Best vertical shmups that run well on Raspberry Pi?

[8 1/2]

I'm building a bartop-style cabinet with a vertical monitor and a Raspberry Pi inside. I'm curious if anyone has experience running any semi-modern shmups on one? I don't expect many newer games to run well on it, but it would be great it it could pull off semi-old games like Raiden Fighters, Battle Garegga, Dodonpachi, etc. Any information or shared experiences greatly appreciated.

[Dochartaigh]

This is what I have loaded on my RP3. Not every single one will be TATE but a lot of them are. I haven't played every one all the way through, but all seem to run good when I did play them.



The above are all running in FBAlpha 0.175. There's maybe 3 or 4 (forget exactly which ones) which don't work in FBAlpha so I run those in mame2003.

[8 1/2]

Wow, so stuff like Batrider, Garegga and the early Cave games will actually run relatively full speed?

[WelshMegalodon]

I'm building a bartop-style cabinet with a vertical monitor

and a Raspberry Pi inside.

mame2003

Please don't do this. Even a low-end PC from the past five or six years will run these games better than a Pi.

Spoiler

This is why I don't understand why people keep touting these devices as good for MAME. I can understand it when scummy companies do it to sell a product (like that OrangePi in a Genesis style case) because they couldn't give a shit about quality, and just want to sell a crap product and make some cash, but I still don't get why hobbyists push them as if they're going to give a good experience, they're not, nobody should be forced to use something as old as 0.139 just for performance, nevermind 0.78 or older just because the hardware isn't up to it.

I know it's not an amazingly popular opinion, and I can only assume that is because on the surface everything 'seems' fine with those old versions, and people have a low bar when it comes to quality, people are only playing the games lightly and don't pick up on the minor emulation issues, or see the games fall apart completely in later levels because at surface level it seems to work.

Maybe I'm biased because I work on MAME, but a lot of my absolute favourite breakthrough moments have come in those 7 years.

Instructions per cycle is ridiculously low, cache is ridiculously low, memory access speeds are low. Everything you'd look for in a checklist of 'good CPU for emulation' is missing. For the ARM based ones like the Pi there's also the fact that some of the most important optimizations in MAME don't work with them (the fastest delegate implementation) so you're losing out there before you even take into consideration the CPU limits. Emulators by nature have to run a LOT of code for every instruction they emulate, so instructions per clock is vital. There's a lot of context switching, so cache needs to be big enough to keep everything available for quick access, likewise there's a lot of memory being pushed around, bitmaps being updated and copied every frame, so again you ideally want it in cache, or otherwise have fast access to it. A lot of things in MAME rely heavily on delegates for callbacks etc. so if that code isn't optimally compiled performance suffers a lot. Yes, that's an oversimplification, but these are all things the mentioned CPUs are bad at without going into too much complex detail.

Last I used an ATOM it couldn't even run Namco System 2 at full speed without a ton of hacks, that's 80s hardware. It also cried at anything with discrete sound, so unless you're willing to make big sacrifices it's an awful choice. The Pi you have less of a choice, you're spoon fed already hacked up awful versions, still a bad choice. They're only acceptable choices if you have absolutely no standards because, as I mentioned, their featuresets are the exact opposite of what emulation needs, they're the least suitable things for the job yet people keep trying to use them. Let's use a different analogy, it's like eating your dinner with a spanner instead of a knife and fork, you could, but it's not a great idea, and if people started suggesting it you'd likely try to explain that to them.

The PC software is magnitudes better, so I find it a little sad when I see all these "I built an arcade" threads, with the inevitable disappointment of "I used a Pi" It remains a poor tool for the job.

But if it was such an old PC maybe you could only run poor versions of MAME anyway, and maybe the fact that it was an old PC was why it was problematic in the first place as old machines often are. A well set up PC shouldn't be any more problematic and I've heard just as many people complain about Pi builds wiping their cards or other random issues even if you ignore the much lower quality emulation they offer.

"I used a Pi" has become the new "I put an X-Arcade in it" both ultimately lead to disappointment after a while.

A Pi is suitable for emulation in the same way that you can tie a sofa to the roof of a Prius and jet around town: it works, and it saves a lot of money, but you'll get odd looks from people who know what they're doing and eventually someone's getting surprise furniture in their face.

[8 1/2]

Well, it's just about cost. I don't have a PC to use, and the Pi is so cheap it's tempting. It's mostly for old school stuff and emulated early console stuff. I can always swap out the Pi for a PC later on.

