So, do you feel that Japanese gaming is back?

[evil_ash_xero]

Or on the upswing? Last gen...things looked dire. Fromsoft was basically holding it together (let's not talk about Nintendo, please). And games that were good, didn't sell as well as they should have (Platinum).
It seemed bad. Really bad.

I think with this gen, with Sony being the number one console...and maybe people are burnt out on FPS, that Japanese games are on the upswing.
And I'm purposefully leaving Nintendo out of this.

I'll point out a few things that make me feel this way.

Monster Hunter World - Great game. Sold like 10 million copies. Capcom's best selling game. Capcom was going down the drain, and that was a nice comeback (I'm kind of blown away by the sales of this).
Nier: Automata - Great game. Platinum couldn't sell shit before. Things looked bad for them. This is a very niche franchise. Sold over 3 million.
Persona 5 - Previously a niche title. Sold over 2 million.
Dark Souls III - Sold over 3 million.
Bloodborne - Sold close to 3 million (and an exclusive, at that).
Nioh - Sharp game (some may dispute). Great comeback for Team Ninja. Sold 2 million.
Evil Within - Mixed reception, but I thought it was good. Reliable sales numbers are hard to find on this one. Probably around 2 Million. Sequel did poorly, but it sucked (my opinion).
Metal Gear Solid V - Shipped 6 million copies by the end of 2016. Who knows where it's at now?
Last Guardian - Disappointing sales, but still sold more than any Team Ico game. Probably had a lot to do with the camera.
Ni no Kuni 2 - Most people (gamers, not critics) don't even like this game, and it sold over a million units.
Final Fantasy XV - Not going to discuss the quality of this game (I didn't even play it, as I don't like FF anymore), but sold over 7 million.
Street Fighter V - ....controversial. Disasterous launch. Pulled it together. Has around 2.5 million sold. Should have done better, but they fucked up. Still, not bad.
EDIT: Gonna add a couple more.
Resident Evil 7 - I didn't like it, but was well received. Did decently. They need to go back to third person.
Gravity Rush 2 - I don't think this sold that well, but I really enjoyed it. Just skip the worst side quests of all time.

So, I think that's pretty damn good. Not only that, there are games coming up that look good, and hopefully will sell too.
Shadows Die Twice
Ace Combat 7
Devil May Cry 5 (lots of hype, as it looks to be a return to form)
Dragon Quest XI (looks like it's going to do well, already)
Resident Evil 2 Remake
Valkyria Chronicles 4 (looks great. The PC sales of 1 did really well, so I hope that translates to this being a hit)

I think the quality, popularity, and sales of JP games are going up a lot. I'm particularly happy how Capcom seems to be getting it together.
How do you feel about it? Too bad shmups are dead, though.

EDIT: And let's not compare these to sales of GTA and FIFA. Those are blockbusters. I'm just interested in the quality being there, and JP games doing well enough to keep getting them (and not in budget form. Like the Activision Platinum games, or the day one release of SF V).

[Steamflogger Boss]

The Yakuza series has been peaking. Also Dragon Ball FighterZ is incredible, no idea on it's sales data but it rules hard.

What is the reason you purposefully left out Nintendo? I'd rather play Mario Odyssey than a lot of other new games. The Switch library is already strong and it's only getting stronger. Also the hardware sales are doing pretty damn good especially at the same point along the way for the other consoles.

I'm very impressed with the MHW sales even though those games put me to sleep.

I'm definitely anticipating DQXI and Valkyria Chronicles 4. 14 years between home console DQ games is TOO DAMN LONG. Valkyria Chronicles 4 looks like a return to form.

Overall your premise that game quality is well up from the last gen seems about right. Over the last year and right now, many of my most anticipated games are Japanese! It's been awhile since that was the case. Welcome back Japan.

Still really want RDR2 and Cyberpunk ofc.

[Skykid]

It still occupies a niche in my opinion. Upswing maybe, "back" not really.

[Steamflogger Boss]

It still occupies a niche in my opinion.

