NESRGB New Firmware Palette Updates:

[austin532]

Pretty sure most tv's were not calibrated for 65k and were closer to a neutral setting. 93K was not just the Japanese standard but was "the" gaming standard up until recently. The whites look better for retro games at that temperature.

[FBX]

I live in America and I think all the crts I used in the 80's and 90's were closer to D93. I didn't even know what warm color temperature was until the HD era. I keep my PVM's and BVM's at D93 because that's exactly how I remember the color in retro games.

Ah okay. I was wondering about this, because the PVM I got was set to D65.

Edit: According to a NESdev thread I was reading, D65 was the US NTSC standard since the 1970s.

[yxkalle]

Hey FBX, which color temperature looks the best to you?

[austin532]

For movies and tv but I'm pretty sure games were designed at 93k as that was the standard temperature for monitors at the time.

[Ripthorn]

Just installed the new palettes, a very easy process.

I'm loving the PVM style palette, thanks FBX
I hope combination PVM Style >> Original Hardware >> PC10 is available in the final pack.

[nakedarthur]

65K is part of the NTSC standard upon which NES palette is based. 93k did not show up in consumer TVs until early 2000s.

[Ikaruga11]

So how long was 9300 Kelvin the standard for video games?

[FBX]

65K is part of the NTSC standard upon which NES palette is based. 93k did not show up in consumer TVs until early 2000s.

However, D93 was the standard in Japan. So if I understand what I've been reading on NESDev correctly, Japanese were seeing the colors differently than Americans were.

Hey FBX, which color temperature looks the best to you?

To be honest, I like the warmer look of D65. And this probably explains earlier when I tried to match the warmth of the greys in the PVM Style palette and everyone went ape saying it was way off. Turns out they were used to D93 while I prefer D65, because that's exactly the way it looked on my NES back in the '80s.

[austin532]

However, D93 was the standard in Japan. So if I understand what I've been reading on NESDev correctly, Japanese were seeing the colors differently than Americans were.

And seeing how the majority of NES games were made in Japan this makes sense.

[yxkalle]

Wikipedia:
"D65 corresponds roughly to the average midday light in Western Europe / Northern Europe (comprising both direct sunlight and the light diffused by a clear sky), hence it is also called a daylight illuminant."

AVSForum:
"The Japanese do indeed set a very high colour temperature, often around 9200K, as this helps the oriental skin tone to look more natural on screen (it also makes whites bluer and therefore 'cleaner')"

Is it safe to assume that most TV's sold in Europe and America were using D65 as reference?

[pyroman512]

FBX,

Do you think your palettes will make their way to HiDef NES? Not sure if this was previously mentioned in this thread or not.

[FBX]

FBX,

Do you think your palettes will make their way to HiDef NES? Not sure if this was previously mentioned in this thread or not.

Probably too son to say at this point. I need these to settle for a while, and then it would be fan interest that really drives the support for other digital NES solutions.

Right now I'm just itching to get the new firmwares back from Tim. I want to put this sucker to bed and be done with it for the time being.

[tjstogy]

Can we get some comparison pictures ?

[FBX]

Cool, Tim just came through with the new firmware package:

http://www.firebrandx.com/downloads/nes ... 2-2017.zip

All 10 variations offered!

Yay!

[gojira54]

Updated to option 5
Thanks for this!

[copy]

Nice. FBX and Tim deliver again.

[FBX]

Just so everyone knows, I'm not calling the Original Hardware project done just yet by any means, but I am going to let the current iteration sit for a couple months while I take notes during extensive cross-referencing. There are some decisions we'll have to vote on considering specific NTSC NES colors that are outside the range of RGB. For example is the SMB sky color. Right now with Composite Direct, you get a slightly purple tinged sky, and with the Original Hardware palette, a more light blue tone is offered. Neither is the same as the NTSC color, because the blue channel on NTSC is much more intense than is possible in the RGB range. So it comes down to a choice.

I'm also taking notes on entries that could still be slightly improved. Once I'm satisfied on the final list of adjustments, I'll send a new commission to Tim in a couple months. Keep in mind of course these are very minor tweaks, so nothing should stop anyone from enjoying the current palette as is.

[Yamato]

PC10 is the "RGB" option in Nestopia.
Natural is the "YUV" option in Nestopia.
Improved is the "FCEUX" palette.

None of which come close to NTSC NES colors. However, I've been told "YUV" is closer to PAL colors.

I've been playing around with Composite PAL colors a lot lately. I just wanted to confirm this one more time!

