I agree with this. It should be quite easy to emulate the pixel structure of a 720p panel on a 4k TV with a RT4k or Morph and that is exactly how I would play PS3, xbox360 and Switch etctongshadow wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 7:41 pmthe Xbox 360 has superior scaling options compared to the PS3. Unlike the PS3, it offers a multitude of 768p resolutions, and even PC resolutions. Depending on the game it will even output a sharp 1280x720 picture inside a 768p container (black bars), such as Burnout Revenge. This is as good as it can possibly get, outside of getting those unobtanium 1024x720 TVs.
And even better, some Arcade games were actually 1280x768, so you can get 1:1 scaling on 768p displays, but pillar boxes will be visible. Here are some of examples of 1280x768 games on a 1024x768 (Widescreen) Plasma:
https://i.imgur.com/QCam4RB.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/smKcXE8.jpeg
For the most part, the XBox 360 and PS3 should be treated as 720p systems, and playing on higher resolution displays will often result in a sub-par, softer picture.
OSSC Pro
Re: 360/PS3 Resolutions
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Konsolkongen
- Posts: 2318
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- Location: Denmark
Re: OSSC Pro
I don’t want to derail this thread any more. But do a search on YouTube for “Digital Foundry shader compilation”. This should explain the issues with PC gaming.tongshadow wrote: ↑Come on now, that's simply not true if you invest into mid/high-tier hardware. The only time I ever felt I was getting an inferior experience on PC was with my first rig, a Pentium 4 with a lowly NVIDIA FX5200. But as soon as I upgraded to a Core2Duo/8800GTS 320mb, I was never envious of console gaming.Konsolkongen wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 7:12 pmYou don’t really address my main criticism of PC gaming. You will never get a locked 60 in some of these titles regardless of how much money you throw at your system.
And it has been this way ever since... Right now, my i5 12400F/RTX 3080 runs everything I throw at it with ease, and paired with an LG C2 at that.
Also, 60fps in reality is a very low bar for PC gaming, considering 120fps and beyond is starting to become the norm.
Re: OSSC Pro
A lot of reconstruction artifacts are issues with low resolution in the first place, if you lower the resolution you generally just replace them with different artifacts. And when the dynamic resolution goes above 720p, which I would guess is frequent for most PS5 games, you're heavily distorting the picture by removing large amounts of detail from it.tongshadow wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 11:45 pm Guess I wasnt clear enough, sorry about that. I mean outputting 720p from the PS5 into an HD display, instead of using 4k and letting it horribly reconstruct the picture.
I think you've dodged my question of if you've actually tried this nonsense twice because you haven't, and won't like it when you actually do.
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Re: OSSC Pro
Same when he was insisting 240p at 120Hx would be magically betterZellSF wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 12:37 pmA lot of reconstruction artifacts are issues with low resolution in the first place, if you lower the resolution you generally just replace them with different artifacts. And when the dynamic resolution goes above 720p, which I would guess is frequent for most PS5 games, you're heavily distorting the picture by removing large amounts of detail from it.tongshadow wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 11:45 pm Guess I wasnt clear enough, sorry about that. I mean outputting 720p from the PS5 into an HD display, instead of using 4k and letting it horribly reconstruct the picture.
I think you've dodged my question of if you've actually tried this nonsense twice because you haven't, and won't like it when you actually do.
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Re: OSSC Pro
Artifacts from reconstructing lower resolutions is a result of the process itself. That is not to say the original, unaltered lower resolution by itself has artifacts. Therefore, there should be no inherent issues outputting 720p from the PS5.ZellSF wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 12:37 pm A lot of reconstruction artifacts are issues with low resolution in the first place, if you lower the resolution you generally just replace them with different artifacts. And when the dynamic resolution goes above 720p, which I would guess is frequent for most PS5 games, you're heavily distorting the picture by removing large amounts of detail from it.
HD resolutions will always look better on an HD display, this has always been the case.
And why would the dynamic resolution go above 720p if Im outputting 720p from the PS5? I believe dynamic resolution, along the reconstruction, only works if the output resolution is higher than 720p.
I dont have a PS5, so I cant verify what happens in practice, but theorically an pure 720p picture on an HD capable display should look better than upscaling/reconstruction.
Re: OSSC Pro
I have a couple of questions:
1) I have an old arcade board that outputs a non-standard 288P image (H:16.8kHz V:60Hz). In Pure Line Multiplier mode I am able to increase the V. active setting to 288 and view the complete image. In Adaptive and Scaler mode the OSSC will not let me adjust the V. active setting beyond 248. Am I missing something?