[opt2not]

Well, it's just about cost. I don't have a PC to use, and the Pi is so cheap it's tempting. It's mostly for old school stuff and emulated early console stuff. I can always swap out the Pi for a PC later on.

If it's about cost, you're better off going to a thrift store and buying an old PC for what it'll cost for a Pi + SD Card, and whatever add-ons you're looking to get. A low-end PC will cost you about the same, but with give you a better emulation experience, plus it's easier to set-up. Sure you could get a pre-made image for the Pi that sets everything up for you, but those take a lot of tweaking to get them to play nice with your set-up, and still it's a pain to have to deal with everything through FTP/Telnet/etc.

You're in LA, even a Craigslist search for an older PC can yield you a Dual-core 3ghz PC for $50 that is more than enough for good shmup emulation.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I know someone local who has a Raspberry Pi and honestly, it's not good - I don't know if it's the versions of MAME available for it or whatnot, but numerous games in the catalogue struggle to run properly, generally shmups made around or after the year 2000. It's very hit or miss - older stuff like Ms. Pac Man or Rampage will work fine. Donpachi and Giga Wing both were playable, but Dodonpachi appeared to have a stuttering issue... not sure if it was just the version of MAME they were using or some other setup issue, but it was definitely a very old version of MAME.

Sure, the hardware's inexpensive, but it's a novelty and isn't intended for a serious setup. You don't need particularly expensive hardware to get a decent MAME computer setup running most 2D games (on a newer/better version of MAME with low latency such as Shmupmame) at full speed unless you're running the more seriously intensive games (namely anything that's 3D/polygonal stuff). Plus, with an actual PC, you have the option of running a variety of other 2D games as well as long as they are 4:3 (or 3:4 for vert) aspect ratio. In that case you'd basically have a keyboard beside the computer to make navigation easier and just bind the controls in each game individually.

If it's about cost, you're better off going to a thrift store and buying an old PC for what it'll cost for a Pi + SD Card

This. Plus, an older PC will be more versatile, and easier to work with and to install new games on. You could even throw a free operating system on there like Ubuntu to save a bit of cash too if you like (assuming it'll work with your controller setup).

[mycophobia]

+1 on Pi being awful for MAME, from personal experience

[8 1/2]

I'm not worried about it. Pi will set me back like $50 and I have an extra SD card. This is mainly just for old school arcade stuff for now. Thanks for the suggestions though.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

On a Raspberry Pi I actually had more luck with Hori games in general. There are a lot more options for games, including shmups. R-Type Leo worked well, as did Giga Wing, and Metal Black.

The original Donpachi worked decently, Omega Fighter ran well (though there are questions about MAME's emulation accuracy now), and I think Dangun Feveron worked decently? Mighty Bomb Jack would probably run well, as would Mahou Daisakusen/Sorcer Striker. Batsugun has sound issues in older MAME versions but some other Toaplan games might run (though they're a bit hit or miss, IMO). The only setup I played on with a Raspberry Pi was in a hori orientation though, so I am afraid I didn't try many verts.

[WelshMegalodon]

On that note, just a friendly reminder that audio wasn't properly implemented in Dogyuun, Batsugun, and V-V until around 2011, and in Vimana and Same! Same! Same! until 2016.

[Dochartaigh]

Plus, an older PC will be more versatile, and easier to work with and to install new games on.

A low-end PC will cost you about the same, but with give you a better emulation experience, plus it's easier to set-up.

Crap...guess I didn't hit send at work, but to reiterate what I typed up, and I'm kinda joking here (and kinda not), but are you two smoking crack? Serial

I'm assuming both of you are talking about MAME, but tell me with a straight face that Clrmamepro is an easy and intuitive program to use in order to organize your sets. Tell me that having to manually edit multiple config files (which don't follow even a shred of logic from common programming languages I use like HTML, CSS, or Javascript), and/or how having to put code into the executable launch line to get a game to run like you want it to, is easy for somebody new to MAME. Tell me that setting up a front end for MAME (which doesn't look like shit and actually works and has game artwork and game descriptions and such) is a piece of cake.

My experience with MAME has been nothing but a nightmare from hell. Now granted I wanted to go the extra mile and do two 'special' things with MAME: use it on a 15khz CRT, and still be able to use the Windows PC I built from scratch and dropped ~$500 on as a regular computer for browsing the web and watching movies on my flatscreen TV (as money doesn't grow on trees and I'm not designating a good computer solely to playing retro games).

