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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:38 pm 


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Moogs wrote:
Akumajou Dracula X: Rondo of Blood.


Bal-Sagoth wrote:
I'd go for Rondo of Blood as well.


Ganelon wrote:
Chi no Rondo for non-shooters


Since the game's this popular, it'd be cool if we write its subtitle correctly from now on, right? "Chi no Ronde", much like "Senko no Ronde".
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 9:00 pm 


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The game's case says ロンド with the 血の 輪廻 part of the title. This fits with the use of musically themed Castlevania subtitles. Where are you getting Ronde from?

Edit - Yes @ Crunch... blasted IME. Fix'd.
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Last edited by nZero on Fri Oct 07, 2005 11:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 9:07 pm 



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[quote="nZero"]The game's case says


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 9:29 pm 


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nZero wrote:
The game's case says ロンド with the 血の輪極 part of the title. This fits with the use of musically themed Castlevania subtitles. Where are you getting Ronde from?


" ロンド " is the kana for "Ronde", a French word for "circle". While it's also the kana for the Italian "Rondo", the former fits better the kanji's meaning they used for this gikun: 輪廻 ("endless cycle of rebirth").
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 12:00 am 


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Recap wrote:
Since the game's this popular, it'd be cool if we write its subtitle correctly from now on, right? "Chi no Ronde", much like "Senko no Ronde".


Actually, I know that "Chi no Rondo" is correct. How? That's what the subtitles in the Castlevania: Chronicles interview say. And official sources > j00 8)


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 12:02 am 


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Recap wrote:
nZero wrote:
The game's case says ロンド with the 血の輪極 part of the title. This fits with the use of musically themed Castlevania subtitles. Where are you getting Ronde from?


" ロンド " is the kana for "Ronde", a French word for "circle". While it's also the kana for the Italian "Rondo", the former fits better the kanji's meaning they used for this gikun: 輪廻 ("endless cycle of rebirth").


Interesting, makes sense, I didn't think about the dropped vowel in ronde. The whole thing seems like some sort of weird pun, almost.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 12:41 am 


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Ganelon wrote:
Recap wrote:
Since the game's this popular, it'd be cool if we write its subtitle correctly from now on, right? "Chi no Ronde", much like "Senko no Ronde".


Actually, I know that "Chi no Rondo" is correct. How? That's what the subtitles in the Castlevania: Chronicles interview say. And official sources > j00 8)


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 12:58 am 


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nZero wrote:
Recap wrote:
" ロンド " is the kana for "Ronde", a French word for "circle". While it's also the kana for the Italian "Rondo", the former fits better the kanji's meaning they used for this gikun: 輪廻 ("endless cycle of rebirth").


Interesting, makes sense, I didn't think about the dropped vowel in ronde. The whole thing seems like some sort of weird pun, almost.

Every gikun is indeed. Actually, it could very well be alluding to "rondo" too, but only after refering to "ronde" for the kanji's meaning I mentioned. Also, "ronde" is a quite common word for Japanese, curiously. Anyways, I think that "ronde" also means something like a nocturne meeting with dance and music, but a French speaker will know it better than me.






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Actually, I know that "Chi no Rondo" is correct. How? That's what the subtitles in the Castlevania: Chronicles interview say. And official sources > j00

You can't be serious there. Everybody knows that Japanese do transliterations as they want, usually using straight wapuro methods without caring if its's the actual form or an existing word. If all you have is a subtitle in an interview, well, LOL.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 10:47 am 


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Recap wrote:
Every gikun is indeed. Actually, it could very well be alluding to "rondo" too, but only after refering to "ronde" for the kanji's meaning I mentioned. Also, "ronde" is a quite common word for Japanese, curiously. Anyways, I think that "ronde" also means something like a nocturne meeting with dance and music, but a French speaker will know it better than me.

in french, circle="cercle";
"rond" is not a circle but an adjective for the shape of a circle or sphere or whatever. "rond" = round
"ronde" is either the feminine form of the "rond" adjective, or a dance where people hold their hands in a circle and dance around a point.

the italian rondo interpretation sounds better to me.

edit:
Seven Force wrote:
chtimi wrote:
star parodia is much too easy.


That's completely true, but really besides the point. For me Star Parodia is an "experience" rather than a regular shmup.

IMO, it's the quintessential PCE game. It's a shmup, it's cute, has great music, japanese humour and it even has a playable PC-Engine character. Every good PCE collection needs to include this game, I think.

well, i agree with you, but i if he can only afford 2 games maybe it's different.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 11:38 am 


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Since the game's this popular, it'd be cool if we write its subtitle correctly from now on, right? "Chi no Ronde", much like "Senko no Ronde".


