New Neo-Geo shmup -- Last Hope [also for DC]

Reluctant Hero · Post by **Reluctant Hero** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:58 pm

Super Laydock wrote:
Strider77 wrote:I cancelled my preorder for the LE..... I'd rather spend 60.00 on something else. I bought the reg version used for around 30.00 shipped.
I hope more people will do this, so I can snatch a LE of it after all.

Play-Asia has already raised the price of the LE. I was going to alter my payment from credit card to paypal and I noticed that if I did so, I would be charged $69.99

for the LE instead of my original pre-order price of $59.99. I emailed them and they confirmed this to be true. Plus, if I altered my order I'd loose my place in the "ordering que". Needless to say, my original pre-order will remain as is.

Frederik · Post by **Frederik** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:20 pm

szycag wrote: Tactical in this case however seems to be, no twitch action, your ship is pretty slow so you better memorize your surroundings 100%. To me this is less tactical and more just trial and error.

I can´t think of the textbook definition of "tactical" right now (besides being a more specific term of "strategy"), but I think of tactics as different kinds of choices you have to make according to a certain situation. If a game needs that much of memorization, however, it´s indeed just rote learning.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 8:07 pm

Absolutely rediculous that the LE is 69.99...

Just b/c a game is low in printed copies means nothing concerning the quality. Things like radient silvergun are rare b/c the folks who have it don't want to let it go. Or like border down are low in print run and are pretty damn good.

It takes alot more than throwing a CD in a box to get my money these days. I made sure to get my copy of TF5 special pack b/c I actually wanted that CD to hear, not just have sit in a box.

I have border down and under defeat and did not want the limited sets b/c I didn't care for the music that much. Now if I could go back in time sure I'd pick em up b/c I could sell em for a fortune (border down anyway), but I don't buy to resell I buy for me.

Although in Last Hopes case the CD is probably the better half.

Specineff · Post by **Specineff** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 8:14 pm

qatmix wrote: However Even though I've been a shump player since most of you guys were in nappies Im not in anyway awesome at them (although I was at terra cresta in the arcade). I have friends who are testing the game and one is a hardcore shump fan (and very good at shumps) however as we all know its good to have more opinions. I am keen to let one or two guys on here playtest it. However The fact is how can they vouch that they are not goign to spread the hardwork?

Easy: Don't release the whole game when beta testing. If you have your team of testers, send them only one level at a time. Works for the gaming magazines sending demos (and label it "DEMO VERSION"). It's not like someone is going to buy 10 CDs with one level each. Also, make it barebones: no scoring, preliminary ship design, no sound or music. I can't believe no one has thought of this before.

ROBOTRON · Post by **ROBOTRON** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:24 pm

Specineff wrote:Easy: Don't release the whole game when beta testing. If you have your team of testers, send them only one level at a time. Works for the gaming magazines sending demos (and label it "DEMO VERSION"). It's not like someone is going to buy 10 CDs with one level each. Also, make it barebones: no scoring, preliminary ship design, no sound or music. I can't believe no one has thought of this before.

Sounds easy, but that wouldn't be a true beta test would it? In order for someone to evaluate a game properly, they would have to be able to test all the elements first...otherwise you'd end up testing one stage for them never knowing if the other stages sucked or not. I don't know...in order for me to test something I need to be able to evaluate the scoring, ship design, hit box detection, overall eye appeal, sound, etc. How can you evaluate something properly missing those factors?

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:34 pm

Works for the top shmup producers...

Necronom · Post by **Necronom** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:43 pm

@qatmix
Where exactly do you see a download link in the post about trigger heart?

genetik · Post by **genetik** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:44 pm

ROBOTRON wrote:
Specineff wrote:Easy: Don't release the whole game when beta testing. If you have your team of testers, send them only one level at a time. Works for the gaming magazines sending demos (and label it "DEMO VERSION"). It's not like someone is going to buy 10 CDs with one level each. Also, make it barebones: no scoring, preliminary ship design, no sound or music. I can't believe no one has thought of this before.
Sounds easy, but that wouldn't be a true beta test would it? In order for someone to evaluate a game properly, they would have to be able to test all the elements first...otherwise you'd end up testing one stage for them never knowing if the other stages sucked or not. I don't know...in order for me to test something I need to be able to evaluate the scoring, ship design, hit box detection, overall eye appeal, sound, etc. How can you evaluate something properly missing those factors?

There's a difference between "beta testing" and "play testing".

A beta test suggest that the person testing will need to point out problems with the game (score not adding up, missing collision, incorrect hit detection...). Play testing is very different. You're not out to seek bug but rather point out what was fun with the level, what was too tedious and so on.

