OSSC Pro

[strayan]

the Xbox 360 has superior scaling options compared to the PS3. Unlike the PS3, it offers a multitude of 768p resolutions, and even PC resolutions. Depending on the game it will even output a sharp 1280x720 picture inside a 768p container (black bars), such as Burnout Revenge. This is as good as it can possibly get, outside of getting those unobtanium 1024x720 TVs.
And even better, some Arcade games were actually 1280x768, so you can get 1:1 scaling on 768p displays, but pillar boxes will be visible. Here are some of examples of 1280x768 games on a 1024x768 (Widescreen) Plasma:
https://i.imgur.com/QCam4RB.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/smKcXE8.jpeg

For the most part, the XBox 360 and PS3 should be treated as 720p systems, and playing on higher resolution displays will often result in a sub-par, softer picture.

I agree with this. It should be quite easy to emulate the pixel structure of a 720p panel on a 4k TV with a RT4k or Morph and that is exactly how I would play PS3, xbox360 and Switch etc

[Konsolkongen]

You don’t really address my main criticism of PC gaming. You will never get a locked 60 in some of these titles regardless of how much money you throw at your system.

Come on now, that's simply not true if you invest into mid/high-tier hardware. The only time I ever felt I was getting an inferior experience on PC was with my first rig, a Pentium 4 with a lowly NVIDIA FX5200. But as soon as I upgraded to a Core2Duo/8800GTS 320mb, I was never envious of console gaming.

And it has been this way ever since... Right now, my i5 12400F/RTX 3080 runs everything I throw at it with ease, and paired with an LG C2 at that.
Also, 60fps in reality is a very low bar for PC gaming, considering 120fps and beyond is starting to become the norm.

I don’t want to derail this thread any more. But do a search on YouTube for “Digital Foundry shader compilation”. This should explain the issues with PC gaming.

[ZellSF]

Guess I wasnt clear enough, sorry about that. I mean outputting 720p from the PS5 into an HD display, instead of using 4k and letting it horribly reconstruct the picture.

A lot of reconstruction artifacts are issues with low resolution in the first place, if you lower the resolution you generally just replace them with different artifacts. And when the dynamic resolution goes above 720p, which I would guess is frequent for most PS5 games, you're heavily distorting the picture by removing large amounts of detail from it.

I think you've dodged my question of if you've actually tried this nonsense twice because you haven't, and won't like it when you actually do.

[SavagePencil]

Guess I wasnt clear enough, sorry about that. I mean outputting 720p from the PS5 into an HD display, instead of using 4k and letting it horribly reconstruct the picture.

A lot of reconstruction artifacts are issues with low resolution in the first place, if you lower the resolution you generally just replace them with different artifacts. And when the dynamic resolution goes above 720p, which I would guess is frequent for most PS5 games, you're heavily distorting the picture by removing large amounts of detail from it.

I think you've dodged my question of if you've actually tried this nonsense twice because you haven't, and won't like it when you actually do.

Same when he was insisting 240p at 120Hx would be magically better

[tongshadow]

A lot of reconstruction artifacts are issues with low resolution in the first place, if you lower the resolution you generally just replace them with different artifacts. And when the dynamic resolution goes above 720p, which I would guess is frequent for most PS5 games, you're heavily distorting the picture by removing large amounts of detail from it.

Artifacts from reconstructing lower resolutions is a result of the process itself. That is not to say the original, unaltered lower resolution by itself has artifacts. Therefore, there should be no inherent issues outputting 720p from the PS5.
HD resolutions will always look better on an HD display, this has always been the case.
And why would the dynamic resolution go above 720p if Im outputting 720p from the PS5? I believe dynamic resolution, along the reconstruction, only works if the output resolution is higher than 720p.

I dont have a PS5, so I cant verify what happens in practice, but theorically an pure 720p picture on an HD capable display should look better than upscaling/reconstruction.

[xterc]

I have a couple of questions:

1) I have an old arcade board that outputs a non-standard 288P image (H:16.8kHz V:60Hz). In Pure Line Multiplier mode I am able to increase the V. active setting to 288 and view the complete image. In Adaptive and Scaler mode the OSSC will not let me adjust the V. active setting beyond 248. Am I missing something?

2) I've searched this thread and the Wiki but I see no mention of how to get the audio analog inputs working for AV4. When selecting AV2 or AV3 as the audio input AV4 audio is still passed.

Thank you for this awesome project.

[jaffa225man]

I have a couple of questions:

1) I have an old arcade board that outputs a non-standard 288P image (H:16.8kHz V:60Hz). In Pure Line Multiplier mode I am able to increase the V. active setting to 288 and view the complete image. In Adaptive and Scaler mode the OSSC will not let me adjust the V. active setting beyond 248. Am I missing something?

