Beat 'em Ups (Including Switch List)

[RuySan]

Meanwhile fighting huge crowds of enemies, and blocking mechanics or large selections of fighter inspired moves doesn't seem to click very well with me, but I'm open to try anything.

Same here. I hate that modern beat em ups, such as Double Dragon Neo or Castle Crashers, use so many buttons, usually for unfun stuff such as "block". None of these games are nowhere near as good as some classics that only use 2 buttons such as Cadillacs and Dinosaurs and The Punisher, so I end up not bothering much with newer beat em ups. Except for SoR 4 which is absolutely glorious.

[Mischief Maker]

Also got Streets of Rage 4 and Fight 'n Rage on the way in the mail, very excited for those as well.

Note on Fight'n Rage: There are several moves that aren't covered in the initial tutorial screen, you can learn about those in the unlockable training extra. But even then there are certain moves that are intentionally kept secret.

Also the mid-game save is a little wonky. You need to actually die and fully count down the continue screen to earn coins for unlockables. If you just start a fresh game with one already in progress, the earned coins will be lost.

[FinalBaton]

I think SoR is somewhat underated in the trilogy and really damn solid. I'd give it a try if I were you.

King of Dragons is now my #1 beat 'em up to play with friends. Of the simpler button mashers, I think it's one of the most fun. Not sure you'll like that kind tho. Despite its simplicity, it's still fun to fence against groups of orc captains, skeletons and Sahuagins.

Turtles In Time as I wrote last week in the other thread, I've soured on a bit. I used to worship that ganme but playing it recently I find it a bit bland.

The botton line is that the first two I find entertaining to play amd the last one, not as much anymore. I'm not very articulate to express why that is in game mechanics terms. But still can tell when it's gonna be entertaining to a good player or not.

[Squire Grooktook]

Since Sumez mentioned getting into some brawlers in the monogatari thread, here's Squire's quick-e beat-em-up thoughts/recommendations:

>Final Fight

The original and classic. It's the Hishouzame of the genre, though honestly far more rude and janky. A good meat and potatoes experience though it's difficulty is not recommended to a newcomer, especially how a lot of it is a janky sort of difficulty based on the player being slow and lacking options to deal with many situations in a non-pre-emptive way.

>Pretty Soldier Sailor Moon

Despite looking like an anime cash-in, this one seems to consistently rank high on experienced players rankings, probably because it's essentially Final Fight for those who want a more polished experience. Again, meat and potatoes with no special gimmicks, but more polished as well as savagely difficult in a way that relies on devious enemy AI rather than stiff player handling. Be warned it's brutal. Also Sailor Mercury best girl.

>Denjin Makai and Denjina Makai 2 / Guardians

Almost approaching AVP (see below) in terms of ludicrously fun/deep movesets and movement mechanics, the Denjin games are most notable for the fighting-game-esque way they handle their larger than average movesets: special attacks offer great power and utility (some of which double use for movement), but are balanced by needing meter (or in the case of the ultimate desperation supers, low health). Meter can be restored by either wacking enemies (as usual), but also by standing still to enter a King-of-Fighters-esque charge animation. It has a block mechanic, which is nicely useful for when the very fast and numerous enemies in this game swarm you. Lastly it's a good one for co-op since the aforementioned special moves can combine into unique team attacks when they collide.

>King of Dragon's

Seemingly even simpler than Final Fight, but in truth this game is totally different from your average beltscroller. Instead of a fighting game-esque spacing game built around instaneous attacks on both sides, King of Dragon's feels more like a modern hack and slash in that all enemy attacks animations are reactable and players are gifted with a parry mechanic that can deflect blows on reaction. Also notable for having no combos, only simple 1 button slashes. It's main issue however is its length. It's got a bit of Gradius V syndrome going on in that it feels exhaustingly long for a single credit run and you'll need to clear your schedule once your halfway decent at the game. Also don't play the ranged characters you cowards. Why would you do that? What is wrong with you...?

>Knights of The Round

Forming a sort of trilogy of fantasy-themed brawlers with blocking mechanics alongside this and the D&D collection, Knights of The Round takes KoD's basic mechanics and makes them more traditionally brawler-esque by adding combos, mounts (in place of temporary pick-up weapons you see in other belt scrollers) and a slightly more in-depth moveset. Some might be tempted to write this off as a less advanced D&D Mystara game, but in truth Knights of The Round carves out its own niche by focusing much more on parry-i-frame exploitation. Every blocked attack grants players a MASSIVE amount of i-frames, enough that you can straight up walk around while invincibly flashing, and the game is heavily built around baiting blocks and cashing in on the invulnerability.