Play testing doesn't require that every level is available. Just by giving out feedback on one or two level, the game designer can take the decision to alter some elements of the game that didn't do too well in the test.

ROBOTRON · Post by **ROBOTRON** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:45 pm

shoe-sama wrote:Works for the top shmup producers...

I see. I obviously don't have knowledge of how these things are done. I'm going by what I've heard about how Fighting games are produced...

* created and tested by a bunch of guys in secretive cubicles
* then beta test units are sent to select arcades for final evaluation prior to release

I'm sure there are more steps but this...I thought were the basics. I guess its done differently for the console platform and this type of game.

iatneH · Post by **iatneH** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:40 pm

Although in both scenarios, one of the feedbacks would surely be "OMG I can't distinguish the bullets/shrapnel/backgrounds/foreground". And if NG.DEV TEAM listened and did something about it, we wouldn't have all the end users complaining about it now, post-production.

The game could be a Hell of a lot more playable.

Specineff · Post by **Specineff** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:12 pm

Yeah, I meant play testing, not beta.

If the Neo Geo and DC version are the same... does that mean that BIG indeed gets the "I TOLD YOU SO" award of 2007?

The Coop · Post by **The Coop** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:17 pm

Specineff wrote:If the Neo Geo and DC version are the same... does that mean that BIG indeed gets the "I TOLD YOU SO" award of 2007?

The Coop wrote:Not as far as I'm concerned.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:43 pm

"I TOLD YOU SO" award of 2007?

he does

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:10 am

Strider77 wrote:
"I TOLD YOU SO" award of 2007?
he does

How so? He didn't say anything much at all. Besides, the game while flawed doesn't seem to be a complete tainwreck and there are people who actually enjoy it - especially the soundtrack which you will not be getting now.

And please put up a new avatar, for Christ's sake! We've had to look at you in your bloody underwear for several months now. Otherwise you win the "Most Ugly Avatar" award of 2006 AND 2007.

icycalm · Post by **icycalm** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:17 am

I like Coop's avatar. It makes me want to play some old horizontal shooter.

So what's next for Last Hope's developers then?

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:21 am

icycalm wrote:So what's next for Last Hope's developers then?

Last Hope 1.01 with pink enemy shots?

icycalm · Post by **icycalm** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:22 am

Last Hope ~Pink Label~

dczx · Post by **dczx** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:30 am

It would be so uber-elite if someone put out an Atari Jaguar R-Type. It almost happened with Protector, but unfortunately, no.

I hope ng dev team keeps making great games, especially shmups. Maybe something native to Dreamcast?

The Coop · Post by **The Coop** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:50 am

Am I the only one not having a problem seeing the bullets and blocking them with the orb? And the only spot I've come across where I don't know what killed me (or eventually learn what it was once I paid attention) was on stage four, dodging between the moving earth spikes about mid-way through the level (towards the apparent Shadow of the Beast reference).

I mean, I know this game isn't for everyone, as everyone has their own personal likes and dislikes in the genre. But I honestly don't see why people are having so much trouble with Last Hope... and I'm using a Dreamcast pad and the normal composite hookups.

dczx · Post by **dczx** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 6:08 am

sorry this is a bit unrelated, but that Atari Jaguar R-type was called, "Native" not "Protector". Anyway, yah, this game is hard as ever, but I can tell the difference. The bullets are these huge orangish red ball thingies. Explosions tend to be much smaller sprites.

Specineff · Post by **Specineff** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:03 am

I just played this on DC using both modes...

And I hereby present BIG with the "I TOLD YOU SO" Award of 2007.

I won't be bashing the game. I'll just mention that I'm glad I got to try it beforehand. There's a lesson to be learned here, and I sure did learn mine.

Thanks, and see you next game.

EDIT: Gameplay>>>>>>> Soundtrack.

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:13 am

Specineff wrote:Gameplay>>>>>>> Soundtrack.

This would indicate that you prefer gameplay over soundtrack. It's LARGER > smaller

qatmix · Post by **qatmix** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:39 pm

ROBOTRON wrote:
shoe-sama wrote:Works for the top shmup producers...
I see. I obviously don't have knowledge of how these things are done. I'm going by what I've heard about how Fighting games are produced...

* created and tested by a bunch of guys in secretive cubicles
* then beta test units are sent to select arcades for final evaluation prior to release

I'm sure there are more steps but this...I thought were the basics. I guess its done differently for the console platform and this type of game.