Hey, I wasn't being pretentious - I used the shoehorned English version! :P


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 1:13 pm 


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I just read the above posts, the name is "Rondo of Blood" (katakana reads "Rondo" too) and not Ronde of course, which refers to the musical form called "Rondo". It was the first Castlevania with a musical theme in its name. (like "Symphony of the Night", "Harmony of Dissonance", "Aria of Sorrow" etc.)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rondo


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 3:47 pm 


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Re: Chi No Rondo

I've never ever seen it spelled "Ronde" anywhere. The title most certainly refers to the italian dance, just like Senkou No Ronde refers to the French dance. (The Kanji 輪舞 "rinbu" also meaning a dance where people hold hands and form a circle, just like chtimi described).

Anyway, I'm sure both the Italian "Rondo" and French "Ronde" share the same stem, as does the English "round"/"around" and the German "rund", so either way the allusion to "mawaru"/"meguru" of the Kanji is still there.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:44 pm 


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Recap wrote:
Quote:
Actually, I know that "Chi no Rondo" is correct. How? That's what the subtitles in the Castlevania: Chronicles interview say. And official sources > j00

You can't be serious there. Everybody knows that Japanese do transliterations as they want, usually using straight wapuro methods without caring if its's the actual form or an existing word. If all you have is a subtitle in an interview, well, LOL.


That interview is the only official English reference we have of the title. IGA, who was involved in the creation of Chi no Rondo, also referred to the game as such in Japanese. Unless you find any official source in the contrary to support your guess, your idea will remain as purely fan conjecture.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:19 am 


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Ganelon wrote:
That interview is the only official English reference we have of the title. IGA, who was involved in the creation of Chi no Rondo, also referred to the game as such in Japanese. Unless you find any official source in the contrary to support your guess, your idea will remain as purely fan conjecture.


So you're one of those who write "Sengoku Blaede" 'cause it's the only "official reference" we have of this title? A random, eventual transliteration is anything but an "official reference" and, given Japanese' care about the stuff, you only should be attending to game logos for it.

Of course Igarashi also "referred to the game as such in Japanese", since "Ronde" and "Rondo" are exactly the same in Japanese, as I explained. I told you why it's "Ronde" - the kanji's meaning they use to write "Ronde" in the logo is closer to this word's original meaning ("cycle"-"circular"). Gikun usually implies that. It doesn't mean they couldn't be alluding to "Rondo" too.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 3:12 am 


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 3:41 am 


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Japanese transliterations by non-English Japanese folks mean crap since they can't translate worth a damn. Japanese transliterations by English-speaking&writing people are valid. Hell, why do we spell Spyro as "Spyro" and not "Su-Pyro" since Spyro breathes fire and pyro is a part of his name which is related to fire?

You're entirely guessing the part about the kanji and its direct relation to "circle." But since it looks like official sources aren't enough for you, I guess I'll have to add some logic as well:

The kanji of the title can refer to many sorts of repeating or circular meanings, such as "repeating," "reincarnation," or "circular." While you took the blatant "circle" as your obvious choice, a "rondo," which is a recurring section of music, has the same possiblity of being what they intended. What else would you call this aspect in music? "Rondo" is still the perfect fit. Hence, the title remains "Chi no Rondo."


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 3:48 am 


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Well, Recap, at least we have one semi-official rendering as "Rondo", whereas you have yet to show us any source at all where it is called "Ronde".

I checked ロンド in the Kojien, and here's what it says:

ロンド (rondo イタリア)
(音)一六世紀、古曲派時代の基本的な器楽形式の一。主題が同じ調で繰り返される間に異なる音想の副主題が挿入されるもの。ソナタや協奏曲・交響曲などの最終楽章に多い。回旋曲。輪舞曲。

My translation:

"Rondo ("rondo" Italian)
(music) A basic form of performance music of the 16th century Classical era. A piece which repeats a musical motive in the same key while a thematically different copy (variation) of the motive is inserted. Often found in the final movements of Sonatas, Concertos, Symphonies, etc. also: "Kaisenkyoku", "Rinbukyoku"."

BTW, there is no mention of a French "Ronde" in the Kojien. It does not seem to be a very common word. Also note the use of the word 輪舞 in Senkou no Ronde's title.


As you can see the musical structure of a Rondo fits the meaning of the Kanji 輪廻 very well, now add to that the fact that numerous other Castlevania games have a musical title (Nocturne, Concerto, Minuet, etc) and it should be obvious it's referring to the Italian musical term. Also, if you remember correctly, one of our resident Frenchmen already explained "ronde" does not exactly mean "circle" in French, but is also a musical piece.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 11:46 am 


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Seven Force wrote:
Also, if you remember correctly, one of our resident Frenchmen already explained "ronde" does not exactly mean "circle" in French, but is also a musical piece.