>Alien Vs Predator

This is not just the best belt scroller ever made, it's one of the best action games ever made. Period. Treasure-esque explosive pacing/variety and deviously unpredictable enemy AI are all wrapped around one of the most killer acrobatic combat engines ever conceived. At first your just surviving, but eventually you're styling on foes with the games incredible aerial movement mechanics that let you zig zag across the screen mid strike, clever combo mechanics, and razor sharp toolbox of a moveset. PLAY IT (start as Predator Warrior).

>Armored Warriors

In a similar vein to AVP, this is the late end of ultra advanced and sophisticated brawlers from when Capcom's beltscrolling teams were working at the pinnacle of their experience and knowledge. Again like AVP, what seperates it from others is an emphasis on movement, but instead of acrobatic jump physics that let you approach and evade from any angle, instead AW gives you a vanilla move speed and dash that's so manueverable you'd be able to run circles around most normal beltscroller enemies. Naturally enemies in both speed and swarm size are able to match you. AW thus has a flexible, simple, and fast paced style that feels more like a shmup or a platformer with its emphasis on constant on your toes manuevering.




Other games I like but haven't spent enough time with (or haven't played in long enough time to give an accurate synopsis of):

Sonic Blast Man 2 (SNES)
Splatterhouse 3 (JP Megadrive) (A map, a perilous ticking clock, and a limited but brutal super form turn this brawler into body exploding eldritch seek-and-destroy savagery)
Dungeons and Dragon's Tower of Doom (DON'T think of this as just the less advanced version of Mystara, it's a whole different beast with a more "traditional" take on the mechanics and structure that's worth visiting on its own terms)
Dungeons and Dragon's Shadow Over Mystara (I feel I still don't fully understand the combo engine to talk that much about it, but you probably know all about this one now...just don't make the mistake of passing it off as the "definitive" version of Capcom's fantasy brawlers, since they all offer something unique)
Battle Circuit
Sengoku 3 (Seems to elicit mixed feelings from more experienced players, but from a casual perspective I have some affection for its slick animation and combo mechanics)
The Punisher (Often shows up on "baby's first 1cc recommendation" lists from experienced players. Flexible and polished like Capcom's other late-stage brawlers, yet more more mechanically straight forward and forgiving)

[__SKYe]

Echoing Baton, the first Bare Knuckle is good, though folks who go into it expecting it to play like BK2/3 will probably end up disappointed. Even though it shares many elements with its sequels, it is really its own thing. The lack of the standard desperation attack in favour of the scarce but powerful police specials makes a significant difference and the no special attacks boss rush if the highlight of the game for me.
The hard difficulty is great if you want a tougher game, as bosses become especially deadly, but the hardest one isn't too fun for regular play -- the main difference is that enemies have bloated HP (boss damage/HP is the same, I believe), which just makes things take too long on an already long game, as par for the series.

Final Fight 2 is what the original FF game on the SFC should have been. It's very much a standard, consolised FF without all the special attacks/routes from the third game and very much worth playing if you enjoy the FF-type of games. It does look a bit drab with all the shades of yellow/brown, and, much like Bare Knuckle, the highest difficulty gets farily boring as it inflates enemy HP a bit too much.

Sailor Moon R is also a very solid FF-type game and has the benefit of being fairly short. We've talked a bunch about it on the RR2KMF thread (what hasn't been discussed there ) and Welsh made a thread specifically about the Sailor Moon series of beat-em-ups here.

Natsume's Power Rangers game is somewhere between Spartan X and Ninja Warriors Again -- probably more to the Spartan X side than NWA. I think Kitten has a video of it on her Youtube channel. I may be misremembering the exact game, but I think it is this Power Rangers game.

I remember Shin Nekketsu Kōha: Kunio-tachi no Banka being pretty fun, though when I last played I was still not very into the Technos school of beat-em-ups. If you enjoy Technos' previous Kunio-kun/Double Dragon output you'll probably enjoy this one too.
The other SFC game is not as good, though. It is more in the vein of River City Ransom with all the RPG-like stuff, including experience levels, and has lots of dialogue/free roaming. Definitely not an arcade-style game.

Of games not on your list, the normal SFC Sailor Moon (not R) is also a pretty solid game, though not quite to the level of SMR and definitely worth a try.
Pirates of the Dark Waters (SFC) is another solid game, its main fault being that it is too long (even longer than BK). I think Kitten also has a video of it.

[Sumez]

King of Dragons is now my #1 beat 'em up to play with friends. Of the simpler button mashers, I think it's one of the most fun. Not sure you'll like that kind tho. Despite its simplicity, it's still fun to fence against groups of orc captains, skeletons and Sahuagins.