I think that will just about always be the case relative to large western releases.

[BryanM]

Yeah. A popular American Football (also known as Hand Egg for those who don't know what I'm talking about) franchise outsells a Persona, on an annual basis. Normies will always outnumber the weirdos who like variety.

It's easy to see why SEGA still has a fanbase these days. They might have been a flailing corporate monster utterly destroyed by MBA's, but by god they always had something new on the table.

It does feel kind of sad that the Link to the Past sequel only sold 1/4th of what Breath of the Wild did.

[BulletMagnet]

They're never going to do the stoopid sales numbers of a Madden or Call of Duty, but the key question is, are they still turning themselves inside out attempting to muscle their way into that incredibly saturated territory no matter the cost, or are they instead willing to cater to the smaller but sustainable audience that already wants the stuff they're already good at? A handful of years ago many developers seemed to be doing the former, and had their Phil Fish moment; nowadays at least some of them appear to have realized that not all of the folks who supported them back when they were more prominant simply disappeared into the ether, and that unquestioned dominance is not the only option. Heaven knows how long it'll last before some other industry shakeup sends all the executives chasing the next shiny object, but it is nice that the "Japanese gaming is dead" talk has largely sputtered out for the moment.

[Steamflogger Boss]

It does feel kind of sad that the Link to the Past sequel only sold 1/4th of what Breath of the Wild did.

That game was a m a z i n g. Link Between Worlds is one of the few reasons to even bother owning a 3DS.

They're never going to do the stoopid sales numbers of a Madden or Call of Duty, but the key question is, are they still turning themselves inside out attempting to muscle their way into that incredibly saturated territory no matter the cost, or are they instead willing to cater to the smaller but sustainable audience that already wants the stuff they're already good at? A handful of years ago many developers seemed to be doing the former, and had their Phil Fish moment; nowadays at least some of them appear to have realized that not all of the folks who supported them back when they were more prominant simply disappeared into the ether, and that unquestioned dominance is not the only option. Heaven knows how long it'll last before some other industry shakeup sends all the executives chasing the next shiny object, but it is nice that the "Japanese gaming is dead" talk has largely sputtered out for the moment.

Nice post, BM.

This gets lost sometimes, imo. Plenty of room to carve out profits and sales in niches. Not making MAX PROFIT doesn't make something a failure.

[BryanM]

The very idea of the reverse - USA developers chasing after that there Japanese horse racing money (the normie market of that country), is quite hilarious.

Always had a soft spot for devs outside these two regions.

I guess the subtitle was chosen for the back of the box copy.

'member when throwing bushes and swimming were new killer features?

[iconoclast]

Japanese developers never stopped making the best games, but maybe they're more popular now. There's no doubt that they've gotten smarter about appealing to the west, with FFXV and Monster Hunter World being prime examples. I doubt this gen has beaten last gen in terms of quality (& quantity of great games) tho, even if we take every STG out of the equation (because then it'd be no contest).

[Steamflogger Boss]

Japanese developers never stopped making the best games, but maybe they're more popular now. There's no doubt that they've gotten smarter about appealing to the west, with FFXV and Monster Hunter World being prime examples. I doubt this gen has beaten last gen in terms of quality (& quantity of great games) tho, even if we take every STG out of the equation (because then it'd be no contest).

Strongly disagree. I would say even now Japan isn't making the best games. Games from Western developers are frequently better and more fun.

Also I like Japanese shooters but lol. Probably not a popular opinion here but there is a reason they drop to $10 or less when released in the US while also being underproduced here.

[evil_ash_xero]

The Yakuza series has been peaking. Also Dragon Ball FighterZ is incredible, no idea on it's sales data but it rules hard.

What is the reason you purposefully left out Nintendo?
.

I totally forgot about Yakuza.

I left out Nintendo, because it's kind of like it's own universe. The whole Japanese gaming industry could fall apart, and Nintendo could still be doing fine.
I'm thinking about everyone else.