In the in "Line multiplier opt." menu there should be "A-LM Adv. timing" where you can set the "Size" option. Similarly, in the "Scaler opt." menu there should be "Adv. timing" containing the "Size" option. In both of those you're being limited to 248? These are where I found those: https://junkerhq.net//xrgb/index.php?ti ... dv._timing and https://junkerhq.net//xrgb/index.php?ti ... dv._timing

2) I've searched this thread and the Wiki but I see no mention of how to get the audio analog inputs working for AV4. When selecting AV2 or AV3 as the audio input AV4 audio is still passed.

So you've used the "Audio opt." menu to change "AV4 audio source" to AV2 or AV3, and you're still hearing AV4's input digital audio? This is where I found this: https://junkerhq.net//xrgb/index.php?ti ... Audio_opt.

For graphical help there's also the Quick start guide, although, by design it's not as in-depth as the wiki: https://videogameperfection.com/support ... sc-pro.pdf

I don't have my DExx-vd_isl setup to compare with even your V.active issue right now.

[xterc]

For graphical help there's also the Quick start guide, although, by design it's not as in-depth as the wiki:

I read the manual and the Wiki before posting. I seem to recall seeing something about the AV4 issue, but I can't remember where.

The V. active (which is accessed from the Adv. timing menu) cannot exceed 248 (as seen in the capture attached).


In regards to the audio question. Yes, I selected AV2 and AV3 (to test both inputs) and the sound is still sourced from AV4.

[marqs]

There is a slight bug with decoding the test pattern from a Koryuu (actual game output is fine). The very first line is corrupt (just a bunch of random RGB pixels). It would appear to be an error on OSSCP LineX side of things as it only happens in P-LM and A-LM modes, the scaler is fine. Also, the line stays at the very top even if you adjust the image up or down. Doesn't happen with original OSSC.
Photo of my display showing output
https://ibb.co/5xqfk3P

Yes, this is a known bug in LM modes with interlaced source. Will look into it eventually but not high priority right now.

I have a couple of questions:

1) I have an old arcade board that outputs a non-standard 288P image (H:16.8kHz V:60Hz). In Pure Line Multiplier mode I am able to increase the V. active setting to 288 and view the complete image. In Adaptive and Scaler mode the OSSC will not let me adjust the V. active setting beyond 248. Am I missing something?

2) I've searched this thread and the Wiki but I see no mention of how to get the audio analog inputs working for AV4. When selecting AV2 or AV3 as the audio input AV4 audio is still passed.

Thank you for this awesome project.

1) There is a bug where vertical limit (v_synclen+v_backporch+v_active < limit) is taken from sampling preset v_total and not the actual mode v_total. Will fix that for next firmware. Can you also post picture of the infoscreen to show linecount of the source? It has been mapped to a 240p preset and not 288p preset where this issue would not exist. This should only happen if total linecount is below 288.

2) Also a small bug that will be fixed for next fw.

[xterc]

Thank you for the support Marqs.

1) There is a bug where vertical limit (v_synclen+v_backporch+v_active < limit) is taken from sampling preset v_total and not the actual mode v_total. Will fix that for next firmware. Can you also post picture of the infoscreen to show linecount of the source? It has been mapped to a 240p preset and not 288p preset where this issue would not exist. This should only happen if total linecount is below 288.

Yes, the total line count is 280 (see screenshot).

2) Also a small bug that will be fixed for next fw.

Thank you!

[orange808]

Same when he was insisting 240p at 120Hx would be magically better

I believe that's Josh.

As for duplicate frames, that can be used to create the exact same effect on latency as official HDMI fast transfer. Of course, it's only useful for a source that uses a full frame buffer. Only an emulator of a low resolution legacy console or computer could use duplicate frames to reduce total input to glass latency--and there's trade offs.

[Kez]

A lot of reconstruction artifacts are issues with low resolution in the first place, if you lower the resolution you generally just replace them with different artifacts. And when the dynamic resolution goes above 720p, which I would guess is frequent for most PS5 games, you're heavily distorting the picture by removing large amounts of detail from it.

Artifacts from reconstructing lower resolutions is a result of the process itself. That is not to say the original, unaltered lower resolution by itself has artifacts. Therefore, there should be no inherent issues outputting 720p from the PS5.
HD resolutions will always look better on an HD display, this has always been the case.
And why would the dynamic resolution go above 720p if Im outputting 720p from the PS5? I believe dynamic resolution, along the reconstruction, only works if the output resolution is higher than 720p.

I dont have a PS5, so I cant verify what happens in practice, but theorically an pure 720p picture on an HD capable display should look better than upscaling/reconstruction.