I should note I wanted to play the SNES version as I bought that some time back.
However, I played around a bit with credit feeding the arcade version in Capcom's Belt Action collection some days ago, and I'm a little split on the game.
On one hand it's Dungeons & Dragons without all the resource management and gimmicky abilities and situations, so that's really good. But on the other hand it might also just be a tad too simple?
As far as I can tell, the regular melee characters got basically two moves - hitting stuff, and blocking. And blocking is really weird, since it involves pulling away from enemies, so unlike versus fighters, you'll actually turn your back to them, but still issue a block when they hit.
I don't know if that'll ever feel intuitive to me, but it seems pretty essential, since any enemies can easily decide to hit back while you're doing a combo on them. Some of the bosses also seem completely impossible to me. I'll give it a try on SNES soon, that version might be a little less ruthless.

Turtles In Time as I wrote last week in the other thread, I've soured on a bit. I used to worship that ganme but playing it recently I find it a bit bland.

I popped it in a couple of days ago as well, and it was pretty much exactly as I remembered it - not very exciting. As far as I can tell, there's not really much you can do for crowd control due to the awkward nature of the throws, so the primary tactical aspect is your own positioning, I guess.
I played through the first two stages with little issue, and then put on Konami's Batman Returns instead, which immediately felt like a much better game, though with some awkward chokepoints.

[Sumez]

Some small thoughts on the games Squire mentioned:

>Final Fight
I love the mechanics, obviously it plays right into my tastes - I love Streets of Rage, and some of the other games in the Final Fight series I played. I think the original arcade game suffers exactly from the things Squire said though. It might just be that I suck of course, but the game feels stressful and punishing to me, rather than pure fun. I've been considering checking out the GBA version as it's reportedly much more fleshed out than the SNES port, while still not as ruthless as the arcade.

>Pretty Soldier Sailor Moon
This game looks so good. :O I like the graphics much better than the (honestly really ugly) SNES games.

>Denjin Makai and Denjina Makai 2 / Guardians
Been looking out for a copy of the SFC port of one od the Denjin Makai games, but it's not cheap, and based on the way you're drescribing them, I'm not even sure I'll like them.

>Knights of The Round
This description really made me want to play the game more, despite already stating I'm not fond of block mechanics in brawlers. I'll check it out again on the belt collection. Only played it very superficially. SFC version seems relatively cheap, but importing is gonna be almost impossible for me after July, so I'm gonna make the descision if I want that one now

>Alien Vs Predator
We've discussed this on multiple occasions, and unfortunately I just don't enjoy the game much. I really love it on a superficial level, but going into the mechanics and trying for a 1CC, I'll just occasionally take punishment with absolutely no real idea what I did wrong, and that lack of feedback really didn't sit well with me. It's a very different type of game from the Final Fight formula, and I'm not sure it's for me. It's also incredibly strict, with no real ways to earn extends along the way. I'll take a super tough game with a lot of leeway for mistakes any day over a mostly manageable one where any single misstep will ruin your run.
I got a CPS2 cart, and I'll probably keep it around in case the game suddenly clicks for me. But if I ever get the chance to trade it for a Battle Circuit, I'll probably do that.

>Armored Warriors
Been on my "I need to check this out" list for a while. After peripherally trying it out though (belt collection, again), I didn't feel much attachment to it. Mechanically it didn't feel fun, but it might easily be that I just don't "understand" its unique gameplay yet.
And there's something off-putting about its graphical style. It looks great in screenshots, but in action it feels like those reusable sticker books kids have, like the sprites don't really belong on the background graphics.

> Splatterhouse 3 (JP Megadrive)
Played around with this for the first 3 or 4 floors, and mechanically it's pretty addictive, but there's some annoying elements to it, like the way some enemies can get jabs in if you don't take caution in awkward ways - you can't just "out-zone" the regular zakos. Also, it seems to me that safely making it through a floor in time, and ideally pick up both a weapon and a 1up on the way, requires some routing that's just trial and error.

> Dungeons and Dragons Tower of Doom
Played around a lot with this game right when I got the cartridge, and I really, really liked it. No matter how well I do though, I'll get wrecked by the black dragon fight, so I need to practice that one.
I made the mistake of getting a Japanese language version, so the resource management gets much harder than it needs to be, and that was probably the primary reason I stopped playing.

> Dungeons and Dragons Shadow Over Mystara
Curiously, this one didn't click with me as well as Tower of Doom. I made sure to get an English version this time though (even if it matters less, with the icons you get for spells and items now). It seems to rely more on rote knowledge of how to deal with each individual setup? Or maybe it's just that I haven't played it as much.
Both D&D games offer constantly changing scenery and new mooks to fight at every new step, so they really have the upper hand above almost everything else in the genre in terms of avoiding the sense of repetition that a lot of games risk falling into.

> Battle Circuit
The little I played of this made it seem like it plays right into my tastes. Need to give it a solid chance later.

> The Punisher
Really really really want to try this game. It looks so great. It's also absurdly expensive.

