the 34XBR960 is basically the same time period as the DA4 IIRC and shares the input section? Not 100% sure.

First off thanks for the links you posted! Helped me narrow down my issues.

My 40XBR800 is a DA4 chassis, but my B board is missing the components needed for true HDPT bypass to get 540p. Just unlucky timeframe for my set manufacture (10/2002 - 12/2002 affected dates).
My DVI and Component inputs all work fine with the 5x for anyone interested.

[bobrocks95]

Oooh how does the auto phase deal with some of the trickier sources the OSSC couldn't quite get right?

32X + Genesis background layering? Is there anything weird on the OSSC or 5X Pro with SNES hi-res modes where say a textbox at the top of the screen will be a different resolution than what's beneath it (maybe these have always called for generic sampling)?

[vol.2]

My 40XBR800 is a DA4 chassis, but my B board is missing the components needed for true HDPT bypass to get 540p. Just unlucky timeframe for my set manufacture (10/2002 - 12/2002 affected dates).
My DVI and Component inputs all work fine with the 5x for anyone interested.

Yes, that's what I remember reading about way back when. They literally added the HDPT in order to fix an issue with signal processing from some satellite cable network or something. I'm glad you were able to find the info. I guess any further discussion of this stuff should probably go to that other thread so we don't clog up the tink 5 thread...

[Einzelherz]

I completely forgot this thing existed and today I see I'm 30 pages behind. Luckily most of that is arguing about cables

The SCART port on this guy is "backwards" right? Does anyone have a recommendation male to female scart extension with a male end that can be reversed?

edit: I forgot to mention my original question. How well does in game resolution change work? Oddly enough the only one I'm particularly concerned with is Saturn Bomberman since it switches 240p 4:3 to 480i parabolic 16:9 when you play on the wide map. I assume the RetroTINK5x works great for this but I figured I'd ask about it specifically.

[vol.2]

Jeff Chen made a cool vertical stand that incorporates a scart port in the base as goes to BNC. Not sure if he's released the files yet. https://twitter.com/jeffqchen/status/14 ... 5240800262

[TooBeaucoup]

I completely forgot this thing existed and today I see I'm 30 pages behind. Luckily most of that is arguing about cables

The SCART port on this guy is "backwards" right? Does anyone have a recommendation male to female scart extension with a male end that can be reversed?

edit: I forgot to mention my original question. How well does in game resolution change work? Oddly enough the only one I'm particularly concerned with is Saturn Bomberman since it switches 240p 4:3 to 480i parabolic 16:9 when you play on the wide map. I assume the RetroTINK5x works great for this but I figured I'd ask about it specifically.

Resolution switches are virtually instant. There's quite a few YouTube videos showing it off. As for the Scart port, most people who are bothered just end up getting a flat Scart cable. I believe some people are making adapters, but none are available yet. Below is My Life in Gaming's video showing off the fast resolution switching

https://youtu.be/FvFzcn8NCb4?t=1758

Here's the flat scart cable I, and many other people use. It's top notch, but currently out of stock. I imagine alot of 5x users went out and grabbed them.

https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/eur ... to%20scart

[parodius]

Just wanted to mention that the 'Saturn 352' sampling mode is also a perfect fit for several PCE games, such as some of the Irem titles (R-Type, Mr Heli, Ninja Spirit, Legend Of Hero Tonma).
Mike, you might want to consider renaming the mode to 'Sat/PCE 352' in a future firmware revision.

Note that I have tested this only on a MiSTer, not yet on the original hardware I own, but I doubt it will be any different.

[Einzelherz]

I thought about it a little more and the "backwards" SCART port might actually work better for me since I don't keep my stuff plugged in at all times. I don't mind having the cable run from the floor back to the TV so I think I like it more now.

Just gotta wait for the next batch. I'm grumpy that I forgot about this coming out this summer

[Josh128]

I have some cool news on lightguns from some more testing this afternoon. I can confirm that the GunCon 2 works perfectly with the RT5X Pro @ 480p in framelock mode on a flat-tube VGA CRT! I first tested with my GBS-C and it only worked partially, and was completely unusable, as the aiming reticle, which was already a third of the screen off horizontally, would drift to the left even when I was aiming still at the center of the screen.

