Sony BVM and composite video

[MikeXPose]

Hi all,

My lurking days are over as I need a little advice regarding my 'new' Sony BVM-20F1E. I finally managed to get hold of one of these beauties and I don't regret it at all. I've never seen my consoles looking so good. It's seriously amazing. It was all going well until I tried my NES and N64 (Non RGB). I got myself anow RCA to BNC adapter, plugged it into the green analogue input, switched to internal sync and immediately got a picture on the screen. Unfortunately, it'll only display in black and white. Does anybody know a way to fix this or have any ideas what to try?

Thanks in advance, Mike.

[Guspaz]

Do you have an NTSC or PAL decoder board installed? That monitor does not support composite video without a decoder board, and the decoder boards are not included by default. The board you need is the BKN-24N or BKN-25P for NTSC or PAL, although various other boards also include composite decoders.

Refer to the monitor's manual here: http://www.smecc.org/kkat-iptv/bvm20f1u ... ual[1].pdf (you'll need to copy/paste that link)

Here's a useful quote:

Assigning analog composite signals
It is possible to assign any composite signal to the analog signal input connectors of the BKM-20D/21D/22X, and any of the connectors of the BKM-24N/25P/26M/27T/28X/48X adaptors. However, at least one of the following decoder adaptors must be installed:

To assign NTSC signals:
BKM-21D/24N/27T
To assign PAL signals:
BKM-21D/25P/27T
To assign PAL-M signals:
BKM-26M
To assign SECAM signals:
BKM-27T

If you do have the appropriate boards, you may need to assign the input correctly in the appropriate menus.

EDIT: Basically, if you look at the card slots on the rear left of the monitor, and the only ones you see are the remote board and one labeled "ANALOG" with input/outputs for Red/Green/Blue/Sync, then you can't use composite, and will need to use RGB or component. The cards will have the model number on them, only the two stock cards don't have model numbers. So if you want to use NTSC composite video, and you don't have a card labeled 21D, 24N, or 27T, then you're out of luck.

[AndehX]

The BKM-21D is the most common decoder board you will find (I'd be suprised if your 20F1E doesn't have one) That should be able to decode your composite signals.

[MikeXPose]

Thanks very much for your help guys. I have two board in my BVM. One doesn't have a model number on it but it has 8 BNC ports (RGBS in and out) and is labeled analogue. The 2nd board is labeled Digital and Analogue and is model number BKM-20D. I guess I'm out of luck as it appears that neither of my boards can decode composite signals. =/

EDIT: Also, I have just noticed that the format option for composite is not selectable.

[mvsfan]

you should be able to buy another board that supports composite. thats what they are saying. Your not out of luck yet.

[Guspaz]

It looks like the BKM-21D goes for around $80 USD on eBay, but none of the other cards are as easy to find.

[AndehX]

Having said that, I tried my Wii in 480i 60hz last night, using composite, and it came up black and white too. And that was connected to my BKM-21D... Odd.

[Guspaz]

You need to actually set that specific input to composite in the menus.

[AndehX]

yeah, I did that lol.

[herbscottie]

Anyone come up with a fix? Mines flickering and black and white, think my bkm-21d adapter is bad?

[FinalBaton]

Isn't there a "VCR" setting that needs to be turned on for BVMs to display composite video? I remember seeing this mentionned a couple of time on here

Maybe that's it (although I don't know for sure if this will be the solution in your setup)

[Dochartaigh]

This is what I did to get my NTSC (USA) Nintendo/NES to display over composite, on the 21D card, on my BVM-D20F1U. The yellow composite RCA (with BNC adapter) was plugged into the first YPbPr input on the card which is usually for green (that's the 7th BNC counting from the top down).

Menu > Setup > Input Configuration > Format > Composite > NTSC
Choose Slot No for the card (number 4 for me)
Sync Mode INT
Screen Mode 4:3 - NORM

If the above doesn't work I would have to say either the input card or your D20F1U is broke.




And just to quickly highlight the quality difference between Composite and RGB signal (besides the obvious graphics, see mow much clearer the 'Game Start/Normal' text is - that right there really shows the benefit of RGB).

[Alf]

The 2nd board is labeled Digital and Analogue and is model number BKM-20D. I guess I'm out of luck as it appears that neither of my boards can decode composite signals. =/

I'm in the same boat, stuck with only stock cards. Currently the BKM-21D is really expensive, but the BKM-20D is not.
I'm reading some manuals which say the BKM-20D can in fact accept composite.
Can anyone confirm this?