[evil_ash_xero]

Japanese developers never stopped making the best games, but maybe they're more popular now. There's no doubt that they've gotten smarter about appealing to the west, with FFXV and Monster Hunter World being prime examples. I doubt this gen has beaten last gen in terms of quality (& quantity of great games) tho, even if we take every STG out of the equation (because then it'd be no contest).

Strongly disagree. I would say even now Japan isn't making the best games. Games from Western developers are frequently better and more fun.

I barely like Western games. I'm in the minority, I know.
I did enjoy DOOM, though.

[Steamflogger Boss]

The Yakuza series has been peaking. Also Dragon Ball FighterZ is incredible, no idea on it's sales data but it rules hard.

What is the reason you purposefully left out Nintendo?
.

I totally forgot about Yakuza.

I left out Nintendo, because it's kind of like it's own universe. The whole Japanese gaming industry could fall apart, and Nintendo could still be doing fine.
I'm thinking about everyone else.

Ah okay, that makes a lot of sense and point taken. Nintendo has had their down periods but they always seem to have a strong bounce back after that. The hardware is almost always underpowered but the key is that their games are just FUN.

Japanese developers never stopped making the best games, but maybe they're more popular now. There's no doubt that they've gotten smarter about appealing to the west, with FFXV and Monster Hunter World being prime examples. I doubt this gen has beaten last gen in terms of quality (& quantity of great games) tho, even if we take every STG out of the equation (because then it'd be no contest).

Strongly disagree. I would say even now Japan isn't making the best games. Games from Western developers are frequently better and more fun.

I barely like Western games. I'm in the minority, I know.
I did enjoy DOOM, though.

Heh, on this forum I'd bet not. Most people that like Japanese shooters probably lean towards liking Japanese games a lot more if I had to guess.

I honestly like both plenty. Both have different quirks though and sometimes the Japanese narrative/story telling quirks and cliches bother me more. Really just kind of depends on my mood which I realize is pretty silly.

I think I play pretty evenly between Japanese and Western games. My all-time favorites list is a nice big mix of both.

[cj iwakura]

I definitely feel like we're in a golden age of localization. All kinds of obscure titles like The Silver Case and 428, with massive labyrinthine amounts of text, are somehow making it stateside.

[Squire Grooktook]

Strongly disagree. I would say even now Japan isn't making the best games. Games from Western developers are frequently better and more fun.

Honestly the only western developed games I like are the original Doom/Quake and indie games which are deliberately taking inspiration from Japanese titles (can those even be called "Western" at that point?). Very little else springs to mind.

Nothing in the larger western AAA sphere or close makes me want to do anything but vomit, though that's probably more a symptom of the homogeneous and sterilized quality of that level of production rather than anything to do with being western.

[Obscura]

Right, you're going to have to explain how games like Prey or Dishonored 2 or Wolfenstein: The New Order or Fortnite are "sterilized and homogenized", but "3D brawler #347,432" or "Monster Hunter, but in open world!" or "Soulsborne 42" or "latest retro-platformer from Inti" or "Mikami making a slavish TLoU clone" or "generic RPG with a high-school life-sim #284" aren't.

Japanese development is at least as assembly line as western AAA, probably moreso.

[evil_ash_xero]

In terms of Western titles, I loved the God of War 1-III games.

Button mashy, but I don't care. They were dope.

[JBC]

Dark Souls III - Sold over 3 million.
Bloodborne - Sold close to 3 million (and an exclusive, at that).
Nioh - Sharp game (some may dispute). Great comeback for Team Ninja. Sold 2 million.

NiOh is superb. I was unsure at first but then one day it dawned on me, "Do I really think a Team Ninja developed Souls clone could be anything less than great?" I picked it up and a couple bosses in I realized how silly it was to ever question

As an aside I missed the most recent flash sale that had Bloodborne's Old Hunters for 6-7 bucks by less than 45 minutes

[Immryr]

Right, you're going to have to explain how games like Prey or Dishonored 2 or Wolfenstein: The New Order or Fortnite are "sterilized and homogenized", but "3D brawler #347,432" or "Monster Hunter, but in open world!" or "Soulsborne 42" or "latest retro-platformer from Inti" or "Mikami making a slavish TLoU clone" or "generic RPG with a high-school life-sim #284" aren't.