[Sumez]

Final Fight 2 is what the original FF game on the SFC should have been. It's very much a standard, consolised FF without all the special attacks/routes from the third game and very much worth playing if you enjoy the FF-type of games. It does look a bit drab with all the shades of yellow/brown, and, much like Bare Knuckle, the highest difficulty gets farily boring as it inflates enemy HP a bit too much.

That's good to hear. I've seen a lot of hate for FF2 around, and from what little I played it felt "good, but uninspired". I'll just try it out on normal, I guess.
I played Final Fight Tough through on normal difficulty some years ago, and it felt very easy. Have you played it, and if so, do you know if the highest difficulty comes with similar caveats?

[Marc]

Natsume's Power Rangers game is somewhere between Spartan X and Ninja Warriors Again -- probably more to the Spartan X side than NWA. I think Kitten has a video of it on her Youtube channel. I may be misremembering the exact game, but I think it is this Power Rangers game.

Oh, this sounds right up my alley, what system is this, arcade or SNES?

[Squire Grooktook]

>Alien Vs Predator
We've discussed this on multiple occasions, and unfortunately I just don't enjoy the game much. I really love it on a superficial level, but going into the mechanics and trying for a 1CC, I'll just occasionally take punishment with absolutely no real idea what I did wrong, and that lack of feedback really didn't sit well with me. It's a very different type of game from the Final Fight formula, and I'm not sure it's for me. It's also incredibly strict, with no real ways to earn extends along the way. I'll take a super tough game with a lot of leeway for mistakes any day over a mostly manageable one where any single misstep will ruin your run.
I got a CPS2 cart, and I'll probably keep it around in case the game suddenly clicks for me. But if I ever get the chance to trade it for a Battle Circuit, I'll probably do that.

It's much less strict than it seems, really. You only get 2 lives but health restores are incredibly plentiful and you can take quite a bit of punishment before you lose a life. I'd say as far as beltscroller 1cc's go it's probably comfortably in the middle section (interestingly Armored Warriors is often listed on the higher end because even though it's about the same raw difficulty-wise, it gives out MUCH less health restores. Very stingy game).

As for stray hits...I don't know, it's really cut from the same mold as every other brawler: attack from optimal distance / angle and you're safe, let enemies get up in your grill in jab range and you risk getting hit. Simple as that. AVP just gives you more options to attack from different angles and advance with an active hitbox. It is a very fast paced game with high movement and very large enemy waves so it might just take some adjusting to keeping up with the action.

[Sumez]

Natsume's Power Rangers game is somewhere between Spartan X and Ninja Warriors Again -- probably more to the Spartan X side than NWA. I think Kitten has a video of it on her Youtube channel. I may be misremembering the exact game, but I think it is this Power Rangers game.

Oh, this sounds right up my alley, what system is this, arcade or SNES?

Natsume made two Power Rangers games on SNES. I think the one SKYe is talking about is the one just called "Mighty Morphin Power Rangers". It has some platforming elements too, which reminds me of the Capcom Marvel games on SNES as well.

Power Rangers The Movie feels more Spartan X-like to me, but has two planes that you can switch between with the shoulder buttons.

[FinalBaton]

Yep I meant SNES port for King Of Dragons. Ah I did warn you it's simple! But I nonetheless enjoy it a ton. And as I've said : it's pulled out when friends are over for couch coop since it's simple and easier for casual players to get into. The number of enemies on screen is just right, hitting feels satisfying, it's quick and snappy and the music, sfx and visuals are just god excellent for my tastes (I might like the SNES visuals more than arcade...). The package is jusg irresistible, and I'm entenrtained by the action all the way through. It's a rare case where I forgive a severe lack of depth. I was surprised ar how decent the boss fights are, too.

I had the Saturn D&D comp but sold it. I remember being in awe of the game but recently looking at some footage of the game, I'm worried I won't like it as much because I'm not sure I want to deal with item management these days. There's also something about the feel of the game and handling of the character that I'm not sure is gonna be as satisfying as a Streets Of Rage or Ninja Warriors.

[Marc]

I like the premise of the D&D games, but yeah, I always found item management unnatural and fiddly.

[Bassa-Bassa]

(I might like the SNES visuals more than arcade...).

How come? They're literally a downgrade. Just curious.

Proper item management in the D&D games depends first off on a comfortable button layout, if you ask me. I'm used to an arcade joystick and it works well there after some practice, but I guess a control pad's shoulder buttons should be okay as well for item usage. Non-magic characters are obviously more suited for beginners specially with Mystara. I don't think one should approach this series expecting the feel of a Final Fight-like game. Tower of Doom and Mystara are actually quite different each other in this regard, the former being the natural evolution of Golden Axe whereas the latter is its own unique combo-heavy thing (until IGS copied it a bit later) with its many ways to approach the game (every character essentially determines a different difficulty level). Mastering both of them has a lot to do with learning the exploits and the items effect more than skill, so part of the fun is finding them out, if that's your thing.