[Dochartaigh]

I'm in the same boat, stuck with only stock cards. Currently the BKM-21D is really expensive, but the BKM-20D is not.
I'm reading some manuals which say the BKM-20D can in fact accept composite.
Can anyone confirm this?

I don't believe so. Here's the chart. 20D for composite signal says "Input possible when used with decoder adaptor"... that seems to mean (I'll post Sony's exact text below) that it'll only work if there's ANOTHER composite-compatible card which has the complete ability to use composite on it's own (i.e. they work together and you would need BOTH cards to be able to plug composite into the 20D).

"""You can configure an input and output connector panel
by installing any combination of adaptors in the input
option slots on the rear panel of the video monitor.
By combining adaptors of different types, you gain
access to a wider range of input signals than would be
possible with a single adaptor type.The input signals
made available by different combinations of adaptor
types are shown in the table below."""

[Alf]

Thank you for that very useful info. I guess it's big money time for the luxury of composite and dither.
Talk about irony.

[jd213]

You could also use a Retrotink 2X + HDMI to VGA converter + VGA to BNC cables for composite, although all that wouldn't be very cheap either I guess.

[Alf]

You could also use a Retrotink 2X + HDMI to VGA converter + VGA to BNC cables for composite, although all that wouldn't be very cheap either I guess.

Çables are not a problem, inputs on the monitor are.
You can't just connect a composite signal to an RGB/YPbPr input, no matter the connector shape.
But you can see a trailer by plugging the old yellow component RCA into Green. You get a b&w image because only luma info gets through.
In my case I also got some interference, but just look at that beautiful image. That's a 240p on BVM over composite. Everything is so soft and check out the light glow on his head. Looks like a real glow. Or how soft the clouds are. Them trademark SEGA clouds, man. Now go compare the RGB version with no dithering. It's ugly no matter how few TV lines you've got. It's not just nostalgia, games did in fact look better.



But you gotta play over composite.
You know, some people might say something like:"Why did you buy this RGB beast if you feed it crappy composite"?"
To them I would say:"Playing 16/32-bit games on CRT over RGB is like playing them on LCD but with added scanlines."
You need that smudgy composite crap to get proper image because games were made with that in mind. It's the only way to actually see what they should look like.
But no problem, this smudgines looks awesome on a professional RGB monitor because guess what...even without RGB, it's still an incredible screen. It makes composite look good which was probably not true for the people back in the day with their midrange consumer sets.

[jd213]

I meant using the Retrotink 2X to convert composite to 240p HDMI, then using an HDMI to VGA adapter to convert it to RGB.

[fernan1234]

^That's right, a RT2X in passthrough mode combined with a DAC is a great alternative. And in case you're wondering, yes, even though the input will be YPbPr or RGB, the picture will have the same composite characteristics and artifacts that you are looking to reproduce.

The decoder and filter in the RT2X-Pro is very good, not too far in quality from the one on these Sony BKM cards. The RT2X-Multiformat is fantastic, and better than the BKM card's, but sadly it is no longer in production. It would be overkill, but if the RT4K could have passthrough mode it would be even better

[Dochartaigh]

Çables are not a problem, inputs on the monitor are.
You can't just connect a composite signal to an RGB/YPbPr input, no matter the connector shape.
But you can see a trailer by plugging the old yellow component RCA into Green. You get a b&w image because only luma info gets through.
In my case I also got some interference, but just look at that beautiful image. That's a 240p on BVM over composite. Everything is so soft and check out the light glow on his head. Looks like a real glow. Or how soft the clouds are. Them trademark SEGA clouds, man. Now go compare the RGB version with no dithering. It's ugly no matter how few TV lines you've got. It's not just nostalgia, games did in fact look better.

Well... I guess this is ALL personal preference. I, like a lot of people (especially usually ones who purposely seek out and get PVM/BVM's) can't stand the blurry mess of RF or Composite, and vastly, no doubt whatsoever, VASTLY prefer the super sharp look you get on CRT like PVM and BVM's. This is why I run nothing on composite.

Also to note, about the nostalgia you're talking about, for me personally, growing up when NES was first released back in the day), IS in fact nice and heavy scanlines (i.e. blanking lines). I got those even over RF, on a very common (to my area... like 3+ aunts/uncles had this same low-end Sony as us... seemingly popular model) CRT back in the day. I mention scanlines, because to my eyes when I see a non-Sony (Aperture grille) set where the lines tend to blend together a LOT more (WAY less pronounced scanlines) - especially over Composite (and in fact MANY people say they NEVER remember seeing scanlines as a kid) seems to lean towards the blurry-nostalgic look some people, like you, want to get back to.... again, totally different than my own nostalgic memories which seem to be sharper than most remember - with nice and thick scanlines (again, even over crappy RF on a Sony!)...