So if it's also a musical piece how doesn't it follow the musical pattern you mention? And it doesn't mean "circle" but it does "circular", if I recall.
The Kojien misses lots of foreign forms used by Japanese, as you likely know, anyways.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:34 am 


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I asked a Japanese about it. What they intended was indeed a DOUBLE meaning. RONDO (the musical form, not the dance) and 輪廻 (rinne) which means metempsychosis (samsara). The French word is "rondeau", by the way, which is pronounced the same way. "Ronde" is surely, definitely, positively 100% wrong.

Case closed.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 9:11 am 


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Ganelon wrote:
That interview is the only official English reference we have of the title. IGA, who was involved in the creation of Chi no Rondo, also referred to the game as such in Japanese. Unless you find any official source in the contrary to support your guess, your idea will remain as purely fan conjecture.


There is another (rather obscure) official English reference: the music CD "Castlevania Music Collection" that came with the limited UK SotN. There, Rondo is called "Akumajyo Dracula X ~Chi no Rinne~ (PC Engine)".

Celph wrote:
I asked a Japanese about it. What they intended was indeed a DOUBLE meaning. RONDO (the musical form, not the dance) and ?? (rinne) which means metempsychosis (samsara). The French word is "rondeau", by the way, which is pronounced the same way. "Ronde" is surely, definitely, positively 100% wrong.


Word.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 10:40 am 


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Exactly, any person familiar with Asian culture would immediately connect the characters rinne with the Buddhist concept of reincarnation. Yeah, with all the clues in place, it all makes sense now.

And that's cool, Turrican, I wasn't aware of that reference to the title. Do the titles of those CD tracks seem to be translated by non-English or English folk?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:10 am 


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Ganelon wrote:
Exactly, any person familiar with Asian culture would immediately connect the characters rinne with the Buddhist concept of reincarnation. Yeah, with all the clues in place, it all makes sense now.


That's why one of the most credited translation of the title is Demon Castle Dracula X - Reincarnation of Blood.

Ganelon wrote:
And that's cool, Turrican, I wasn't aware of that reference to the title. Do the titles of those CD tracks seem to be translated by non-English or English folk?


Probably English (UK) folks. In fact is much more a case of localization than mere translation: all the tracks from games that got a western release are named accordingly with the western name. For example:

5. Castlevania III - Dracula's Curse (not a generic "legend of demon castle")
13. Castlevania - The New Generation (not Vampire Killer or Bloodlines!)
14. Castlevania - Vampire's Kiss (again with the european name)

On the other hand, the handful japanese-only game tracks received a quite precise translation:

6. Akumajyo Special Boku Dracula-kun (FC)
11. Akumajyo Dracula (X68000)

Yeah, I was stunned too to see they didn't put even a typo in it. :wink: Although they seemed unaware that the MSX game received an european edition, and so they named the track Akumajyo Dracula (MSX).

Edit: err, and with this I believe the thread is ready for the OT forum.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:50 am 


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Ceph wrote:
I asked a Japanese about it. What they intended was indeed a DOUBLE meaning. RONDO (the musical form, not the dance) and 輪廻 (rinne) which means metempsychosis (samsara). The French word is "rondeau", by the way, which is pronounced the same way. "Ronde" is surely, definitely, positively 100% wrong.

Case closed.

Seems you have missed half the thread. I've already said that they intended a double (or triple) meaning, and I spoke about them. Both meanings are related or close, thoe. That's what gikun implies. It also seems that you ignore that "ronde" is also a French word. And seems also that you failed to realize that a Japanese, besides the author himself, is the worst person to ask about foreign transliterations and gikun stuff.




Ganelon wrote:
Exactly, any person familiar with Asian culture would immediately connect the characters rinne with the Buddhist concept of reincarnation. Yeah, with all the clues in place, it all makes sense now.


My second post:

" ロンド " is the kana for "Ronde", a French word for "circle". While it's also the kana for the Italian "Rondo", the former fits better the kanji's meaning they used for this gikun: 輪廻 ("endless cycle of rebirth").

So?
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:39 pm 


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Recap wrote:
" ??? " is the kana for "Ronde", a French word for "circle". While it's also the kana for the Italian "Rondo", the former fits better the kanji's meaning they used for this gikun: ?? ("endless cycle of rebirth").

So?


So, in order to mantain the dualism of significance, you must read it Chi no Rondo. Japanese will of course get the reincarnation part just by recognizing the kanji. If you use the furigana above rinne just as a translation of "circle" the music reference is missed.

Recap wrote:
Since the game's this popular, it'd be cool if we write its subtitle correctly from now on, right? "Chi no Ronde", much like "Senko no Ronde".