[__SKYe]

That's good to hear. I've seen a lot of hate for FF2 around, and from what little I played it felt "good, but uninspired". I'll just try it out on normal, I guess.

That's a good description of the game.
It is very solid mechanically, and it plays similar to Final Fight Guy which fixed the horrible slowdown the original SFC version had, though you have three characters again.

The hard difficulty is the sweet spot, I think, if you end up clearing it on normal and want the extra challenge. Some enemies (the Andores especially) have a bit too much HP but not to the level of the hardest difficulty, which just makes some sections a slog.

Again, much like Bare Knuckle, the hardest difficulty is certainly not unplayable, far from it actually, but gets a tad too boring for regular play.

I played Final Fight Tough through on normal difficulty some years ago, and it felt very easy. Have you played it, and if so, do you know if the highest difficulty comes with similar caveats?

Sorry, this is the one I've played the least, by far; I don't think I have even 1CCed it yet.

Regarding the GBA port, while it is more complete than most ports (and as a couple extra characters) I've come to agree with Vludi that the extra boss i-framesn that it (and most ports) suffers from really brings it down a notch. It's certainly a nice port and still one of my favourites, but it is something to keep in mind.

Oh, this sounds right up my alley, what system is this, arcade or SNES?

Yeah, Marc, it's Mighty Morphin Power Rangers for the SFC.

Maybe comparing it to Spartan X is a bit of a stretch; perhaps it is more along the lines of the arcade Ninja Warriors game, which is still very much in line with the Irem-style as opposed to Ninja Warriors Again and Crude Buster, which spill a fair bit into beat-em-up territory.

From I remember, it is a fairly breezy game too, so don't set your hopes too high.

[BIL]

Warms my heart to see you guys specifying the Japanese version of Splatterhouse 3. (as mentioned a few times over the years, the US version's OP roundhouse completely obviates the rest of its nice FFesque moveset - though it's still a hell of an experience, aesthetically)

> Splatterhouse 3 (JP Megadrive)
Played around with this for the first 3 or 4 floors, and mechanically it's pretty addictive, but there's some annoying elements to it, like the way some enemies can get jabs in if you don't take caution in awkward ways - you can't just "out-zone" the regular zakos.

You have to make keen use of Rick (either Rick)'s long reach. Outzoning the "headless" isn't difficult (note the slightly off-axis footing):

Spoiler

However, their combo has deceptively nasty speed and priority. You can see the one above start, though it's stuffed by my roundhouse, and would've been even by the regular body/upper finish (I roundhouse to demonstrate the neat "combo storage" - note how it continues into the finishers on the second sequence of hits, rather than resetting to jabs). If you get caught, floor them immediately with [attack+jump], which like in any good beater, you can set up by holding either button. In the example above, I keep [attack] held so the roundhouse lashes out seamlessly. (how rad is it, when the zako is a headless, handless corpse that murders you with its jagged wrist stumps? grindcore beltscroller )

Roundhouse is great for carving out breathing spaces, too. Instant, invincible bi-directional knockdown with zero recovery. Does nil damage, exactly as it should. With aggressive, learned use, you can use it to stuff otherwise unstoppable heavy/boss combos, and generally force your way into otherwise impossible situations. Model finesse maneuver.

Spoiler

Conversely, while the zako have a nasty combo, I find Game Master difficulty's mid-tiers a bit knockdown-happy. Lots of otherwise trifling hits that'll send Rick into a lengthy convalescence. I guess it's meant to eat into your time, OutRun-style, but I'd have gone with a middle stagger state. (for the love of god: in the "poltergeist" rooms, make sure you're walking - jumping will see you knocked down ad nauseam)

Beyond combat itself, SHp3's operative challenge is learning where/how to deploy Monster Rick. HENTAI TENTACLES (same input as RH) have obscene power and range, and his regular arsenal will steadily bludgeon heavies and bosses to writhing gristle - but the obvious rub is, once you've whipped out the monster, that load's getting blown. A couple big bangs for the trouble spots? Or several smaller pops, for zako-squashing momentum? Answer varies by stage, and player style. A charming FFesque with paint-strippingly hellacious body/occult/slasher style, whose real forte is in longterm time-attack demolition.