You know, some people might say something like:"Why did you buy this RGB beast if you feed it crappy composite"?"
To them I would say:"Playing 16/32-bit games on CRT over RGB is like playing them on LCD but with added scanlines."
You need that smudgy composite crap to get proper image because games were made with that in mind. It's the only way to actually see what they should look like.

In the above you're actually discrediting the fact that MANY, MANY countries in the world (just not the USA for the most part) did in fact have CRTs with native RGB inputs on them (SCART connections, also same flavor is known as JP-21 in countries like Japan). Their sets could also have a higher resolution (PAL vs NTSC is 576 vs 480 lines... but at 50 of course).

Sure, having a RGB SCART cable actually bundled with the console started a little later for some countries (a quick google says it started with Saturn for most), but still.... blurry RF or Composite was NOT something you HAD to live with for a whole bunch of consoles in other countries (and they even offered official/optional RGB SCART cables for many earlier consoles). ...just not in the USA where your ONLY higher-end option was S-Video (which was still rare back in the day... took a bit for regular TV's to have that option... SO many only had coax/RF connector... was probably about 1995 --~10 years after NES-- when we got our first set with S-Video).

But no problem, this smudgines looks awesome on a professional RGB monitor because guess what...even without RGB, it's still an incredible screen. It makes composite look good which was probably not true for the people back in the day with their midrange consumer sets.

Actually... with me having the proper composite-compatible cards for multiple BVM's to see those in action over composite... I have to say I think the PVM's handle composite better. Taking an educated guess here, but maybe it's because PVM's were aimed more at semi-pro users (like a wedding filmographer, or person who only makes commercials or corporate promos or whatever) – and users like that might have tended to more commonly work over composite (seen this myself... I literally ahve about 300' of composite BNC cable I've gotten from places like that, it's ALL they seemed to use) --- instead of RGB or YPbPr (or SDI/HD-SDI) like the BVM users gravitated to... so maybe Sony made sure the PVM's could do the best with composite they could (better/different comb filter? I have no clue)...

When you go over to the BVM users (whose place was generally higher end: broadcast control rooms and mastering blockbuster movies, probably TV shows too) tended to work with higher quality signals from the get-go (mostly YPbPr actually... never seen RGB hooked up in a studio I got a BVM off of to date...) – so I don't want to say composite was an afterthought for Sony on their BVM's (god forbid, they're supposed to be the BEST at everything)... but maybe (again, total guess here) they just put their efforts best into those higher quality signals they thought the majority of their users would use with BVM's.

Even when I have a 800TVL BVM next to a 800TVL PVM, both running composite (and both white balanced and set to 100 nits with a colorimeter), I think the PVM looks a bit better. Switch to RGB on both and I lean towards the BVM slightly (again, personal preference plays a heavy role here... many people like the brighter look of some PVM's, which were better suited to normal lighting conditions... i.e. not like the BVM's which were usually always meant to be viewed in a very dim room... you should see some of these utter caves I walked into at studios in NYC when I was picking them up lol).

Anyway, again, TOTALLY personal preference here (and my personal experience with composite-handling of each type of CRT's --even though I've tested dozens and dozens of PVM's and BVM's-- could in fact just be my specific sets I was testing... I'm not a pro at calibrating these... and they ARE ancient now... so hard to do an apples-to-apples comparison, who knows what settings were different on each --or where age reared its ugly head-- to give me the assumption that PVM's handle composite a bit better than BVM's). Or maybe I'm just a RGB snob (probably the case lol).

^That's right, a RT2X in passthrough mode combined with a DAC is a great alternative. And in case you're wondering, yes, even though the input will be YPbPr or RGB, the picture will have the same composite characteristics and artifacts that you are looking to reproduce.

Not for composite, but I still have 3x S-Video devices in my setup (SVHS player I play VHS on, Nintendo 64 whose graphics are so atrocious I don't care enough to RGB mod it lol, and Gamecube since I play GC games on my Wii), where I convert S-Video to RGBS with a Kramer FC-4044 (which can convert composite as well, and convert either of those to YPbPr as well -- there's more modern and available options for this same conversion out there as well fyi). Can't lie, I think that Kramer does some magic in that conversion... really good comb filter / separation circuit or something? ...but this is another option like you mentioned. Sounds like a pretty easy solution to the OP's problem if an official composite-compatible BVM/BKM card is out of the running due to price and/or availability.