Seems you have missed half the thread. I've already said that they intended a double (or triple) meaning, and I spoke about them.


How you can say "Chi no Ronde", much like "Senko no Ronde" is beyond me, since it's clear that you're aware that the kanji are different.

And why do you say Rondo is incorrect when you seem to understand that there's a double meaning in the title?

Anyway, just by reading at it, you read the kana Rondo or either the kanji Rinne, that's simple.

If they really wanted to exclude any possibility they could have wrote "???" for French Ronde, don't you think? (<damn keyboard - I mean RO - N - DE)
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 1:29 pm 


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Turrican wrote:
So, in order to mantain the dualism of significance, you must read it Chi no Rondo. Japanese will of course get the reincarnation part just by recognizing the kanji. If you use the furigana above rinne just as a translation of "circle" the music reference is missed.

Actually, the meaning also implies "dance in circles", so the dualism is actually there.




Quote:
And why do you say Rondo is incorrect when you seem to understand that there's a double meaning in the title?

It's likely correct as a secondary meaning (reference) but incorrect if you're doing an accurate transliteration.




Quote:
Anyway, just by reading at it, you read the kana Rondo or either the kanji Rinne, that's simple.

But nope. Furigana always rules. That's the point of gikun, indeed - changing the established way you read a kanji. "Chi no Rinne" isn't correct, either.




Quote:
If they really wanted to exclude any possibility they could have wrote "???" for French Ronde, don't you think? (<damn keyboard - I mean RO - N - DE)

What do you mean, " ロンデ "? Never. The word just isn't pronounced that way.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 2:44 pm 


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Recap wrote:
Actually, the meaning also implies "dance in circles", so the dualism is actually there.

Quote:
It's likely correct as a secondary meaning (reference) but incorrect if you're doing an accurate transliteration.


We're talking, like you wrote, of three meanings:

1. Circle, round object. Also figurative for circle of life.
2. Rondo, the Italian term for a musical genre created between XVIII and XIX century (the period Dracula X takes place).
3. Ronde, French for dancing in circle hands in hands (our "girotondo", I guess).

You wrote: "the former [Ronde] fits better the kanji's meaning they used for this gikun: ?? ("endless cycle of rebirth").

But Raiden wrote:

in french, circle="cercle";
"rond" is not a circle but an adjective for the shape of a circle or sphere or whatever. "rond" = round
"ronde" is either the feminine form of the "rond" adjective, or a dance where people hold their hands in a circle and dance around a point.

Therefore Ronde doesn't fit any better than Rondo, and doesn't make a more accurate transliteration.

So, if you want to do accurate transliteration of the meaning (edit: translation of the meaning, as twe rightly points out), "Blood Rond" (Sang Rond, Round of Blood, Circle of Blood) would be better (closer to circle), but it would lose both the music and dance references.

The point is, you still have to show evidence that Japanese referred to the way less known French term for dance than to the internationally used in music Rondo term. Also, since the Italian Rondò comes from the French "rondeau" (the music is especially suited for ballets you know), of course the etimology is the same: therefore using Rondo recalls the idea of circle just as much as using Ronde (Try to search Google images for ronde and rondo and you'll see pretty much the same amount of circular random items). But since the ronde, from what I understand, doesn't have a direct musical meaning, the important musical theme would be lost in your transliteration.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:28 pm 


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Turrican wrote:
So, if you want to do accurate transliteration of the meaning, "Blood Rond" (Sang Rond, Round of Blood, Circle of Blood) would be better (closer to circle), but it would lose both the music and dance references.

You fail to see that, while there's only one correct way to read and write a title, there usually are several ways to translate it, and all of them may be perfectly valid, especially if it's a gikun case like this one.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:55 pm 


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Moogs wrote:
Everyone's just going to continue to call it "Rondo of Blood" or "Chi no Rondo," anyway.

I just call it "that really expensive Castlevania game," heh heh. Or "TREC-G" for short, if you will.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:57 pm 


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Turrican wrote:
The correct spelling and write romanji form is "Akumajo Dracula X - Chi no Rondo". Among the several ways to translate Rondo, there might be yours. Writing Rondo as the furigana say is the best way


So then why you write "Dracula" and not "Dorakyura"? Or "Akumajo" instead of "Akumajou"? Foreign words NEED their original spelling, not the one imposed by the kana. Have you actually studied some Japanese to know what you're saying on this thread? This is starting to look as another one of your usual let's-troll-since-Recap's-there moments.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:00 pm 


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Recap wrote:
Foreign words NEED their original spelling, not the one imposed by the kana.


Of course they need it, and you still haven't provided any evidence that the foreign word in question is ronde instead of Rondo.
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