To make a long story short, literally, no joke, no exaggeration, 40+ hours later over the course of maybe a month (reinstalled Win 7 and 10 I don't know how many times) I was able to launch my first MAME game and play it with a super-common USB Fightstick controller. Just getting the Hori/MadCatz-type controllers to work took about 12 hours (I posted on four different forums, multiple Reddit groups, and about six mame-centric Facebook groups asking people how to setup USB controllers in GroovyMAME – nobody knew how evidentially as over many weeks I don't think a single person even bothered to respond). Oh, and don't remind me how I still haven't even finished working out how to make my Controller IDs stable using the "mapdevice" config setting (because if you don't know, you can't even do something simple like plug/unplug a controller or it gets f'd up because "By default, the mapping between devices and controller IDs is not stable" - that's verbatim from the HORRIBLE mame documentation, FYI - it's really absolutely worthless).

Anyway, take the above for what it's worth. Those of you who have been using MAME for a while probably think I'm crazy AND a dumbass for not being able to get MAME up and running easily (it's just so different than any other program I've ever used...since my first Commodore 64 way back when I haven't had this much of a problem getting even a single game to run properly)... just like how you recursively might think setting up a Raspberry Pi 3 with a program like RetroPie is a super complicated mind-numbing process as well (which BTW, I can get a RP3 with a freshly formatted SD card up and running in under an hour, with the full and complete library of NES/SNES/TG16/Genesis/etc. games plus the ~200 MAME games I enjoy playing, all running at 60 FPS, in glorious 240p RGBS, on a Sony BVM or PVM, setup with a bunch of favorite playlists and top 50 games for each system...even have the 2017 Shmups of the year from this site loaded up in a playlist; and the RP3 will have full --and setup in about 10 seconds/each-- controller support for any controller I want from an original NES controller with USB adapter, to a wireless Xbox 360 pad, to a PS4 fightstick with real Sanwa parts. Oh, and give me an extra hour or two and I'll have custom switchres' setup so most games run at their native resolutions on a proper CRT, and I can even add descriptions and logos/art for every single game loaded up as well if the internet is speedy that day).

P.S. The worst part was after ALL this massive hassle, I loaded up all the arcade games I've been keeping a list of – all games which I wasn't able to play on my Raspberry Pi 3, and I'd say about 70% of those STILL won't play on my Windows PC in MAME either - the MAME dev team just hasn't been able to get them to run quite yet I guess. MAJOR bummer as I dropped like $500 on this computer, and tens and tens of hours on this project and I STILL can't play what I want to...

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Some releases of MAME have flaky support for arcade sticks, and MAME seems not play well with JoytoKey either. Madcatz controllers can also be flaky on PC. And yes, MAME doesn't gracefully handle unplugging and plugging back in devices while it's running.

Still doesn't make Raspberry Pi any less awful for MAME though.

the MAME dev team just hasn't been able to get them to run quite yet I guess.

???

There's a difference between a game running badly in MAME due to the hardware not being strong enough vs the game not running in MAME because it isn't properly emulated yet. Are you sure you checked that those games you're talking about are listed as working in a current version of MAME...?

MAME isn't that bad to just get a game running, the hardest part is making sure the romset for the game you have matches what the current version expects the romset to be.

[WelshMegalodon]

Oh boy, yet another MAME thread!

I'm assuming both of you are talking about MAME, but tell me with a straight face that Clrmamepro is an easy and intuitive program to use in order to organize your sets. Tell me that having to manually edit multiple config files (which don't follow even a shred of logic from common programming languages I use like HTML, CSS, or Javascript), and/or how having to put code into the executable launch line to get a game to run like you want it to, is easy for somebody new to MAME. Tell me that setting up a front end for MAME (which doesn't look like shit and actually works and has game artwork and game descriptions and such) is a piece of cake.

I've been using some form of MAME for over 15 years and have never so much as thought about using clrmamepro, since I can count on one hand the number of times I've had trouble finding the correct ROM for a game I want to play. It's just a matter of using Progetto EMMA, the -listcrc command, and of course Google.

As for frontends, I've never had any use for one, so I can't speak for that. Same goes for your particular controller, since MAME recognizes my cheap-ass Logitech F310 without any trouble.

I can get a RP3 with a freshly formatted SD card up and running in under an hour, with the full and complete library of NES/SNES/TG16/Genesis/etc. games plus the ~200 MAME games I enjoy playing, all running at 60 FPS, in glorious 240p RGBS, on a Sony BVM or PVM, setup with a bunch of favorite playlists and top 50 games for each system...even have the 2017 Shmups of the year from this site loaded up in a playlist; and the RP3 will have full --and setup in about 10 seconds/each-- controller support for any controller I want from an original NES controller with USB adapter, to a wireless Xbox 360 pad, to a PS4 fightstick with real Sanwa parts. Oh, and give me an extra hour or two and I'll have custom switchres' setup so most games run at their native resolutions on a proper CRT, and I can even add descriptions and logos/art for every single game loaded up as well if the internet is speedy that day).