Nope, you are right. That is how all games are playested and beta tested. The seperated levels woulnt work for hte reasons you noted. The idea of sending single levels is ok if you want feedback on a specific issue.

And it wasnt a download link in the elixier thread, it was the NFO info on the hacked version with soemone boastign they had downloaded it.

Anyway back to the thread. I played the game some more and I really hope they revise it and consider a new game for dc.

yojo! · Post by **yojo!** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:57 pm

The Coop wrote:Am I the only one not having a problem seeing the bullets and blocking them with the orb?

Same here. No problem whatsoever and I using the same setup (composite video + DC pad). This game is pure old school goodness.

Specineff · Post by **Specineff** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 6:55 pm

Ceph wrote:
Specineff wrote:Gameplay>>>>>>> Soundtrack.
This would indicate that you prefer gameplay over soundtrack. It's LARGER > smaller

That's exactly what I meant. A good game is a good game even in silence. Granted, Einhander's techno score gone missing wouldn't make me feel as pumped, but the gameplay remains intact. A grandiose soundtrack does not improve a broken shmup's gameplay *cough, slowwavecannon, cough* no matter how ingenious (sp?) its composition may be.

Didn't mean to make it look like Last Hope's gameplay surpasses its soundtrack. Newsflash: it doesn't.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:02 am

especially the soundtrack which you will not be getting now

no...... I won't

but I can always pop the game CD in a CD player and listen to the tracks that way

And please put up a new avatar, for Christ's sake! We've had to look at you in your bloody underwear for several months now. Otherwise you win the "Most Ugly Avatar" award of 2006 AND 2007.

why are you being suck a dick all of a sudden... what crawled up your ass and died?

I bought last hope and I don't want to spend 70 for damn cd when I can just pop the game into a cd player. I don't hate it but it's deffinately got some things i see as flaws..... I can dislike it if I want, what's it to you.... you haven't even played the damn thing.

BTW... speaking of lame avatars

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:15 am

Sorry, I was in a bad mood.

But really, BIG didn't give any reasons for his disliking the game, so "he told us so" what exactly? I don't recall him mentioning that explosions and enemy shots are hard to tell apart (being the same color) or any other details.

Strider77 wrote: BTW... speaking of lame avatars

Well, I recently drew me a new avatar. Don't you think it's time for a change of underwear as well?

Frederik · Post by **Frederik** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:15 pm

I like Strider77s avatar. He COULD put on a shirt or a hat depending on the season and take a shot in the exact same position. Avatars should make recognizing people here easier, so even a black box fulfills this purpose as long as the member doesn´t change its avatar on a daily basis. Ceph and DJ Incompetent changed them in a way that you still instantly recognize them, though, which is clever.

And hereby I declare my OT monologue to be over.

Specineff · Post by **Specineff** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:44 pm

Ceph wrote:Sorry, I was in a bad mood.

But really, BIG didn't give any reasons for his disliking the game, so "he told us so" what exactly? I don't recall him mentioning that explosions and enemy shots are hard to tell apart (being the same color) or any other details.

November 13, 2006. It was surprisingly cold for a November morning. I had just finished working on a contract job, locating the documents a lovely new widow needed to claim the inheritance her recently-deceased husband, a telecomms tycoon, had left her. His family never liked her because she was a country girl who had left the farm to pursue her dreams of a career, and marrying a powerful telecomms tycoon. I had found myself paying the bills that at the moment had been piling up due to the lack of previous work. Like ravens or vultures, the bills feasted on the fresh carcass of my recent pay, decimating it enough to leave me with little more than enough to survive for two months. Three, perhaps, if I skimped on some personal luxuries, like Red Bull or Pocky. God, I loved Pocky... suddenly, a knock on the door broke my daydreaming: by the silhouette on the glass I could tell it was probably another young widow. I hoped this time it was about finding the actual killer of the rich husband. I loved those cases...

BIG wrote:Oh man.....

Save your money,kiddies.

I played this game at a Neo-Geo meet a few months back,and I must say that the game is mediocre,at the very best...

B-

"Mediocre". That word stood out like the fresh blood of a recent murder on an chromed Ikea sink. If that wasn't a clear warning, and the magic key I needed to bring this case to an end, I didn't know what it was. For a moment, I allowed myself to think of more Pocky to celebrate another job well done, and smiled, albeit briefly. God, did I love Pocky...

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:23 pm

Mediorcre. Could there possibly remain any questions after such an extensive and detailed discription? I wonder why people use so many words all the time - what a colossal waste of time.

"The game is good."

"The game is bad."

What more info would anyone need.