However, once I hooked up the 5X via an HDMI to component converter, it worked perfectly-- the aiming reticle was always exactly where I aimed the gun and did not drift or flicker at all. Although my video shows many misses, they were all due to me trying to film and shoot at the same time. If you look toward the end of the video, you can see me get some good hits. It worked great, I certainly didnt expect that after the GBS-C fail.

https://youtu.be/JyWIRESQfow

[rezb1t]

Just wanted to mention that the 'Saturn 352' sampling mode is also a perfect fit for several PCE games, such as some of the Irem titles (R-Type, Mr Heli, Ninja Spirit, Legend Of Hero Tonma).
Mike, you might want to consider renaming the mode to 'Sat/PCE 352' in a future firmware revision.

Note that I have tested this only on a MiSTer, not yet on the original hardware I own, but I doubt it will be any different.

I can confirm that Saturn 352 works for a real PC Engine + Super HD System 3 Pro RGB setup as well

[fernan1234]

I have some cool news on lightguns from some more testing this afternoon. I can confirm that the GunCon 2 works perfectly with the RT5X Pro @ 480p in framelock mode on a flat-tube VGA CRT! I first tested with my GBS-C and it only worked partially, and was completely unusable, as the aiming reticle, which was already a third of the screen off horizontally, would drift to the left even when I was aiming still at the center of the screen.

However, once I hooked up the 5X via an HDMI to component converter, it worked perfectly-- the aiming reticle was always exactly where I aimed the gun and did not drift or flicker at all. Although my video shows many misses, they were all due to me trying to film and shoot at the same time. If you look toward the end of the video, you can see me get some good hits. It worked great, I certainly didnt expect that after the GBS-C fail.

https://youtu.be/JyWIRESQfow

This is really cool, is this a first for VGA CRTs? On your GBS-C do you have the clockgen mod? I wonder if that would make a difference though probably not.

[maxtherabbit]

I have some cool news on lightguns from some more testing this afternoon. I can confirm that the GunCon 2 works perfectly with the RT5X Pro @ 480p in framelock mode on a flat-tube VGA CRT! I first tested with my GBS-C and it only worked partially, and was completely unusable, as the aiming reticle, which was already a third of the screen off horizontally, would drift to the left even when I was aiming still at the center of the screen.

However, once I hooked up the 5X via an HDMI to component converter, it worked perfectly-- the aiming reticle was always exactly where I aimed the gun and did not drift or flicker at all. Although my video shows many misses, they were all due to me trying to film and shoot at the same time. If you look toward the end of the video, you can see me get some good hits. It worked great, I certainly didnt expect that after the GBS-C fail.

https://youtu.be/JyWIRESQfow

Which resolution was the PS2 running in and did you hook up the sync to the gun pre or post scaler?

[Josh128]

PS2 was in standard 480i mode, and I connected the video jack of the GunCon 2 to a Y connection on the input /Luma of the 5X. I didnt have a way to force to 480p, this game Dino Stalker that I used did not give me the option. As far as the GBS-C, it does have the clockgen mod installed and I confirmed its working via the GBS-C menu and the fact that I've never seen a single tear on any display on which Ive used it.


As far as the 480i/480p output of the PS2, that brings me to my next test that I just got finished doing. Tested the 36HS420 with the GunCon and 5X and was not able to get it working. It tracks on the vertical axis but not on the horizontal. To Max's question I tried connecting the GunCon video to both the input of the 5X and then the output of the Porta DAC. The one that semi-worked was connecting at the input. When I connected to the output of the Portta, I got nothing-- the game couldnt even tell the gun was pointed at the screen.


Putting all this together, I just need to figure out why it worked perfectly on the VGA CRT and failed on the HD CRT. I do know from previous TS testing that 240p and 480i input resolutions registered about 3.1 -3.25 ms of lag via the 5X on the HD CRT in 540p mode, while 480p input resolution was twice as fast at 1.6 ms of lag. This may be the difference between the VGA CRT working and the HD CRT not working, even though I tested both of them at 480i input / bob output. I'd have to hook the TS to the VGA CRT in the same chain as I tested the HD CRT and see what it shows. Its also possible that it may have something to do with displaying 480i or 480p in a 540p frame that throws the timing off. I plan to re-test on the VGA monitor and see how different settings affect the operation, such as bob vs other deinterlacing modes, frame lock vs triple buffer, and different output resolutions. If I can find a way to force the PS2 to 480p I can also test that on both the monitor and the HD CRT. With the 3.2 vs 1.6 ms of lag difference I measured from 480i vs 480p inputs with 540p output on the HD CRT, I'd say theres still a chance I can get it to work, but if it requires 480p from the PS2, its starting to get to the point where its no too practical anymore. We'll see.