The whole RetroPie thing isn't hard, just... annoying. There's little about the resulting final product that justifies the extra fiddling about.

P.S. The worst part was after ALL this massive hassle, I loaded up all the arcade games I've been keeping a list of – all games which I wasn't able to play on my Raspberry Pi 3, and I'd say about 70% of those STILL won't play on my Windows PC in MAME either - the MAME dev team just hasn't been able to get them to run quite yet I guess. MAJOR bummer as I dropped like $500 on this computer, and tens and tens of hours on this project and I STILL can't play what I want to...

BareKnuckleRoo already addressed this, but what games were you having trouble with? If you were trying to play stuff from after 2000 or even 3D titles from the mid-90s onwards, it's a well-known fact that they run poorly in MAME.

[Dochartaigh]

(this is in response to BareKnuckleRoo, but I saw you posted too while I was typing WelshMegalodon)


The last time I tried I was using the newest MAME at the time - 0.193 or 0.195 I believe. Romset always matched the version of mame64.exe I was using, and my romsets are always verified with clrmamepro so that was never the problem (and I honestly don't know how people can possibly use the wrong roms with the wrong version of mame - that's like step #1 to match them up).

For the fightsticks, I have 5x fightsticks (think 3-4 different models from 2 different manufacturers?), and all work on everything else I've tried them on including windows and even my mac computer I think (I did sell my SFIV which had a problem with Windows and RP3). I actually just built a fightstick with a MC Cthulhu so I hope that plays nice with mame when I try it next.

About 7/10 of the games on my list (or the ones I randomly tried at least) would not work. I guess they were marked 'non-working' or whatever verbiage they use...don't recall a single one which loaded and let me play but just played slow or whatnot like you describe (and my MAME pc, although built with all new components, is far from high-end, like $500 all-in). So after that small batch of testing, there honestly wasn't much I couldn't play on my RP3 so I haven't had much incentive to fire the Mame PC back up and try it again with how much more difficult it is to get it running.

I'll also add since you and others have mentioned how 'awful' the emulation is on the RP3, that you must all have amazing photographic memories of these games and how they played back in the day (or have an extensive collection of arcade boards I haven't been to a real arcade in a good 10-15 years...so when I play a game that's on the compatibility list for RetroPie, and it seems to play good without stutter and at a good frame rate, no super weird audio hickups or anything, and furthermore looks absolutely amazing on my 900 TVL BVM in 240p over RGB complete with beautiful scanlines, I honestly can't think of anything to complain about in regards to the emulation - I'm simply enjoying playing them. The majority of my games are in FB Alpha v0.2.97.42 (think 0.175) too, --not in mame2003 which you quoted me on-- which unless I'm missing something I thought that's a pretty recent release, no? And yes, I know FB Alpha is a different animal than MAME, but these still seem to play great for me, and are just games after all.

BareKnuckleRoo already addressed this, but what games were you having trouble with? If you were trying to play stuff from after 2000 or even 3D titles from the mid-90s onwards, it's a well-known fact that they run poorly in MAME.

I probably have/had some 3d stuff on my list, but stopped visiting arcades before 3d was the rage so those aren't really the type of games I would be looking to play. Do have a bunch of the later Cave stuff on my list of course (which I forget which did and didn't play to be honest - I was so fed up by this time).

[BareKnuckleRoo]

"About 7/10 of the games on my list (or the ones I randomly tried at least) would not work. I guess they were marked 'non-working' or whatever verbiage they use"

MAME has a ton of games catalogued that are non-working because they are the roms for slot machines and such and thus will like never be "working" - have you tried using something like MAMEPlus which lets you use a GUI for viewing the game list? What exactly are you getting as an error message - there's a difference between an error in regards to missing romset and trying to load a non-working game (as in one that's not emulated).

"but these still seem to play great for me, and are just games after all."

lol

I don't know anything about FinalBurn Alpha and its compatibility - have not used it before, and as far as I know the Raspberry Pi I tried was not setup with it (and if it was its romset might have only been for like MAME 2003).