To my surprise my recent direct capture results were very close to the Nestopia YUV palette (which was the stock natural palette before Tim started using Unsaturated-V6 in late 2016). Although I haven't finished the palette yet, I can already say that the differences to YUV are going to be rather small. None of those colors is absolutely "wrong" in terms of hue.

Although when you compare the colors side by side you'll notice that those yellow tones (the darkest ones were used for the Metroid title screen) should have just a slight nuance more red in them. So while those yellow tones were more "olive" with NTSC Composite they were really a little more "yellow" with PAL Composite. Also the warm red tones and the lighter colors in general are slightly "washed out" with PAL composite. This would have to be corrected too if you want the most authentic experience.

So if anyone here happens to be enthusiastic about PAL colors (like me) or comes from a PAL region and wants the colors that he or she remembers, I would just stick with the YUV palette for now. It's already very good but I plan to do an even better Composite PAL palette in the near future.

But don't forget: The original NES colors were NTSC, so FBX's recent palettes are the way to go if you want the most authentic original NTSC colors!

[leonk]

Just put "original hardware" on my nesrgb and fed it into my PVM.

Congrats. it looks perfect! Just the way I remember it.

If anything, the "pop" stock nesrgb and hidef nes give are now gone. I know the colors are wrong, but I kinda like the pop. It brings new fresh life into this old console. FBX. You just managed to tone it down to original colors.

[yxkalle]

Nice that the Analogue NT mini supports custom palettes, makes me want one even more.

[FBX]

Nice that the Analogue NT mini supports custom palettes, makes me want one even more.

Yeah, and it appears to support analog RGB, which means it would make for the perfect test station on NES palettes. I may have to get one for that reason alone.

[austin532]

Just when you think you're done with the palettes they keep bringing you back for more. The more accurate the better though even if it makes a 1% difference.

[PascalP]

Just installed the latest palettes on my NESRGB (option 5) and I must say, the "Original Hardware (FBX)" looks absolutely beautiful on my Pioneer PDP-V402 and the composite direct being a close 2nd.

Will drag out one of my CRT monitors from storage as soon as possible to test on them!


Thanks FBX!

[FBX]

Just installed the latest palettes on my NESRGB (option 5) and I must say, the "Original Hardware (FBX)" looks absolutely beautiful on my Pioneer PDP-V402 and the composite direct being a close 2nd.

Will drag out one of my CRT monitors from storage as soon as possible to test on them!


Thanks FBX!

Thanks! Yeah it's looking pretty sweet thus far, but I know I can make it even better. I really need to get an Nt Mini going so I can polish off the few critical colors in the palette I'm not quite happy with. I want to get it down to where only the out-of-range colors are left to be dealt with, and we have a reasonable approximation of those. Here are the critical colors I'd like another shot at highlighted on the palette grid:



The two flesh tones just need the green value slightly lowered I believe. The rest of the highlighted entries are colors that fall outside the range of RGB, and so an approximation must be made. Now I've written to the Analogue Nt web site in the hopes they can loan me a unit for working on this project. If not, I will have to rely on donations and hope I get enough to fund the purchase of one. As it is right now $450 is a bit too expensive for my budget. I've already spent at least that much getting to this point.

[that1crzywhtguy]

Hello!

I just wanted to take a second to express my sincere gratitude. Just loaded up palette set 10 for use on my PVM, and it looks bang on.

Thanks again.

[nakedarthur]

Nice that the Analogue NT mini supports custom palettes, makes me want one even more.

Yeah, and it appears to support analog RGB, which means it would make for the perfect test station on NES palettes. I may have to get one for that reason alone.

You can achieve the same thing with a Raspeberry Pi for a fraction of the cost. You just need a Gert VGA 666 output for $8 and a VGA to BNC cable for another $8. Arcade forge also has a SCART adapter coming that's a little more expensive but you can use an ordinary scart cable if you already have one.

[splits]

I just tried loading firmwares 5 and 10 (from the most recent DL link) onto my front loader, and I noticed something strange.

When I switch between PVM and Original Hardware on firmware 10, I notice a clear difference between the two.

However, when I switch between these using firmware 5, I can barely tell that there has been a change.

I am looking at both on a digital display through a Framemeister.

So, it looks like one of these two firmwares is messed up. How close are those two palettes supposed to be?

BTW: I tried this comparison because I wanted to verify the order of the palettes--FBX said they might be switched. At least for firmware 10, my NESRGB switches through the palettes in the order in the text file (I know this because PC10 is hard to mistake). FBX, it could be that the wiring of your switch is mixed up.