2) I've searched this thread and the Wiki but I see no mention of how to get the audio analog inputs working for AV4. When selecting AV2 or AV3 as the audio input AV4 audio is still passed.
Thank you for this awesome project.
1) I have an old arcade board that outputs a non-standard 288P image (H:16.8kHz V:60Hz). In Pure Line Multiplier mode I am able to increase the V. active setting to 288 and view the complete image. In Adaptive and Scaler mode the OSSC will not let me adjust the V. active setting beyond 248. Am I missing something?
2) I've searched this thread and the Wiki but I see no mention of how to get the audio analog inputs working for AV4. When selecting AV2 or AV3 as the audio input AV4 audio is still passed.
Thank you for this awesome project.
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Re: OSSC Pro
In the in "Line multiplier opt." menu there should be "A-LM Adv. timing" where you can set the "Size" option. Similarly, in the "Scaler opt." menu there should be "Adv. timing" containing the "Size" option. In both of those you're being limited to 248? These are where I found those: https://junkerhq.net//xrgb/index.php?ti ... dv._timing and https://junkerhq.net//xrgb/index.php?ti ... dv._timingxterc wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 4:22 pm I have a couple of questions:
1) I have an old arcade board that outputs a non-standard 288P image (H:16.8kHz V:60Hz). In Pure Line Multiplier mode I am able to increase the V. active setting to 288 and view the complete image. In Adaptive and Scaler mode the OSSC will not let me adjust the V. active setting beyond 248. Am I missing something?
So you've used the "Audio opt." menu to change "AV4 audio source" to AV2 or AV3, and you're still hearing AV4's input digital audio? This is where I found this: https://junkerhq.net//xrgb/index.php?ti ... Audio_opt.
For graphical help there's also the Quick start guide, although, by design it's not as in-depth as the wiki: https://videogameperfection.com/support ... sc-pro.pdf
I don't have my DExx-vd_isl setup to compare with even your V.active issue right now.
Re: OSSC Pro
I read the manual and the Wiki before posting. I seem to recall seeing something about the AV4 issue, but I can't remember where.jaffa225man wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 6:47 pmFor graphical help there's also the Quick start guide, although, by design it's not as in-depth as the wiki:
The V. active (which is accessed from the Adv. timing menu) cannot exceed 248 (as seen in the capture attached).
In regards to the audio question. Yes, I selected AV2 and AV3 (to test both inputs) and the sound is still sourced from AV4.
Re: OSSC Pro
Yes, this is a known bug in LM modes with interlaced source. Will look into it eventually but not high priority right now.dead_screem wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 6:27 am There is a slight bug with decoding the test pattern from a Koryuu (actual game output is fine). The very first line is corrupt (just a bunch of random RGB pixels). It would appear to be an error on OSSCP LineX side of things as it only happens in P-LM and A-LM modes, the scaler is fine. Also, the line stays at the very top even if you adjust the image up or down. Doesn't happen with original OSSC.
Photo of my display showing output
https://ibb.co/5xqfk3P
1) There is a bug where vertical limit (v_synclen+v_backporch+v_active < limit) is taken from sampling preset v_total and not the actual mode v_total. Will fix that for next firmware. Can you also post picture of the infoscreen to show linecount of the source? It has been mapped to a 240p preset and not 288p preset where this issue would not exist. This should only happen if total linecount is below 288.xterc wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 4:22 pm I have a couple of questions:
1) I have an old arcade board that outputs a non-standard 288P image (H:16.8kHz V:60Hz). In Pure Line Multiplier mode I am able to increase the V. active setting to 288 and view the complete image. In Adaptive and Scaler mode the OSSC will not let me adjust the V. active setting beyond 248. Am I missing something?
2) I've searched this thread and the Wiki but I see no mention of how to get the audio analog inputs working for AV4. When selecting AV2 or AV3 as the audio input AV4 audio is still passed.
Thank you for this awesome project.
2) Also a small bug that will be fixed for next fw.
Re: OSSC Pro
Thank you for the support Marqs.
Yes, the total line count is 280 (see screenshot).marqs wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 7:38 pm
1) There is a bug where vertical limit (v_synclen+v_backporch+v_active < limit) is taken from sampling preset v_total and not the actual mode v_total. Will fix that for next firmware. Can you also post picture of the infoscreen to show linecount of the source? It has been mapped to a 240p preset and not 288p preset where this issue would not exist. This should only happen if total linecount is below 288.
Thank you!