Video of the test on HD CRT

https://youtu.be/l1wXAhJspow

[incrediblehark]

Thats exactly what my guncon looked like when I tested on hdcrt the other day. Of course mine had more lag, but maybe you're right that just that little bit is affecting it. Do you have any way to use GSM on your PS2 to force 480p? Not sure if there are other ways.

As for the other video, I'm really impressed that it worked and excited to try this out for myself! Time to pull out my vga crt...

[Josh128]

I have a PS2 Xploder CD that allows different res selection at boot and it appears that GSM might be an option as well, I'll have to look into it. If GSM can force 1080i or 540p on its own, then GunCon 2 operation might be achievable without any kind of scaler at all. I need to do more research into why the VGA monitor works vs why the HD CRT @ 540p doesnt work, and also why I measured double the lag with the TS when feeding the 5X 240p or 480i vs feeding it with 480p.

I do plan to do some more tinkering though.

[Josh128]

The plot thickens. It seems that the GunCon 2 not working on HD CRT has less to do with input lag (which should be sufficient) and more to do with output resolution mismatch.

This is a quick video showing how the GunCon 2 works with the RT5X Pro on flat tube VGA CRTs and how it only works with one specific output resolution-- 480p, and only in frame lock mode. Interestingly enough, the type of de-interlacing used does not adversely affect the GunCon 2 operation, even though motion-adaptive is supposed to add additional lag vs bob or weave (someone correct me if Im wrong there). Other modes allow for detection of the gun pointed at the screen, but you get the same lack of horizontal reticle tracking, with vertical tracking seemingly working.

I also used an HD Xploder disc to force the PS2 to 480p output, then ran the same tests-- and the GunCon 2 did not work at all, as it could not even tell when I was pointing at the screen. This is even more interesting because this particular game, Dino Stalker, still presents as 480i even when you force the PS2 into 480p mode, this is a known issue with certain games. Despite appearing as identical to standard 480i with bob deinterlacing, it did not work at all. This makes me question my earlier idea that maybe forcing the PS2 to 1080i output and feeding directly to the TV might somehow get the gun to work. From what I've tested here, I now very much doubt it.

This video was uploaded as 720p60, but YT is still processing it and until its finished, it will only show up as 360p30. If it looks like ass now, maybe try later as the 720p60 video looks much better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6uDpaxd5Kg

**EDIT - I also tested direct connected (no RT5X) to my 36 SD Trinitron Wega. It worked fine and the reticle appeared and moved EXACTLY the same as the RT5X + VGA CRT. Strangely enough, the game shows that its connected to a "high resolution monitor" when I use the 5X CRT combo, and doesnt show that when connected to my Trinitron. I only used the Y to connect to a front composite connector on my Trinitron though, maybe it would have shown the "high resolution monitor" if I had connected all of the component connections. Maybe its a mode to help offset the fuzziness of composite only connections, I dont know.

[headlesshobbs]

I'm looking at those filters with the low tvl's and i'm wondering if there's a setting to make the vertical lines darker?

One of the more common things I've seen with arcade monitors is how regular scanlines can be so faint that when it comes to solid blues, reds, etc they will vanish entirely, but you'll still have the tvl count and they'll hardly be affected by high bloom sources.

[thebigcheese]

Interestingly enough, the type of de-interlacing used does not adversely affect the GunCon 2 operation, even though motion-adaptive is supposed to add additional lag vs bob or weave (someone correct me if Im wrong there). Other modes allow for detection of the gun pointed at the screen, but you get the same lack of horizontal reticle tracking, with vertical tracking seemingly working.

Per the user manual: "None of the deinterlacer options add lag."

[Josh128]

Interestingly enough, the type of de-interlacing used does not adversely affect the GunCon 2 operation, even though motion-adaptive is supposed to add additional lag vs bob or weave (someone correct me if Im wrong there). Other modes allow for detection of the gun pointed at the screen, but you get the same lack of horizontal reticle tracking, with vertical tracking seemingly working.

Per the user manual: "None of the deinterlacer options add lag."

Ah, thanks. That makes sense then. One thing I havent yet done is measure the input lag from the 5X to the VGA CRT with my Time Sleuth. Im curious to see how it compares to the 540p output to HDPT-enabled HD CRT. It measured ~3.05ms - 3.2ms @ input res of 240p/480i, while input res of 480p measured ~1.6ms. In framelocked mode that is.