Japanese development is at least as assembly line as western AAA, probably moreso.

i'd agree with this, but in general i think innovation is fetishised quite a bit when really, very few games truely are new/innovarive.

having said that, calling the evil within a slavish tlou clone is pretty daft considering tlou is mainly an iteration on the formula mikami invented with resident evil 4.


personally i prefer japanese games, mostly cause i don't like the genres which western developers do better: fps, open world rpgs and sandboxes, or big aaa narrative focused games.

there are some western games i've been meaning to get into but haven't, thief for instance really appeals to me along with a lot of looking glass/arkane's other stuff. i also like the idea of crpgs in theory but i really don't have the patience for them.

[Steamflogger Boss]

but in general i think innovation is fetishised quite a bit when really, very few games truely are new/innovarive.

Yep. I just care if a game is fun to play or not.

I mean shit, Breath of the Wild basically takes Zelda and puts in some western design elements and it's a blast.

Also I didn't mean to start something heh. I should have added "to me" at the end of my statement about generally liking Western game design. Also that was definitely more a thing over the last gen or so for me. Vintage games there is no friggin doubt, Japan hands down imo.

[Obscura]

I was referring to TEW 2 as a slavish TLOU clone, not TEW 1. TEW 2 is pretty blatant about it.

[Squire Grooktook]

Right, you're going to have to explain how games like Prey or Dishonored 2 or Wolfenstein: The New Order or Fortnite are "sterilized and homogenized"

Kinda funny how all those games just so happen to be first person. And involve guns. Funny coincidence, that.

It's almost like you yourself listed more genuine genre variety among those jp cliches, compared to the spectrum of first person action/adventure in those four titles.

Anyway, I have no interest in those game, cept maybe Prey because System Shock is cool. And I think I'd rather stick with System Shock.

[Jonny2x4]

Back? It never went away.

[Immryr]

i assume evil ash is just talking about sales as last gen there was just as many great japanese games, if not more.

[Despatche]

It never left. If sales are the topic, then there was never a real discussion in the first place. Gaming as a whole is kinda circling the drain, has ever since the iPhone took over the world, but we'll see what happens.

[Vanguard]

Honestly the only western developed games I like are the original Doom/Quake and indie games which are deliberately taking inspiration from Japanese titles (can those even be called "Western" at that point?). Very little else springs to mind.

Nothing in the larger western AAA sphere or close makes me want to do anything but vomit, though that's probably more a symptom of the homogeneous and sterilized quality of that level of production rather than anything to do with being western.

Yeah, western games are a wasteland. There was a brief period in the 90s where western games were competitive with Japanese games, but around the turn of the millennium they've turned, almost without exception, into flavorless, focus-grouped muck. Most first/third person shooters have degenerated into competitive peekaboo. Non-shooter action games seem to always feature some flavor of mindless Arkham Asylum combat. WRPGs feel like a deliberate effort to be as unappealing as possible - all the tedium of their predecessors and none of the depth! Everything has RPG elements now, no matter how badly they mesh with the rest of the game. Multiplayer stuff isn't as bad, but I really dislike how nothing is built around 1v1 anymore, presumably so that everyone always has a teammate to blame for their failure.

I think they were destroyed by their own success. They became too profitable and now everything is run by risk-averse investors who want to ensure a return on their investment rather than passionate types who want to make the type of games they'd like to play. Everything gets made for the lowest common denominator since that's the biggest potential audience. It's no coincidence that the one mostly-western genre to resist being dumbed down, roguelikes, are and always have been primarily freeware games.