I don't think the PS5 rendering pipeline changes regardless of output resolution. If you set it to 720p (not sure if you can actually, haven't tried.. 1080p is an option of course), it would simply downscale the 4K image to 720p.

Modern reconstruction techniques are obviously far beyond simply upscaling an image in the conventional sense, 720p upscaled with AI to 4K has more detail than a raw 720p image. The techniques are certainly not perfect, but in many ways are superior to native lower resolutions and sometimes even native 4K. It seems we are entering a new paradigm with this stuff, the next gen of games will be using resource intensive techniques to generate a low resolution image of very high fidelity, and then AI upscaling will be used to convert it to a higher resolution. It may not be to everyone's taste but it seems to be the direction regardless.

[Josh128]

Same when he was insisting 240p at 120Hx would be magically better

I believe that's Josh.

That was me, and I still maintain its unequivocally better for still images and all sub 60 fps games ( which is almost all N64 and a majority of PS1 and Saturn 3D games ) vs 480p + faux scanlines, and still arguably better for strategy and RPG type games. The reason is not "magic" either, its the very real ~3dB brighter image output and real scanlines vs faux scanlines. The technical reason is very simple-- its a 100% vs 50% duty cycle for the cathode rays drawing the imagery. For SVGA CRTs only, of course-- and Marqs has implemented it on the Pro for anyone who wants to check for themselves.

[SavagePencil]

Same when he was insisting 240p at 120Hx would be magically better

I believe that's Josh.

That was me, and I still maintain its unequivocally better for still images and all sub 60 fps games ( which is almost all N64 and a majority of PS1 and Saturn 3D games ) vs 480p + faux scanlines, and still arguably better for strategy and RPG type games. The reason is not "magic" either, its the very real ~3dB brighter image output and real scanlines vs faux scanlines. The technical reason is very simple-- its a 100% vs 50% duty cycle for the cathode rays drawing the imagery. For SVGA CRTs only, of course-- and Marqs has implemented it on the Pro for anyone who wants to check for themselves.

I think you came to your senses and corrected Tong but that’s water under the bridge.

I do think it’d be worth pressure testing, even just to put it to rest.

[Paranoid_Andy]

Hey marqs.

You mentioned on the VGP forum about wanting to know if Killer Instinct arcade had any issues. I've since gotten the game and it ran fine for the entire 30 minutes I was playing at 4x 320 optimal.

No issues at all that I could tell.

Thanks!

https://imgur.com/a/YQimbNU

[ZellSF]

Artifacts from reconstructing lower resolutions is a result of the process itself. That is not to say the original, unaltered lower resolution by itself has artifacts.

The original unaltered lower resolution does not have artifacts no, but the second you scale it any way, image reconstruction, integer scaling, bilinear scaling. You're introducing elements that were not in the original picture, artifacts. What you have is a preference for a specific kind of artifacts, which isn't too weird, but:

And why would the dynamic resolution go above 720p if Im outputting 720p from the PS5?

That was my point. Dynamic resolution can't give much benefit above 720p when you set the console resolution to 720p. So you're losing out on resolution every time that happens, significantly distorting the picture you're supposed to get.

I dont have a PS5, so I cant verify what happens in practice, but theorically an pure 720p picture on an HD capable display should look better than upscaling/reconstruction.

Guess who does have a PS5? Guess who would actually tell you if this was a good idea? The guys you linked to. Digital Foundry. There's so many problems with setting the resolution lower than the game expects (we haven't even talked about the UI...) they're not even entertaining such a ridiculous concept.

[tongshadow]

A lot of reconstruction artifacts are issues with low resolution in the first place, if you lower the resolution you generally just replace them with different artifacts. And when the dynamic resolution goes above 720p, which I would guess is frequent for most PS5 games, you're heavily distorting the picture by removing large amounts of detail from it.

Artifacts from reconstructing lower resolutions is a result of the process itself. That is not to say the original, unaltered lower resolution by itself has artifacts. Therefore, there should be no inherent issues outputting 720p from the PS5.
HD resolutions will always look better on an HD display, this has always been the case.
And why would the dynamic resolution go above 720p if Im outputting 720p from the PS5? I believe dynamic resolution, along the reconstruction, only works if the output resolution is higher than 720p.

I dont have a PS5, so I cant verify what happens in practice, but theorically an pure 720p picture on an HD capable display should look better than upscaling/reconstruction.

I don't think the PS5 rendering pipeline changes regardless of output resolution. If you set it to 720p (not sure if you can actually, haven't tried.. 1080p is an option of course), it would simply downscale the 4K image to 720p.

If that's how the PS5 deals with non-4K outputs, then that's pretty terrible. Modern console gaming is far worse than I thought.

[Guspaz]

It’s how all consoles have worked since like the Xbox 360 (ps3 being the exception). The render resolution is independent of the output resolution. It’s far better for compatibility and often also image quality.