Re: OSSC Pro
I believe that's Josh.SavagePencil wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 2:47 pm Same when he was insisting 240p at 120Hx would be magically better
As for duplicate frames, that can be used to create the exact same effect on latency as official HDMI fast transfer. Of course, it's only useful for a source that uses a full frame buffer. Only an emulator of a low resolution legacy console or computer could use duplicate frames to reduce total input to glass latency--and there's trade offs.
We apologise for the inconvenience
Re: OSSC Pro
I don't think the PS5 rendering pipeline changes regardless of output resolution. If you set it to 720p (not sure if you can actually, haven't tried.. 1080p is an option of course), it would simply downscale the 4K image to 720p.tongshadow wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 3:42 pmArtifacts from reconstructing lower resolutions is a result of the process itself. That is not to say the original, unaltered lower resolution by itself has artifacts. Therefore, there should be no inherent issues outputting 720p from the PS5.ZellSF wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 12:37 pm A lot of reconstruction artifacts are issues with low resolution in the first place, if you lower the resolution you generally just replace them with different artifacts. And when the dynamic resolution goes above 720p, which I would guess is frequent for most PS5 games, you're heavily distorting the picture by removing large amounts of detail from it.
HD resolutions will always look better on an HD display, this has always been the case.
And why would the dynamic resolution go above 720p if Im outputting 720p from the PS5? I believe dynamic resolution, along the reconstruction, only works if the output resolution is higher than 720p.
I dont have a PS5, so I cant verify what happens in practice, but theorically an pure 720p picture on an HD capable display should look better than upscaling/reconstruction.
Modern reconstruction techniques are obviously far beyond simply upscaling an image in the conventional sense, 720p upscaled with AI to 4K has more detail than a raw 720p image. The techniques are certainly not perfect, but in many ways are superior to native lower resolutions and sometimes even native 4K. It seems we are entering a new paradigm with this stuff, the next gen of games will be using resource intensive techniques to generate a low resolution image of very high fidelity, and then AI upscaling will be used to convert it to a higher resolution. It may not be to everyone's taste but it seems to be the direction regardless.
Re: OSSC Pro
That was me, and I still maintain its unequivocally better for still images and all sub 60 fps games ( which is almost all N64 and a majority of PS1 and Saturn 3D games ) vs 480p + faux scanlines, and still arguably better for strategy and RPG type games. The reason is not "magic" either, its the very real ~3dB brighter image output and real scanlines vs faux scanlines. The technical reason is very simple-- its a 100% vs 50% duty cycle for the cathode rays drawing the imagery. For SVGA CRTs only, of course-- and Marqs has implemented it on the Pro for anyone who wants to check for themselves.orange808 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 8:41 pmI believe that's Josh.SavagePencil wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 2:47 pm Same when he was insisting 240p at 120Hx would be magically better
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Re: OSSC Pro
I think you came to your senses and corrected Tong but that’s water under the bridge.Josh128 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 1:33 amThat was me, and I still maintain its unequivocally better for still images and all sub 60 fps games ( which is almost all N64 and a majority of PS1 and Saturn 3D games ) vs 480p + faux scanlines, and still arguably better for strategy and RPG type games. The reason is not "magic" either, its the very real ~3dB brighter image output and real scanlines vs faux scanlines. The technical reason is very simple-- its a 100% vs 50% duty cycle for the cathode rays drawing the imagery. For SVGA CRTs only, of course-- and Marqs has implemented it on the Pro for anyone who wants to check for themselves.orange808 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 8:41 pmI believe that's Josh.SavagePencil wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 2:47 pm Same when he was insisting 240p at 120Hx would be magically better
I do think it’d be worth pressure testing, even just to put it to rest.
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Paranoid_Andy
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:54 am
Re: OSSC Pro
Hey marqs.
You mentioned on the VGP forum about wanting to know if Killer Instinct arcade had any issues. I've since gotten the game and it ran fine for the entire 30 minutes I was playing at 4x 320 optimal.
No issues at all that I could tell.
Thanks!
https://imgur.com/a/YQimbNU
You mentioned on the VGP forum about wanting to know if Killer Instinct arcade had any issues. I've since gotten the game and it ran fine for the entire 30 minutes I was playing at 4x 320 optimal.
No issues at all that I could tell.