[xadox]

Since I am using the NES only on real CRT/PVM I have choosen Palette Set 1.
The Original Hardware (FBX) is looking realy great

[FBX]

BTW: I tried this comparison because I wanted to verify the order of the palettes--FBX said they might be switched. At least for firmware 10, my NESRGB switches through the palettes in the order in the text file (I know this because PC10 is hard to mistake). FBX, it could be that the wiring of your switch is mixed up.

As I mentioned, it entirely depends on how each toggle switch is hooked up. Yurkie did mine, and palette slot #3 happens to be in the middle toggle position, while slot #2 is on the right (with slot #1 on the left). I made it a point to mentioned this in that I may not be the only with with this weird toggle switch wiring job, especially since I got my mod from an established source.

So, it looks like one of these two firmwares is messed up.

Here's the source code for option #5:

Code: Select all

table colour_lookup[] => red[6..0], green[6..0], blue[6..0];

-- Palette 3: Composite Direct (FBX).pal
	0	=>	50,50,50;
	1	=>	0,9,62;
	2	=>	12,0,71;
	3	=>	27,0,65;
	4	=>	43,0,46;
	5	=>	45,0,12;
	6	=>	39,2,0;
	7	=>	28,12,0;
	8	=>	14,24,0;
	9	=>	0,30,0;
	10	=>	0,32,0;
	11	=>	0,29,11;
	12	=>	0,23,42;
	13	=>	0,0,0;
	14	=>	0,0,0;
	15	=>	0,0,0;
	16	=>	87,87,87;
	17	=>	12,39,100;
	18	=>	35,23,113;
	19	=>	53,15,107;
	20	=>	73,13,87;
	21	=>	79,13,47;
	22	=>	76,25,0;
	23	=>	61,37,0;
	24	=>	45,51,0;
	25	=>	19,61,0;
	26	=>	0,65,0;
	27	=>	0,61,31;
	28	=>	0,55,69;
	29	=>	0,0,0;
	30	=>	0,0,0;
	31	=>	0,0,0;
	32	=>	127,127,127;
	33	=>	50,84,127;
	34	=>	71,68,127;
	35	=>	91,59,127;
	36	=>	112,55,127;
	37	=>	119,54,98;
	38	=>	120,64,53;
	39	=>	108,76,22;
	40	=>	92,90,5;
	41	=>	65,101,6;
	42	=>	45,107,31;
	43	=>	37,104,63;
	44	=>	38,99,101;
	45	=>	38,38,38;
	46	=>	0,0,0;
	47	=>	0,0,0;
	48	=>	127,127,127;
	49	=>	99,114,127;
	50	=>	108,108,127;
	51	=>	116,104,127;
	52	=>	124,103,127;
	53	=>	127,102,120;
	54	=>	127,106,101;
	55	=>	124,111,88;
	56	=>	118,117,82;
	57	=>	107,122,82;
	58	=>	98,124,92;
	59	=>	95,123,105;
	60	=>	95,120,120;
	61	=>	92,92,92;
	62	=>	0,0,0;
	63	=>	0,0,0;

-- Palette 2: Original Hardware (FBX).pal
	64	=>	53,54,53;
	65	=>	0,9,62;
	66	=>	15,0,69;
	67	=>	29,0,62;
	68	=>	43,0,46;
	69	=>	45,0,12;
	70	=>	39,6,0;
	71	=>	28,15,0;
	72	=>	16,24,0;
	73	=>	0,30,0;
	74	=>	0,32,0;
	75	=>	0,29,15;
	76	=>	0,23,42;
	77	=>	0,0,0;
	78	=>	0,0,0;
	79	=>	0,0,0;
	80	=>	92,94,92;
	81	=>	12,39,100;
	82	=>	35,23,113;
	83	=>	58,15,107;
	84	=>	73,15,86;
	85	=>	79,18,47;
	86	=>	75,28,0;
	87	=>	61,40,0;
	88	=>	45,51,0;
	89	=>	19,61,0;
	90	=>	0,63,0;
	91	=>	0,60,33;
	92	=>	0,55,69;
	93	=>	0,0,0;
	94	=>	0,0,0;
	95	=>	0,0,0;
	96	=>	127,127,127;
	97	=>	52,87,127;
	98	=>	75,76,127;
	99	=>	91,67,127;
	100	=>	113,60,127;
	101	=>	121,60,99;
	102	=>	122,71,55;
	103	=>	110,84,25;
	104	=>	94,91,6;
	105	=>	68,104,10;
	106	=>	48,109,36;
	107	=>	39,107,67;
	108	=>	40,101,103;
	109	=>	40,42,40;
	110	=>	0,0,0;
	111	=>	0,0,0;
	112	=>	127,127,127;
	113	=>	102,117,127;
	114	=>	111,113,127;
	115	=>	119,109,127;
	116	=>	125,107,126;
	117	=>	126,107,123;
	118	=>	126,110,104;
	119	=>	125,116,91;
	120	=>	121,120,84;
	121	=>	109,125,84;
	122	=>	101,127,94;
	123	=>	97,125,108;
	124	=>	98,123,123;
	125	=>	95,96,95;
	126	=>	0,0,0;
	127	=>	0,0,0;