[Alf]

... seems to lean towards the blurry-nostalgic look some people, like you, want to get back to.... again, totally different than my own nostalgic memories which seem to be sharper than most remember - with nice and thick scanlines (again, even over crappy RF on a Sony!)...

Well no, I'm not saying games should look less sharp just because that's how they looked back then. That would be forcing nostalgia for nostalgia's sake and I'm not down with that. For example, I would much rather play retro games on an Xone joypad because, well..it's simply a better joypad Ok, except the 3-button Megadrive pad, that thing is a classic.
Rather, I was trying to say that there is a good reason composite gets bad rep, since most people had at best a midrange TV in their home, displaying weak image.

I'm not crazy, I would also prefer a more sharp image that RGB gives us. But I'm not willing to pay the price of losing dithering in the process because that concept was instrumental for 16 and 32-bit games who had hard times displaying many colors at once.
The crappy composite was like an artist's brush which helped create a beautiful canvas of effects such as color gradients, transparency, light reflections, softness and others. Instead, you are looking at checkerboard patterns on every step, it's like seeing the matrix or something. That's not a matter of personal taste anymore, it's just wrong. I mean, you can't even get a normal looking shield in Sonic over RGB. What good is all the sharpness then? If I wanted sharpness, I would go to my 4K OLED, run a scanlines filter and turn on BFI in Retroarch

Just look at how bad the N64 games look in high resolution. Who wants that, they are beautiful in their native resolution. Look at the trees in Mario Kart, look at the lines where polygons meet in Mario 64. What good is all that sharpness if games look worse?

In the above you're actually discrediting the fact that MANY, MANY countries in the world (just not the USA for the most part) did in fact have CRTs with native RGB inputs on them.

Sure, having a RGB SCART cable actually bundled with the console started a little later for some countries (a quick google says it started with Saturn for most), but still.... blurry RF or Composite was NOT something you HAD to live with for a whole bunch of consoles in other countries (and they even offered official/optional RGB SCART cables for many earlier consoles). ...j

You can have the input on your TV, you can have native support on your console and you can even bundle the official cable. All that doesn't change the fact that when these games were made, they were made for composite because that was the norm.

Actually... with me having the proper composite-compatible cards for multiple BVM's to see those in action over composite... I have to say I think the PVM's handle composite better.

Damn. Well, I sure do hope that's a personal preference and not the actual case because I would much rather have a slightly better composite than a slightly better RGB because RGB is great in itself while the composite needs all the help it can get.
Could you by any chance post some comparison pictures, that would be a really nice study,

Can't lie, I think that Kramer does some magic in that conversion... really good comb filter / separation circuit or something? ...but this is another option like you mentioned. Sounds like a pretty easy solution to the OP's problem if an official composite-compatible BVM/BKM card is out of the running due to price and/or availability.

^That's right, a RT2X in passthrough mode combined with a DAC is a great alternative. And in case you're wondering, yes, even though the input will be YPbPr or RGB, the picture will have the same composite characteristics and artifacts that you are looking to reproduce.

The decoder and filter in the RT2X-Pro is very good, not too far in quality from the one on these Sony BKM cards. The RT2X-Multiformat is fantastic, and better than the BKM card's, but sadly it is no longer in production. It would be overkill, but if the RT4K could have passthrough mode it would be even better

I meant using the Retrotink 2X to convert composite to 240p HDMI, then using an HDMI to VGA adapter to convert it to RGB.

I'm confused, could any of you explain what exactly you are talking about? I don't have any experience with scalers and I just thought the Retrotink was a simple analog to digital converter to hook up a retro console to a modern display.
But you talk about giving a composite-like picture over an RGB cable and I'm totally lost here

[Dochartaigh]

Well no, I'm not saying games should look less sharp just because that's how they looked back then.

How they looked to people in the USA, NOT to other countries which had stock/available RGB options for tons of consoles via RGB SCART to their SCART-equipped consumer TV's (which is literally like HALF of the entire world...)

Just look at how bad the N64 games look in high resolution. Who wants that, they are beautiful in their native resolution. Look at the trees in Mario Kart, look at the lines where polygons meet in Mario 64. What good is all that sharpness if games look worse?