I just noticed there appears to be newer releases of the Raspberry Pi, but I confirmed, and the one I tried was a Pi3, 32GB. So I think that's one of the newer ones and not an older one. It's possible that FBA works better than the weird, old versions of MAME that are bundled with it, but it was not setup to use FBA so I have no experience there with it and don't know how it is for compatibility in general, input lag, usability, etc. Couldn't tell you how it compares.

edit: found a few fairly recent (6 months old) threads like this for RetroPie, talking about how some games run better in MAME vs FBA: https://retropie.org.uk/forum/topic/137 ... vs-mame/28

It sounds really obnoxious to have to juggle three or four different flavours of emulator to find out which game runs it best. Again, I'd have to actually play a few dozen games in FBA to compare, but I mean why bother? The latest build of MAMEPlus runs fantastic and incorporates a modern MAME build, and ShmupMAME offers a low input lag build for shmup playing.

The only thing MAME is currently missing is a good, recent netplay capable build. The modern versions of MAMEPlus with Kaillera support have a bug where the 64 bit version doesn't detect the Kaillera client, and the 32 bit version has a bug and can't netplay properly (all games run at like 5 FPS when netplayed, menu is barely responsive). MAMEPlus 0.119 was the newest I could find with functional netplay support.

[WelshMegalodon]

For the fightsticks, I have 5x fightsticks (think 3-4 different models from 2 different manufacturers?), and all work on everything else I've tried them on including windows and even my mac computer I think (I did sell my SFIV which had a problem with Windows and RP3). I actually just built a fightstick with a MC Cthulhu so I hope that plays nice with mame when I try it next.

Why would you go to the trouble of buying a nice arcade stick with high-quality parts and then pair it with an inaccurate emulator?

About 7/10 of the games on my list (or the ones I randomly tried at least) would not work. I guess they were marked 'non-working' or whatever verbiage they use...don't recall a single one which loaded and let me play but just played slow or whatnot like you describe (and my MAME pc, although built with all new components, is far from high-end, like $500 all-in). So after that small batch of testing, there honestly wasn't much I couldn't play on my RP3 so I haven't had much incentive to fire the Mame PC back up and try it again with how much more difficult it is to get it running.

You could very well have been missing BIOS files, parent ROMs, CHDs, or device ROMs. Again, Progetto EMMA and the -listcrc command will tell you exactly what you need to get a particular ROM running.

I'll also add since you and others have mentioned how 'awful' the emulation is on the RP3, that you must all have amazing photographic memories of these games and how they played back in the day (or have an extensive collection of arcade boards

The five games I mentioned above straight up did not have sound. That's definitely something I would remember if I had played any of these in an arcade. With earlier builds of MAME you also had other noticeable issues like missing speech and colors in Berzerk or stages that were out of order in Operation Wolf. There are also other things like emulated glow for vector games and games like Wizard of Wor that were only introduced in newer releases of MAME.

And I don't see why not having experienced a game in the arcade gives me an excuse to settle for an inferior experience when a little extra effort will let me play something far closer to the original. Am I supposed to settle for shitty wind effects in Chrono Trigger because I never owned a Super Nintendo back in the day?

ShmupMAME offers a low input lag build for shmup playing

Every time someone endorses ShmupMAME a desynced background layer dies. Don't be a chump - use GroovyMAME for low-lag MAME instead.

We should let Shmupmame rest in piece, GroovyMAME is the only build effectively giving less lag than the regular builds, and it does without using damaging hacks.

[Bananamatic]

Every time someone endorses ShmupMAME a desynced background layer dies. Don't be a chump - use GroovyMAME for low-lag MAME instead.

I like screen tearing because it's a good indicator of vsync being off

[Xyga]

Lol, no screen tearing with GroovyMAME.

[FRO]

but these still seem to play great for me, and are just games after all.

The most salient point in the thread.

I will echo the comment about MAMEPlus, but then, I haven't tried GroovyMAME yet. When using MAME to play older games and shmups up to the mid-90's, and even stuff like Brave Blade, I've not found any problems, even on older PC hardware. That said, I'm not overly concerned with FPS counts, though input lag is definitely a concern, especially for a genre like this. The rig I'm building for my living room is going to be mildly beastly (GTX 1060 6G, recent i7 quad core, 16GB RAM), so I suspect I won't have the problems you're running into, but obviously if performance is a concern, and the general consensus is that GroovyMAME is the way to go, I'll probably go that direction as well. I use a Logitech F310 as well, and while it's not a super fantastic pad, it works well for all that I've been playing.

[mycophobia]

kinda off topic but is there a benefit to using groovymame over regular mame if I'm not using a CRT or the CRT-specific features (the drivers or whatever)?