[Josh128]

Did some input lag testing for the 15kHz downscale function of the 5X Pro here. Very impressive speeds when in framelock, and it can downscale everything from 1080i to 480i to a solid 240p picture. I continue to be impressed by the versatility of this little box!

[strayan]

Can anyone post a couple of lossless screencaps of the new aperture grill scanlines settings at 3x (do they even work at 720p?), 5x and 6x?

Thanks.

[Jenrai]

So currently I have tried 1440p on both my PS1 and PS2 and what happens is I get a boxed picture with black borders all around it.

This is my TV https://www.amazon.com/TCL-50S425-inch- ... r=8-3&th=1

I also looked it up to see if it supported 1440p and according to https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/tcl/4-series-2019 it seems to do 1440p 60Hz, if I am reading it correctly. Any idea what is wrong?

[strayan]

So currently I have tried 1440p on both my PS1 and PS2 and what happens is I get a boxed picture with black borders all around it.

This is my TV https://www.amazon.com/TCL-50S425-inch- ... r=8-3&th=1

I also looked it up to see if it supported 1440p and according to https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/tcl/4-series-2019 it seems to do 1440p 60Hz, if I am reading it correctly. Any idea what is wrong?

Sounds like it is displaying 1920x1440 1:1 on a 3840x2160 panel. I wish all TVs handled input signals like this by default! Very cool!

That said, some of those TCL TVs support integer scaling (TCL pushed out new firmware update that adds this feature). If this is the case and you want 240p content to be displayed full screen you would need to set your Retrotink 5x to output 3x (720p) and allow the TV to then line triple to 2160p.

[Jenrai]

So currently I have tried 1440p on both my PS1 and PS2 and what happens is I get a boxed picture with black borders all around it.

This is my TV https://www.amazon.com/TCL-50S425-inch- ... r=8-3&th=1

I also looked it up to see if it supported 1440p and according to https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/tcl/4-series-2019 it seems to do 1440p 60Hz, if I am reading it correctly. Any idea what is wrong?

Sounds like it is displaying 1920x1440 1:1 on a 3840x2160 panel. I wish all TVs handled input signals like this by default! Very cool!

That said, some of those TCL TVs support integer scaling (TCL pushed out new firmware update that adds this feature). If this is the case and you want 240p content to be displayed full screen you would need to set your Retrotink 5x to output 3x (720p) and allow the TV to then line triple to 2160p.

Ah. Thank you for your reply! I apologize if I am out of my element (which I am) but when you state that I should allow the TV to line triple the output, is this something that is done automatically or something I need to do manually?

[strayan]

So currently I have tried 1440p on both my PS1 and PS2 and what happens is I get a boxed picture with black borders all around it.

This is my TV https://www.amazon.com/TCL-50S425-inch- ... r=8-3&th=1

I also looked it up to see if it supported 1440p and according to https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/tcl/4-series-2019 it seems to do 1440p 60Hz, if I am reading it correctly. Any idea what is wrong?

Sounds like it is displaying 1920x1440 1:1 on a 3840x2160 panel. I wish all TVs handled input signals like this by default! Very cool!

That said, some of those TCL TVs support integer scaling (TCL pushed out new firmware update that adds this feature). If this is the case and you want 240p content to be displayed full screen you would need to set your Retrotink 5x to output 3x (720p) and allow the TV to then line triple to 2160p.

Ah. Thank you for your reply! I apologize if I am out of my element (which I am) but when you state that I should allow the TV to line triple the output, is this something that is done automatically or something I need to do manually?

No problem. Yeah, you have to make the change manually. What you need to do is change the input label to "Computer". This turns off the sharpness setting and turns on the nearest-neighbor scaling for 720p. You will obviously need to check whether your TV is among those that have received the firmware update though - there is a thread about the update here https://community.roku.com/t5/Discussio ... d-p/650885

Edit: it looks like older models may not even need the update, fingers crossed!

You should also experiment with the 1080p out from the retrotink 5x as well because it appears compatible TCL TV’s can either line double 1080p to 2160p OR line triple 720p to 2160p and 5x 1080p is generally better for the reasons outlined in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5X7_dpdWwM

[Jenrai]

Well strangely enough I swapped it to Computer and no change was seen whatsoever.

[strayan]

Well strangely enough I swapped it to Computer and no change was seen whatsoever.

Did you change the output of the Retrotink to 720p or 1080p?

[Jenrai]

Well strangely enough I swapped it to Computer and no change was seen whatsoever.

Did you change the output of the Retrotink to 720p or 1080p?

Yep. Tried both. Looked exactly the same.