Thanks!
https://imgur.com/a/YQimbNU
Re: OSSC Pro
The original unaltered lower resolution does not have artifacts no, but the second you scale it any way, image reconstruction, integer scaling, bilinear scaling. You're introducing elements that were not in the original picture, artifacts. What you have is a preference for a specific kind of artifacts, which isn't too weird, but:tongshadow wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 3:42 pm Artifacts from reconstructing lower resolutions is a result of the process itself. That is not to say the original, unaltered lower resolution by itself has artifacts.
That was my point. Dynamic resolution can't give much benefit above 720p when you set the console resolution to 720p. So you're losing out on resolution every time that happens, significantly distorting the picture you're supposed to get.tongshadow wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 3:42 pm And why would the dynamic resolution go above 720p if Im outputting 720p from the PS5?
Guess who does have a PS5? Guess who would actually tell you if this was a good idea? The guys you linked to. Digital Foundry. There's so many problems with setting the resolution lower than the game expects (we haven't even talked about the UI...) they're not even entertaining such a ridiculous concept.tongshadow wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 3:42 pmI dont have a PS5, so I cant verify what happens in practice, but theorically an pure 720p picture on an HD capable display should look better than upscaling/reconstruction.
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Re: OSSC Pro
If that's how the PS5 deals with non-4K outputs, then that's pretty terrible. Modern console gaming is far worse than I thought.Kez wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 10:54 pmI don't think the PS5 rendering pipeline changes regardless of output resolution. If you set it to 720p (not sure if you can actually, haven't tried.. 1080p is an option of course), it would simply downscale the 4K image to 720p.tongshadow wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 3:42 pmArtifacts from reconstructing lower resolutions is a result of the process itself. That is not to say the original, unaltered lower resolution by itself has artifacts. Therefore, there should be no inherent issues outputting 720p from the PS5.ZellSF wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 12:37 pm A lot of reconstruction artifacts are issues with low resolution in the first place, if you lower the resolution you generally just replace them with different artifacts. And when the dynamic resolution goes above 720p, which I would guess is frequent for most PS5 games, you're heavily distorting the picture by removing large amounts of detail from it.
HD resolutions will always look better on an HD display, this has always been the case.
And why would the dynamic resolution go above 720p if Im outputting 720p from the PS5? I believe dynamic resolution, along the reconstruction, only works if the output resolution is higher than 720p.
I dont have a PS5, so I cant verify what happens in practice, but theorically an pure 720p picture on an HD capable display should look better than upscaling/reconstruction.
Re: OSSC Pro
It’s how all consoles have worked since like the Xbox 360 (ps3 being the exception). The render resolution is independent of the output resolution. It’s far better for compatibility and often also image quality.
Games often let you prioritize resolution versus frame rate with a “quality” or “performance” mode.
Games often let you prioritize resolution versus frame rate with a “quality” or “performance” mode.
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Re: OSSC Pro
Check the previous page, we already discussed that the Xbox 360 does it right compared to the PS3.
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Re: OSSC Pro
Is it worth even pointing out his caveat “(ps3 being the exception)”, or can we ignore you and get back to talking about the OSSC Pro?tongshadow wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 9:52 pm Check the previous page, we already discussed that the Xbox 360 does it right compared to the PS3.
Re: OSSC Pro
Yes please let’s talk about the pro now.
Marqs, congratulations on such an amazing product, I absolutely love mine and have enjoyed experimenting and putting it through its paces.
I am eagerly awaiting the analogue out module so that I can easily start throwing things at my bvm.
Niche usercase request:
I am fortunate to own some analogue systems (nt & sg) which I link through the analogue DAC to my CRT.
I see that the tink4k and morph have both worked out how to fool the DAC into thinking there is an analogue console attached and an analogue DAC output mode is possible. This would give the ability to easily route any desired system to the crt.
I appreciate that this might not be high priority right now but is this a possible future feature that gives alternate options for crt use through a confirmed high quality DAC?
Marqs, congratulations on such an amazing product, I absolutely love mine and have enjoyed experimenting and putting it through its paces.
I am eagerly awaiting the analogue out module so that I can easily start throwing things at my bvm.
Niche usercase request:
I am fortunate to own some analogue systems (nt & sg) which I link through the analogue DAC to my CRT.
I see that the tink4k and morph have both worked out how to fool the DAC into thinking there is an analogue console attached and an analogue DAC output mode is possible. This would give the ability to easily route any desired system to the crt.
I appreciate that this might not be high priority right now but is this a possible future feature that gives alternate options for crt use through a confirmed high quality DAC?
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kitty666cats
- Posts: 1275
- Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:03 am
- Location: Massachusetts, USA
Re: OSSC Pro
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/ ... A/htmlviewLDigital wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2023 10:20 am Yes please let’s talk about the pro now.