[Dochartaigh]

Why would you go to the trouble of buying a nice arcade stick with high-quality parts and then pair it with an inaccurate emulator?

No offense, but you're asking why I'm using a Fightstick with real arcade hardware, while you mention you're using a "cheap-ass Logitech F310" (which isn't anything close to real arcade hardware), all the while saying how horrible MAME is when played on the RP3 because it isn't an "accurate" enough of an experience... do you see the contradiction there or is it just me?

(and you could very well have a collection of 100+ fightsticks, and primarily play on a real arcade cab you cut down to act as a combination coffee table AND period-correct, totally-accurate controller for your MAME playing...but still...the crappy F310? Really? lol I sent back 10 of those I bulk ordered because it didn't hold a candle to the $5 PS2 controllers (+$2.50 USB adapter) I was picking up at local fleamarkets or LetGo left and right.

You could very well have been missing BIOS files, parent ROMs, CHDs, or device ROMs. Again, Progetto EMMA and the -listcrc command will tell you exactly what you need to get a particular ROM running.

Everything is verified with Clrmamepro as a 100% complete set, and with everything in the correct directory so it can be found (especially if it has a CHD or whatnot), should mean I have everything required (if a game is said to run - which in my case, as I mentioned above, many are sadly listed as non-working or whatnot so there's no help there sadly).

This again touches on how difficult MAME is to run. The worst I have to do with my RP3 is make sure neogeo.zip is in the same folder as the Neo Geo games I want to run and I have no problem running all ~200 arcade games I play. (oh, and P.S. I tried to google what 'Progetto EMMA' was...and get sent to their website, which is in Italian, with a broken "English" language button...again, something made just a little bit more difficult in my search to get MAME running correctly!

The five games I mentioned above straight up did not have sound. That's definitely something I would remember if I had played any of these in an arcade. With earlier builds of MAME you also had other noticeable issues like missing speech and colors in Berzerk or stages that were out of order in Operation Wolf. There are also other things like emulated glow for vector games and games like Wizard of Wor that were only introduced in newer releases of MAME.

Again, I mentioned (four times actually) how I primarily use FB Alpha on the RP3. FB Alpha v0.2.97.42 to be exact which I think is only 1 version back from their newest release. Batsugun as one of your specific examples, and I'm not home not to quadruple check, but that's on my initial list above and is something I've played before complete with sound.

I only use MAME proper (since it's an older version) for the "3 or 4 [shmups] which don't work in FBAlpha" like I mentioned in my first post. (which FYI, even the ancient mame2003/0.78 has Wizard of Wor listed as working on the RP3).

And I don't see why not having experienced a game in the arcade gives me an excuse to settle for an inferior experience when a little extra effort will let me play something far closer to the original.

My entire way-too-long last post was about how utterly horrible it is to setup MAME for a first time user (and how most people can get a RetroPie/RP3 setup running in VERY short order). So when you say it only takes "a little extra effort", while in the same post saying something like how I have to use the "Progetto EMMA and the -listcrc command" (i.e. having to key in a specific line of code to verify something will work, before I have to punch in yet another line of code to get MAME running to begin with...), kinda doubles down in proving my point about how MAME is complicated as shit for somebody new to all this and what a steep learning curve it has.





To the OP, you're completely right that the RP3 can be a good solution for a project like this. And at a $50 investment for a RP3 B+ with 2.5 amp power supply (get the new model 3 B+ with faster processor and 5hgz wifi which came out last month) paired with the micro SD card you already own - and you can even pickup a LCD monitor (if you're using one, don't know if you're using that or a CRT) are literally free or ~$10 on Craigslist for an older 4:3 one, you really have nothing to loose as this is totally affordable project for anyone. P.S. if you do use a CRT, what the others aren't understanding is with the switchres command people are now using, the RP3 is essentially doing exactly what GroovyMAME does with switching the resolution on a per-system or per-rom basis to get the most accurate picture possible.

BUT, if you want to drop some more cash on a proper Windows PC (or take the risk on a ~10 year old used Windows computer for the same money as the RP3), and possibly have to do a LOT more setup, more troubleshooting, more reading and learning and trial and error, they you CAN get better emulation performance off a system like that (which is why I moved from a RP3 to a Windows PC myself...it's just a shame I still can't get the PC running like I want it to...still going to try...just be forewarned).

[cools]

This again touches on how difficult MAME is to run. The worst I have to do with my RP3 is make sure neogeo.zip is in the same folder as the Neo Geo games I want to run and I have no problem running all ~200 arcade games I play. (oh, and P.S. I tried to google what 'Progetto EMMA' was...and get sent to their website, which is in Italian, with a broken "English" language button...again, something made just a little bit more difficult in my search to get MAME running correctly!