[Ji-L87]

I used to believe that japanese gaming was on the verge of death as well but then I realized that most of the games I've been buying purely for myself are either japanese or inspired by japanese games.
There is a lot about western games and gaming in the media I consume so it's easy to get a different feeling but probably most - if not all - the games I'm truly excited about for now, with the exception of Cyberpunk 2077, are japanese(-style) titles.

[Steamflogger Boss]

Honestly the only western developed games I like are the original Doom/Quake and indie games which are deliberately taking inspiration from Japanese titles (can those even be called "Western" at that point?). Very little else springs to mind.

Nothing in the larger western AAA sphere or close makes me want to do anything but vomit, though that's probably more a symptom of the homogeneous and sterilized quality of that level of production rather than anything to do with being western.

Yeah, western games are a wasteland. There was a brief period in the 90s where western games were competitive with Japanese games, but around the turn of the millennium they've turned, almost without exception, into flavorless, focus-grouped muck. Most first/third person shooters have degenerated into competitive peekaboo. Non-shooter action games seem to always feature some flavor of mindless Arkham Asylum combat. WRPGs feel like a deliberate effort to be as unappealing as possible - all the tedium of their predecessors and none of the depth! Everything has RPG elements now, no matter how badly they mesh with the rest of the game. Multiplayer stuff isn't as bad, but I really dislike how nothing is built around 1v1 anymore, presumably so that everyone always has a teammate to blame for their failure.

I think they were destroyed by their own success. They became too profitable and now everything is run by risk-averse investors who want to ensure a return on their investment rather than passionate types who want to make the type of games they'd like to play. Everything gets made for the lowest common denominator since that's the biggest potential audience. It's no coincidence that the one mostly-western genre to resist being dumbed down, roguelikes, are and always have been primarily freeware games.

So I would tend to agree with some of your points. I watched Witcher literally turn more into the standard gameplay mush by 3. I still played through it but ehh.

That said, Japan isn't much better if at all. They have been churning out the same stuff for years too. Have you seen the cookie cutter stuff that is coming out of Japan lately?

Also RPGs are tedious by nature, I wouldn't say anything western is any more tedious than the slogfest that is JRPGs. And I mean, I've cleared Dragon Quest IV through IX and many many other JRPGs over the years so this is coming from someone who generally enjoys the genre.

Acting like Japan is some pillar of creative light in comparison is odd.

But again I like plenty of stuff coming from Japan and the west. Yakuza is one of my favorite franchises and it's the same game every time but with a different story and some mini-game variation. So I guess I just don't think the lack of innovation is a huge deal from either side. *shrug*

[Lord of Pirates]

Right, you're going to have to explain how games like Prey or Dishonored 2 or Wolfenstein: The New Order or Fortnite are "sterilized and homogenized", but "3D brawler #347,432" or "Monster Hunter, but in open world!" or "Soulsborne 42" or "latest retro-platformer from Inti" or "Mikami making a slavish TLoU clone" or "generic RPG with a high-school life-sim #284" aren't.

Japanese development is at least as assembly line as western AAA, probably moreso.

Very much agree with this.

At Ash: Most of the games you listed have been popular series here for years or even decades.

[Mischief Maker]

Screw Japanese gaming, I want former-Warsaw-pact gaming to come back. Some of my favorite computer games of the last 20 years came out of that region. Games like:

A.I.M. 2 - Clan Wars (Open world game in a speculative sci-fi world of an abandoned automated weapons development facility becoming a society of self-aware AI featuring the best hovertank combat I've ever played)
The I of the Dragon (Magic Carpet spiritual successor that has you playing a full-sized dragon)
Victor Vran (Mixing action and RPG almost always works to the detriment of one or both genres, but VV is the one game I've played that's greater than the sum of its constituent genres)
King Arthur (A really classy Total War meets text adventure game that nails the feel of Boorman's film. Stay away from the sequel, tho.)
Eador: Masters of the Broken World (Gameplay-wise the best fantasy 4X EVAR)

Unfortunately these same developers usually suck at coding so most of these games are so buggy they're barely playable on modern machines.