Marqs, congratulations on such an amazing product, I absolutely love mine and have enjoyed experimenting and putting it through its paces.
I am eagerly awaiting the analogue out module so that I can easily start throwing things at my bvm.
Niche usercase request:
I am fortunate to own some analogue systems (nt & sg) which I link through the analogue DAC to my CRT.
I see that the tink4k and morph have both worked out how to fool the DAC into thinking there is an analogue console attached and an analogue DAC output mode is possible. This would give the ability to easily route any desired system to the crt.
I appreciate that this might not be high priority right now but is this a possible future feature that gives alternate options for crt use through a confirmed high quality DAC?
^
A reference point for other folks: a bunch on here for a fraction of the price that have equal or superior color accuracy. Those IcyBox ones at the bottom should be good - but if you can’t configure the HDMI to pass a RGBS signal (like the MiSTer can) and only RGBHV, you’d need a sync combiner on the HDMI to VGA’s output.
Re: OSSC Pro
If there is information publicly available on what kind of metadata etc. it expects or if someone is willing to reverse-engineer it, then certainly it should be possible to add support for it.LDigital wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2023 10:20 amI see that the tink4k and morph have both worked out how to fool the DAC into thinking there is an analogue console attached and an analogue DAC output mode is possible. This would give the ability to easily route any desired system to the crt.
I appreciate that this might not be high priority right now but is this a possible future feature that gives alternate options for crt use through a confirmed high quality DAC?
Re: OSSC Pro
It doesn't require any special metadata, it just looks for the DAC's EDID. You just need to send that EDID to the Super Nt/Mega Sg and they'll switch to DAC mode. Note that the DAC has a physical switch for NTSC or PAL and this changes the EDID. I'm not sure where the rumours about pixel encryption or special packets came from because neither exists.
Re: OSSC Pro
Ideal solution then is to act as a middle man and tell the analogue console that it is a dac so it can get the best output from that and then tell the dac that it is an analogue console allowing you to output any system through the DAC as high quality 240p
Re: OSSC Pro
There's not much point, the Analogue DAC has many issues with its analog output that have not been fixed years after release. Messed up colours with some output types, reversed audio, invalid sync signal, etc.
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bobrocks95
- Posts: 3475
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- Location: Kentucky
Re: OSSC Pro
That would be from me being as dense as a sack of bricks and misinterpreting a joke, that's all on me.Guspaz wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2023 6:45 pm It doesn't require any special metadata, it just looks for the DAC's EDID. You just need to send that EDID to the Super Nt/Mega Sg and they'll switch to DAC mode. Note that the DAC has a physical switch for NTSC or PAL and this changes the EDID. I'm not sure where the rumours about pixel encryption or special packets came from because neither exists.
PS1 Disc-Based Game ID BIOS patch for MemCard Pro and SD2PSX automatic VMC switching.
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Re: OSSC Pro
With the Tink4K being hard to order today I got to thinking that for what I need I'd be totally fine with an OSSC Pro instead, if I could buy one.
I remember reading that the next batch will be available around April next year. Is that correct? Though by that point there may have been one or two more rounds of Tink orders... I care less about price difference and more about having access to useful tools sooner than later, so I'll just end up getting whatever becomes available first.
I remember reading that the next batch will be available around April next year. Is that correct? Though by that point there may have been one or two more rounds of Tink orders... I care less about price difference and more about having access to useful tools sooner than later, so I'll just end up getting whatever becomes available first.
Re: OSSC Pro
I'm hoping it won't be quite that long, but I don't think we've 100% seen the back of the component shortage just yet... I'm still getting messages from the supplier saying "oh x component is a long lead time, or only y amount available on the open market".
OSSC Forums - http://www.videogameperfection.com/forums
Please check the Wiki before posting about Morph, OSSC, XRGB Mini or XRGB3 - http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/Main_Page
Please check the Wiki before posting about Morph, OSSC, XRGB Mini or XRGB3 - http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/Main_Page
Re: OSSC Pro
Has anyone else had a small issue with Mega Drive at 60hz? In 1080p output/scaler mode, I get fairly heavy shimmering at auto/default settings, and in Interger (overscan) mode with the correct timings etc I get a perfect image but with misaligned scanlines. 120hz output seems to upset things further. All my other 240p sources have worked perfectly. It's a Japanese Mega Drive running at 59.92hz.
I am the geezer from the Retro Muel Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIg73A ... u89QcCBD3A
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIg73A ... u89QcCBD3A