Games often let you prioritize resolution versus frame rate with a “quality” or “performance” mode.

[tongshadow]

Check the previous page, we already discussed that the Xbox 360 does it right compared to the PS3.

[SavagePencil]

Check the previous page, we already discussed that the Xbox 360 does it right compared to the PS3.

Is it worth even pointing out his caveat “(ps3 being the exception)”, or can we ignore you and get back to talking about the OSSC Pro?

[LDigital]

Yes please let’s talk about the pro now.

Marqs, congratulations on such an amazing product, I absolutely love mine and have enjoyed experimenting and putting it through its paces.

I am eagerly awaiting the analogue out module so that I can easily start throwing things at my bvm.

Niche usercase request:
I am fortunate to own some analogue systems (nt & sg) which I link through the analogue DAC to my CRT.

I see that the tink4k and morph have both worked out how to fool the DAC into thinking there is an analogue console attached and an analogue DAC output mode is possible. This would give the ability to easily route any desired system to the crt.
I appreciate that this might not be high priority right now but is this a possible future feature that gives alternate options for crt use through a confirmed high quality DAC?

[kitty666cats]

Yes please let’s talk about the pro now.

Marqs, congratulations on such an amazing product, I absolutely love mine and have enjoyed experimenting and putting it through its paces.

I am eagerly awaiting the analogue out module so that I can easily start throwing things at my bvm.

Niche usercase request:
I am fortunate to own some analogue systems (nt & sg) which I link through the analogue DAC to my CRT.

I see that the tink4k and morph have both worked out how to fool the DAC into thinking there is an analogue console attached and an analogue DAC output mode is possible. This would give the ability to easily route any desired system to the crt.
I appreciate that this might not be high priority right now but is this a possible future feature that gives alternate options for crt use through a confirmed high quality DAC?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/ ... A/htmlview

^
A reference point for other folks: a bunch on here for a fraction of the price that have equal or superior color accuracy. Those IcyBox ones at the bottom should be good - but if you can’t configure the HDMI to pass a RGBS signal (like the MiSTer can) and only RGBHV, you’d need a sync combiner on the HDMI to VGA’s output.

[marqs]

I see that the tink4k and morph have both worked out how to fool the DAC into thinking there is an analogue console attached and an analogue DAC output mode is possible. This would give the ability to easily route any desired system to the crt.
I appreciate that this might not be high priority right now but is this a possible future feature that gives alternate options for crt use through a confirmed high quality DAC?

If there is information publicly available on what kind of metadata etc. it expects or if someone is willing to reverse-engineer it, then certainly it should be possible to add support for it.

[Guspaz]

It doesn't require any special metadata, it just looks for the DAC's EDID. You just need to send that EDID to the Super Nt/Mega Sg and they'll switch to DAC mode. Note that the DAC has a physical switch for NTSC or PAL and this changes the EDID. I'm not sure where the rumours about pixel encryption or special packets came from because neither exists.

[LDigital]

Ideal solution then is to act as a middle man and tell the analogue console that it is a dac so it can get the best output from that and then tell the dac that it is an analogue console allowing you to output any system through the DAC as high quality 240p

[Guspaz]

There's not much point, the Analogue DAC has many issues with its analog output that have not been fixed years after release. Messed up colours with some output types, reversed audio, invalid sync signal, etc.

[bobrocks95]

It doesn't require any special metadata, it just looks for the DAC's EDID. You just need to send that EDID to the Super Nt/Mega Sg and they'll switch to DAC mode. Note that the DAC has a physical switch for NTSC or PAL and this changes the EDID. I'm not sure where the rumours about pixel encryption or special packets came from because neither exists.

That would be from me being as dense as a sack of bricks and misinterpreting a joke, that's all on me.

[fernan1234]

With the Tink4K being hard to order today I got to thinking that for what I need I'd be totally fine with an OSSC Pro instead, if I could buy one.

I remember reading that the next batch will be available around April next year. Is that correct? Though by that point there may have been one or two more rounds of Tink orders... I care less about price difference and more about having access to useful tools sooner than later, so I'll just end up getting whatever becomes available first.

[BuckoA51]

I'm hoping it won't be quite that long, but I don't think we've 100% seen the back of the component shortage just yet... I'm still getting messages from the supplier saying "oh x component is a long lead time, or only y amount available on the open market".

[Das Muel]

Has anyone else had a small issue with Mega Drive at 60hz? In 1080p output/scaler mode, I get fairly heavy shimmering at auto/default settings, and in Interger (overscan) mode with the correct timings etc I get a perfect image but with misaligned scanlines. 120hz output seems to upset things further. All my other 240p sources have worked perfectly. It's a Japanese Mega Drive running at 59.92hz.