When I look at N64, on a native CRT (consumer or otherwise) all I see is an absolutely horrible blurry mess (even with AA turned off on compatible game hacks/cheat-codes... don't have the hardware level mod to get rid of it even further because I dislike N64, period... except for Mario Kart lol). Just shows how different we think about things... not even on the same page lol (and that's fine! to each their own!).

You can have the input on your TV, you can have native support on your console and you can even bundle the official cable. All that doesn't change the fact that when these games were made, they were made for composite because that was the norm.

Again, "norm" for who? Only for USA people who were pretty much stuck on RF or composite, maybe S-Video later... So say from Super Famicom / Mega Drive forward LOTS of countries had a WAY sharper possible image than the USA available to them. And ummm... and who designed most of the games? Japanese, with JP-21 (RGB SCART) on so many normal consumer sets there... But I won't further get into this argument... it's already covered on a million different posts (most posting that picture from FFVII with the PVM...).

I'm confused, could any of you explain what exactly you are talking about? I don't have any experience with scalers and I just thought the Retrotink was a simple analog to digital converter to hook up a retro console to a modern display.
But you talk about giving a composite-like picture over an RGB cable and I'm totally lost here

You don't need a scaler of any type. There's little boxes which you can plug the yellow composite RCA into (and/or S-Video input too), and it'll convert that signal to RGB or Component/YPbPr. You can then plug that into the stock input card on your BVM which takes RGB or Component. Will not magically increase the quality of the composite signal to be better... just converts it to another type of signal, so it'll be nice and blurry like how you like

Only new one (although I did message a couple people to see if there's any other suggestions) I can think of off the top of my head right now is this. It's built for the OSSC to give that composite/S-video input, but can be used alone too:

https://kaicolabs.com/product/kaico-oss ... -on-board/

Expensive, but still probably $100 cheaper than a proper BKM card.

MANY other ones from years past too of course. Hard to find though - do research (especially about if it handles 240p properly - some convert to 480i) and setup your eBay alerts (that's how I got all my old converters... just took a long time).

[fernan1234]

I'm confused, could any of you explain what exactly you are talking about? I don't have any experience with scalers and I just thought the Retrotink was a simple analog to digital converter to hook up a retro console to a modern display.
But you talk about giving a composite-like picture over an RGB cable and I'm totally lost here

The Retrotink is what you said, but the 2X models also have a "passthrough" mode where the input is passed through the HDMI output without being scaled for modern displays, which of course won't work or look good with most modern displays, since it's the same original signal but just in digital form.

You can then grab that digital signal and convert it back to analog, for example using an HDMI to YPbPr converter (not scaler) or HDMI to VGA (then converted to RGBS), and then input that into your CRT monitor. A built-in composite input or BKM card on the back of the monitor does the same thing, converting (decoding) and filtering the composite signal into RGB which is what then drives the tube to display a picture, just without the extra step of going to digital and then back to analogue. And that's why the resulting picture won't just be composite-like, it will basically be the same thing as if using an input card.

[Alf]

The Retrotink is what you said, but the 2X models also have a "passthrough" mode where the input is passed through the HDMI output without being scaled for modern displays, which of course won't work or look good with most modern displays, since it's the same original signal but just in digital form.

You can then grab that digital signal and convert it back to analog, for example using an HDMI to YPbPr converter (not scaler) or HDMI to VGA (then converted to RGBS), and then input that into your CRT monitor. A built-in composite input or BKM card on the back of the monitor does the same thing, converting (decoding) and filtering the composite signal into RGB which is what then drives the tube to display a picture, just without the extra step of going to digital and then back to analogue. And that's why the resulting picture won't just be composite-like, it will basically be the same thing as if using an input card.

Great explanation, thanks. I had no idea it works that way and you just made my rabbit hole a bit deeper, haha.
I do believe I will be going with the BKM card, only to have as minimalistic setup as possible.

But now I'm wondering if taking the BVM-14F1 was a mistake since the seller was also offering a PVM-14L4. I really wasn't thinking about composite at the time..

[fernan1234]

But now I'm wondering if taking the BVM-14F1 was a mistake since the seller was also offering a PVM-14L4. I really wasn't thinking about composite at the time..

Nah, the BVM is a way better monitor than the PVM. The PVM makes things easier without needing extra input cards, but you'll get a much nicer picture on the BVM for both RGB and composite inputs. Hopefully s-video is not important for you because that will be even more expensive and difficult to find a card for.