I use a Raspberry Pi for 8/16bit console emulation on a TV (as it's a small super cheap box I can tuck away in the few inches of space I have for it), no elitism here - confused how modern MAME is difficult to set up though?

Extract it to a folder, drop your ROMs in the roms folder, run the executable, set up your controller with the UI and launch a game. There are 90 million parameters that can be tweaked but unless there's something drastically wrong it should just work without a hitch.

[Xyga]

kinda off topic but is there a benefit to using groovymame over regular mame if I'm not using a CRT or the CRT-specific features (the drivers or whatever)?

Definitely, on a Windows machine there's less lag than with the other MAME builds (RetroArch not applying since it's got its own debatable ways)

Just setting the 'video' to D3D in Groovy's mame.ini actually uses D3D9ex which queues something like two frames less than regular D3D9.
Which in many cases is actually more efficient at reducing lag than ShmupMAME and this without breaking sprite layer timings.
Then there's a handful of other settings to look at in the mame.ini under SWITCHRES category, like setting 'monitor' to 'lcd', or choosing a value for 'sync_refresh_tolerance' which is on 2 by default but I personally set to 2.5 (depends on what games you usually play and the kind of sync you want GM to use for these, but I won't expand here)

For advanced users there's also the possibility to optimize the lag manually for each emulated system individually, GM allow you to benchmark them on the PC you're using and to find the optimal 'frame_delay' values.
Although doing it this way demands some learning and time, the procedure has been made easier recently with a slider to help find the best values while testing ingame.
But this is optional, there's a number of other things to take into consideration, and there's clearly more benefit in doing that on a CRT setup.

Beware though I've read about some legacy D3D stuff not working right anymore since the latest Win 10 update (1803).

[mycophobia]

Ah thanks, but I'm using Linux w/ opengl

[Dochartaigh]

I use a Raspberry Pi for 8/16bit console emulation on a TV (as it's a small super cheap box I can tuck away in the few inches of space I have for it), no elitism here - confused how modern MAME is difficult to set up though?

Extract it to a folder, drop your ROMs in the roms folder, run the executable, set up your controller with the UI and launch a game. There are 90 million parameters that can be tweaked but unless there's something drastically wrong it should just work without a hitch.

If you're talking about MAME on the Raspberry Pi 3 (using RetroPie at least, which uses the RetroArch core like most retro gaming software suites do on the RP3), there is no modern MAME to speak of. Latest/most-recent version which will run decent is the MAME from 2003 (0.78 romset). There's other (more recent) versions of MAME like mame2010/2014/2016, but those are considered 'optional' or 'experimental' i.e. they don't run the greatest on the RP3 because it's a low-powered $35 computer. mame2003 is the defacto standard for MAME on the RP3.

For RP3, when I want to emulate arcade machines, I personally use FB Alpha v0.2.97.42 which is a more recent version and seems to run better on the RP3 (this is also what a bunch of the mods/contributors/programmers of RetroPie use themselves). You are correct (that on both MAME and FB Alpha) that you literally just copy over your roms, reboot the RP3 so it recognizes the new roms, then you can play them immediately with no real hassle.



If you're talking about MAME on a Windows PC, if you know the special command line to run a certain rom a certain way, you can go into Window's MS-DOS emulator (type "CMD" in the Start > Run window) then type "cd mame" and enter to enter the mame directory you setup, then type that code out to run the mame64 executable which then launches the game you specified with any specific options you entered and can get MAME up and running without too much trouble... (and yes, I'm making this sound a bit more difficult because it's not easy to many people who grew up with iPhones and never touched DOS and maybe never even programmed anything in their lives). Oh, and I forgot, you can't even do the above without knowing to run the "mame64 -cc" command to setup the initial config files beforehand. Oh, also forgot you have to manually edit (in a text editor) those config files to choose if you're going to run direct draw or direct 3d or whatever, along with whatever else you need to do to make it work correctly.