Spoiler

Spoiler

^^^ punish guard-happy enemies (ie most bosses) with their own blockstun, like so. CHOKE EM GOOD

[Sumez]

Thanks for the detailed writeup on Splatterhouse 3
Maybe I'll give it another chance in the future, with those notes in mind, but I'd definitely need a mapped out route - don't have the patience for making those up myself. And the odd angling on approaching headless zakos is exactly the stuff I was talking about taking caution in awkward ways when approaching them. Since they are often thrown in to act as nuisances in the midst of tougher challenges (as zako should), it results in a lot of situations where not taking damage from them feels harder to me than it should be :\



Played a tiny bit of X-Men: Mutant Apocalypse yesterday, and damn this game is super sweet. The first of Capcom's two single-plane brawlers on SNES. It's probably the closest they ever came to making their own version of TNWA. It's not quite there at all, but I feel like given a third game in this series they might have thought to introduce grabs/throws and more enemy encounters that block off progress.

It's been a couple of years since I played War of the Gems (which is actually the sequel to this game), but I recall not liking that game much - which is weird, because the way I recall it, it feels almost mechanically identical to this one. I need to replay that as well, to find out what makes Mutant Apocalypse click better with me.

I checked out some expert replays on YouTube, and unfortunately most of the game's challenges seem to get reduced to to repeated simple moves and rushing past enemies at that point, which definitely murders its potential for longevity, but simply just playing around with it casually, it's pretty enjoyable.

[BIL]

Launching attacks from slightly off-axis, so the approaching target walks straight into your active frames, is fundamental in a lot of beltscrollers. I'd compare it to bullet herding in STGs/run+guns. If you're getting beaten to the punch, give it a go - I'm still pretty new to the genre, and surprised at how consistently it works. Konami and Capcom closely followed Technos's blueprint, and SHp3 is very much an FF-alike, so no surprise there.

Double Dragon II - neutralising Chin's nasty frame advantage:

Spoiler

Crime Fighters - fighting Dragos head-on is a bad idea...

Spoiler

...but off-axis back kicks will demolish them. Note the zako getting obliterated head-on, PPP eats him 4 FREE ;3

Spoiler

Grabbing bosses from off-axis is another really valuable technique in SHp3. Same principle as dominating Final Fight's Sodom, a real counterintutive asshole of a boss.

[Sumez]

Some more initial thoughts on the games I've poked at a bit, because I'm bored:

Final Fight 2:
Don't think I have the patience to play this through. I can see why people aren't fond of it. It feels like no matter which enemy mix I'm getting, I always end up in the same pattern of getting all three enemies to one of the sides of the screen where I'll repeat knocking them out and have to wait for them to get back and repeat the process. It gets old and repetitive very fast. Would have benefited from smarter enemies and preferably more than just three on the screen.

Sailor Moon R:
Suffers badly from the same three enemy limitation and tedious edge hiding, and my first impression was that I don't get why this game is considered one of the better ones on the SNES. It's not a deal-breaker, but damn it's an ugly game, which is a little regrettable considering how amazing that arcade game looks!
I played as the default character, and her punch has a pitifully limited reach, which means every single enemy approach relies heavily on the off-axis thing we were just talking about re: Splatterhouse 3, often prioritizing straight up grabs rather than trying to get hit combos in at all. The thing is, though, her throws are almost useless for crowd control, since their vertical hitbox is awfully shallow, pretty much only colliding with enemies that are lined up very precisely, which really comes down to luck moreso than manual finesse. And in the worst case scenario, which is often, a throw that misses other enemies will just leave you open for them to walk right in there and punish you for it, so you're better off relying on people walking into your combos, and only throwing enemies when you're in a safe position.
Hoooooowever, I wanted to give the game some merit, and tried another character, the brown haired girl, and the experience with her was a massive improvement. She's slower and deals a lot more damage. Instead of throwing enemies she'll suplex them into the ground on either side, which has a much bigger chance of connecting with other enemies, and is much more useful for crowd control.
I think I'm gonna try out the game with her and see how well I like it, but there are three other characters I haven't tried yet, so there might be others that click better with me.

Turtles in Time (SNES):
As expected, it's very much a Konami beat'em up, and therefore not really worthy of its celebrated status in the SNES library. Buuuut, it is still a lot more entertaining than I'd given it credit for in my memories of playing it ages ago.
It's very, very fast paced, which is fun, and enemies keep trying to storm you. The unwieldly throws is a massive drawback, and the game would really have benefited from a FF-style grab. I still haven't been able to figure out what determines which type of throw you'll perform (either a crowd controlling slam back and forth, or a quick fancy toss into the screen), but the typical descriptions I've been able to find definitely don't check out (people usually claim that pulling away from the enemy before attacking will cause the slam attack, but it'd definitely also happen while pushing against them, so I think it's more of a proximity thing?).
Also, some enemies take out half your lifebar in a single hit, and you don't get life back between stages, so making it through the game in a credit sounds like it might be quite a challenge.