Just to get a 4-player setup running with common USB controllers (which may get unplugged from time to time), through the built-in UI like you said and you're in for a world of hurt and scouring the web and watching YouTube videos trying to figure things out, like why your controller maybe won't work after you unplug it and plug it in again. Just to program one single controller is a bitch - there's literally something like 200 different buttons arcade games use on this big huge list (thankfully you'll hopefully just be dealing with simple ones at first like: up down left right start add coin exit and buttons #1-6 or 1-8)....then you'll wonder why after you just programmed the controller that up/down enter/exit doesn't work on your USB controller when you're in the mame UI/front-end anymore....oh, that's because you have to program those buttons a second time, through a second totally separate menu so your controller is able to control the actual navigation system in mame as well (as in when you're not even playing a game).... You'll have to excuse me if I just totally screwed up some of the above specifics as it's been at least 4 months since I did this the last time (and that was the first time), but all my memory tells me is it's not as easy as it sounds (especially when I wanted to run things on a CRT and not a LCD/flatscreen...just the "initial" installation directions for GroovyMAME on Calamity's forum is 18 pages/6,524 words long! That's not even talking about the other completely separate tutorial i have to do first to setup the CRT Emudriver/video-card drivers you need in order to use GroovyMAME on a 15khz monitor in the first place...).

[BareKnuckleRoo]

If you're talking about MAME on a Windows PC, if you know the special command line to run a certain rom a certain way, you can go into Window's MS-DOS emulator

The command line isn't an MS-DOS emulator, it's just a command line interface for Windows (Windows is basically just a convenient graphical interface for doing everything you can do via command line). The system is still Windows. This is a DOS emulator.

Also I feel like maybe some of your problems with the PC versions of MAME stem from the fact that you've never used a version with a GUI before...? If you have not tried something like MAMEPlus with its convenient GUI, I highly recommend it as it makes the whole process of sorting ROMs, auditing them for what files are missing, doing individual setup tweaks per game, etc, all really easy and painless compared to the way you're describing doing everything via command line.

oh, that's because you have to program those buttons a second time

MAME checks the General settings for default buttons, then it checks the .cfg file per game for game-specific inputs. If you change any inputs under the game specific menu, it will override the general settings. A bartop or even an arcade stick setup would be just a matter of going into general settings, and mapping the stick and buttons, which would be like 5 minutes, and presto, all games mapped (you can even delete the individual game .cfg files to be safe if you're worried you have overrides on).

And you'd still have the option of game specific overrides such as third button autofire or a third button that does Button 1 and 2 at the same time (for games where pressing both executes a specific action, but the frame input window is tiny such as for certain Konami beat 'em ups). This is totally doable in real life by wiring 2 buttons to a third button to if you're playing on an actual arcade board.

A couple of folks are recommending GroovyMAME but afaik it is meant for CRTs, is fairly complex to setup, and requires/highly recommends an ATI video card. I also recall it does not have built-in support for autofire buttons...? But I could be mistaken. Seems like a lot of effort when a little bit of tearing with vsync off is manageable...

[Dochartaigh]

The command line isn't an MS-DOS emulator, it's just a command line interface for Windows (Windows is basically just a convenient graphical interface for doing everything you can do via command line). The system is still Windows. This is a DOS emulator.

hey, when I can still use the same commands to delete files, enter a directory, make a directory, find a file, run a file, as I did back in 1988 when I first used DOS, it's still DOS to me

Also I feel like maybe some of your problems with the PC versions of MAME stem from the fact that you've never used a version with a GUI before...? If you have not tried something like MAMEPlus with its convenient GUI, I highly recommend it as it makes the whole process of sorting ROMs, auditing them for what files are missing, doing individual setup tweaks per game, etc, all really easy and painless compared to the way you're describing doing everything via command line.

......................

A couple of folks are recommending GroovyMAME but afaik it is meant for CRTs, is fairly complex to setup, and requires/highly recommends an ATI video card. I also recall it does not have built-in support for autofire buttons...? But I could be mistaken. Seems like a lot of effort when a little bit of tearing with vsync off is manageable...

I've never used any MAME proper before (unless you count the Raspberry Pi 3, or earlier RetroArch systems I ran). Maybe a couple one-off times through the years to try to run a single game. I need to use GroovyMAME specifically because my sole purpose in building a Windows PC with an ATI Radeon HD 5450 video card was so I can output 15khz to my Sony BVM/PVM CRT's.

I'm mostly using the built-in MAME GUI now for everything (don't know if it's the regular MAME one, or a special version of it the GroovyMAME people made), but had to do all my initial testing via command line and of course manually editing all the config files a couple hundred times (and the VMMaker program CRT Emudriver uses also edits those config files to load the correct switchres's as well).

[Bananamatic]

tried groovymame
feels the same as shmupmame v2.2
looks the same as shmupmame v2.2
at least dodonpachi savestates work

I would call it snake oil but it's free

[BrianC]

Doesn't groovymame need a certain type of monitor and graphics card to work correctly?