Batman Returns (SNES):
This one, however, is a Konami beat'em up that don't feel like one at all, which is also why I was immediately interested in it. It mimicks the Final Fight mechanics much more closely, and although you can't do a Haggar piledriver, Batman is still able to walk around with enemies that he grabbed. They do escape very quickly, but if you're able to walk up and grap an additional enemy, you can knock their heads together for massive damage which is one of the most satisfying things I have tried in a video game of this style.
The different types of enemies are just enough to keep stuff fresh all the time. There's a bit too many regular zakos (which are also a little too resilient for zakos), but the fat jumping clowns, fire breathers, suicide bombers, and sword guys are enough to create some really interesting matchups every once in a while. It suffers from the typical 3-enemy limitation of most SNES brawlers, but doesn't feel quite as stunted by it.
The game occasionally switches to a more spartan x'esque side view with awkward platforming, and a grapple hook mechanic for a sprite that takes up a massive portion of the screen. It doesn't work very well, but can be memorized well enough to not be a major obstacle. There is also Batmobile stage that is awfully bad, but fortunately not too difficult.
The bigger issues for me with the game are the first Catwoman fight and the first Penguin fight. The former gives you way too little space to realistically dodge her attacks - All clears I've been able to find on YouTube abuse the HP draining desperation attack and screen clearing bombs against her, and often take a death as well.
The latter takes place in 2D space and has an attack where the Penguin comes flying in from the side, and you need to duck and keep firing at him to make him fly over you like Beelzebub in Daimakaimura. The thing is though, you have no idea which side he'll fly in from, so you are essentially making a gamble.
Very good game that could have been a lot better if not for a few oversights.

King of Dragons (SNES):
Played a few stages and what a great port it is. Although it's a slight visual downgrade, it really feels exactly like the arcade game, and the early Yoko Shimomura soundtrack really shines.
I've heard it's one of the easier beat'em ups for the SNES, but I don't think I'll ever understand how to get far in it. It has a TON of stages, and some of the bosses are incredibly cheap.

Power Rangers: The Movie:
Incredibly slow dual-plane Spartan X combat, where enemies slowly edge in on you one step at a time. I didn't even make it past the first stage from the few attempts I gave it - I don't think it's that it's super hard, it just relies very heavily on performing very specific patterns, with barely any leeway for mistakes. The bosses especially will probably kill you if you don't know what to do.
Not really on par with what I'd expect from a Natsume action game of this era at all.

[CIT]

Final Fight 2:
Don't think I have the patience to play this through. I can see why people aren't fond of it. It feels like no matter which enemy mix I'm getting, I always end up in the same pattern of getting all three enemies to one of the sides of the screen where I'll repeat knocking them out and have to wait for them to get back and repeat the process. It gets old and repetitive very fast. Would have benefited from smarter enemies and preferably more than just three on the screen.

Not the most amazing game, BUT Cody’s whiff combo infinite from FF1 works with every character (iirc) and certainly makes the game a lot more fun and breezy. One of the few belt-scrollers I’ve actually cleared.

With regard to King of Dragons, I found it pretty manageable with the Elf and his zoning game. Got to the final boss on a credit, but somehow could never take it through the finish line. Will have to revisit at some point. Definitely a great port and a bit underrated on SNES, I feel.

[FinalBaton]

For Turtles In Times throws :

once you're locked into throw position,

if you do Down + attack : you'll do the ''smash enemy on both sides'' which is OP as fuck and should be used often. this is a decent crowd control device too.

if you press attack without pushing the d-pad : it throws enemy into the screen. no crowd control here but the only slight advantage is that it's sure to kill the enemy.

I haven't checked if you need to press down BEFORE or AT SAME TIME as attack.



I played it 2 players over the weekend and I did find it a bit more enjoyable that way. but my view on the game stands.

Oh and yes the King Of Dragons OST is PHENOMENAL !

[guigui]

For Turtles In Times throws :

once you're locked into throw position,

if you do Down + attack : you'll do the ''smash enemy on both sides'' which is OP as fuck and should be used often. this is a decent crowd control device too.

if you press attack without pushing the d-pad : it throws enemy into the screen. no crowd control here but the only slight advantage is that it's sure to kill the enemy.

Found memories : I used to play SNES TMNT Turtles In Time with a pal when kids. We did not understand how the actual throw worked, and there was that boss fight where you're supposed to kill him by throwing baddies at him. So we were here mashing around hoping to get random throws, this was looooong.

[FinalBaton]

^^^^^^^^
same haha. Along with SF2, Turtles In Times was THE game that we rented along with a SNES for birthday parties at my house. for the 2 first years of the console life in NA, we didn't have our own

and just like you, we didn't know how tf to consistently throw enemies at Shredder.

[Mischief Maker]

Batman is still able to walk around with enemies that he grabbed. They do escape very quickly, but if you're able to walk up and grap an additional enemy, you can knock their heads together for massive damage which is one of the most satisfying things I have tried in a video game of this style.

Streets of Rage 4 Floyd.

[Vludi]

Sailor Moon R:
Suffers badly from the same three enemy limitation

Doesn't it allow 4? I remember the first game allowing 4 big enemies with no slowdown which was kinda impressive, though some stages have environmental hazard so they cut it to 3, sometimes it also seems like they can put 4 enemies but they just didn't want to, which is a shame. I thnk the games are decent FF clones but a bit slow paced.

[Sumez]

Oh wow, just looked through some footage, and there are actually a couple of locations where 4 enemies appear. It's very rare though, and it seems like the trade-off is that each of them need to be of the same type. That's interesting. Most of the game you have 3 enemies on there.

[Vludi]

That seems to be the case with R. The first game allow 4 different enemies at once, though the animation seems a little worse.

[Sumez]

Yeah, the biggest bottle neck for the SNES is sprite data. The only way to have such large enemies and still have completely fluid animation is by streaming new graphics to the video RAM every frame. You can't easily store a full animation set for multiple enemies unless the animation is really simplified and reuses most sprites between frames like in that game.

For Turtles In Times throws :

once you're locked into throw position,

if you do Down + attack : you'll do the ''smash enemy on both sides'' which is OP as fuck and should be used often. this is a decent crowd control device too.

if you press attack without pushing the d-pad : it throws enemy into the screen. no crowd control here but the only slight advantage is that it's sure to kill the enemy.

Haha see this is exactly what I'm talking about! Everyone seems to have their own idea of how the throws work, and none seem to be correct.
You can hold down and attack to do the smash attack, but you can also do it by pushing left, right or up. And you can also do it without touching the D-pad at all!
Likewise you can also push the D-pad in a direction and do the throw into the screen.

I'm thinking it has to do with positioning, but I haven't been able to observe anything consistent. It honestly feels more like the game choses the action based on what it thinks would be most convenient to you in your current situation.

Hell, I'm even unclear on what triggers either throw some times. I know you can stun an enemy and move closer to them and attack again to throw, but the exact mechanics behind it aren't obvious. I think basically you need to cancel any combo you might be doing (either by pausing or moving), and be at a slightly shorter distance than what would normally trigger the start of a new combo.

EDIT: Sinister1 touches on it in this speedrun guide video, 29 minutes in. His description is probably what I'd trust the most, even if I still don't find it consistent with my experiences: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHyCBWA6S8M
His claim is that slam throws are neutral, ie. no direction pushed. That's not consistent with my experiences, but maybe it depends on how long you've been holding the button. The screen throw requires you to push towards the enemy, which seems reliable, but I guess the times it didn't work for me I might have been getting too close to them?
He also points out what I assumed, that the pause before activating the throw is necessary to make sure your combo has been canceled.

Another thing that might be causing inconsistencies is that apparently whenever certain graphical elements are on screen (like Krang on stage 1) you can't screen throw, so it defaults to the slam throw instead. And when an enemy is in the lowest part of the screen you can't throw them at all.

[WelshMegalodon]

Hooray, someone talking about Sailor Moon R!

Vludi is correct in pointing out that the game can have four enemies on screen, although they have to be the same type. This can be seen as early as the first stage when a fourth Danburu joins the three that rush you if you destroy the cart to collect the score item it holds. And I'll admit that the edge camping is indeed pretty bad in this game, particularly in Stage 3, but it's usually not too risky to just go over and clobber them. If you don't feel like making the trip you can try hitting them with your projectile attack, but that's rarely the best option.

Sumez, I highly recommend giving the game a try as Minako (the blonde). She has Makoto's reach, but is much more agile, and her aerial Down + Y has insane range. Her B + Y special also drains less health than those of the other four and has quick startup, which makes her pretty powerful and great for beginners.

Ami (the blue-haired girl) has shorter reach but makes up for it with high mobility and good recovery on throws, which definitely gives her an edge over Rei and the mostly useless Usagi.

I still have the Snes9x input files for my Minako and Makoto clears if anyone wants them. Still need to go back and record one with Ami. I'm admittedly pretty rusty these days, though, especially with all the Wonder Boy I've been playing.

Squire's thoughts on Knights of the Round and its 3rd Strike-level parrying has me wanting to check it out, especially since I'm also quite fond of The King of Dragons. (That soundtrack... glorious.) Is Sonic Blast Man 2 really all that good, though? I remember kitten being pretty disappointed with it.

Can confirm that Final Fight Tough is a complete cakewalk on defaults.

Never been able to get into Turtles in Time myself. Simpsons is still my favorite Konami brawler.

[Sumez]

This can be seen as early as the first stage when a fourth Danburu joins the three that rush you

I don't know where you're picking up the names of the enemies in the game, but I wanted to figure out what a Danburu is, and let's just say it's not safe for work D:
I should have known better than playing anime games.