-- Palette 1: PVM Style (FBX).pal
	128	=>	52,52,50;
	129	=>	0,11,58;
	130	=>	20,0,62;
	131	=>	31,0,54;
	132	=>	43,0,43;
	133	=>	47,0,9;
	134	=>	41,13,0;
	135	=>	29,18,0;
	136	=>	21,24,0;
	137	=>	10,29,0;
	138	=>	0,31,0;
	139	=>	0,29,15;
	140	=>	0,24,40;
	141	=>	0,0,0;
	142	=>	0,0,0;
	143	=>	0,0,0;
	144	=>	92,92,90;
	145	=>	10,41,92;
	146	=>	38,22,109;
	147	=>	61,15,100;
	148	=>	76,12,78;
	149	=>	78,17,34;
	150	=>	80,31,0;
	151	=>	70,42,0;
	152	=>	50,54,0;
	153	=>	22,60,0;
	154	=>	0,64,0;
	155	=>	0,62,33;
	156	=>	0,60,69;
	157	=>	0,0,0;
	158	=>	0,0,0;
	159	=>	0,0,0;
	160	=>	127,127,127;
	161	=>	52,84,127;
	162	=>	77,75,127;
	163	=>	97,69,125;
	164	=>	117,62,125;
	165	=>	121,67,90;
	166	=>	120,76,54;
	167	=>	115,89,19;
	168	=>	107,100,2;
	169	=>	72,111,3;
	170	=>	50,114,30;
	171	=>	34,113,62;
	172	=>	36,106,108;
	173	=>	37,37,35;
	174	=>	0,0,0;
	175	=>	0,0,0;
	176	=>	127,127,127;
	177	=>	105,117,127;
	178	=>	113,113,127;
	179	=>	121,108,127;
	180	=>	124,105,127;
	181	=>	124,108,117;
	182	=>	125,111,92;
	183	=>	124,116,77;
	184	=>	121,121,70;
	185	=>	105,125,72;
	186	=>	92,126,84;
	187	=>	87,125,101;
	188	=>	101,121,121;
	189	=>	95,95,92;
	190	=>	0,0,0;
	191	=>	0,0,0;

end table;

And here's the code for Option #10:

Code: Select all

table colour_lookup[] => red[6..0], green[6..0], blue[6..0];

-- Palette 3: PVM Style (FBX).pal
	0	=>	52,52,50;
	1	=>	0,11,58;
	2	=>	20,0,62;
	3	=>	31,0,54;
	4	=>	43,0,43;
	5	=>	47,0,9;
	6	=>	41,13,0;
	7	=>	29,18,0;
	8	=>	21,24,0;
	9	=>	10,29,0;
	10	=>	0,31,0;
	11	=>	0,29,15;
	12	=>	0,24,40;
	13	=>	0,0,0;
	14	=>	0,0,0;
	15	=>	0,0,0;
	16	=>	92,92,90;
	17	=>	10,41,92;
	18	=>	38,22,109;
	19	=>	61,15,100;
	20	=>	76,12,78;
	21	=>	78,17,34;
	22	=>	80,31,0;
	23	=>	70,42,0;
	24	=>	50,54,0;
	25	=>	22,60,0;
	26	=>	0,64,0;
	27	=>	0,62,33;
	28	=>	0,60,69;
	29	=>	0,0,0;
	30	=>	0,0,0;
	31	=>	0,0,0;
	32	=>	127,127,127;
	33	=>	52,84,127;
	34	=>	77,75,127;
	35	=>	97,69,125;
	36	=>	117,62,125;
	37	=>	121,67,90;
	38	=>	120,76,54;
	39	=>	115,89,19;
	40	=>	107,100,2;
	41	=>	72,111,3;
	42	=>	50,114,30;
	43	=>	34,113,62;
	44	=>	36,106,108;
	45	=>	37,37,35;
	46	=>	0,0,0;
	47	=>	0,0,0;
	48	=>	127,127,127;
	49	=>	105,117,127;
	50	=>	113,113,127;
	51	=>	121,108,127;
	52	=>	124,105,127;
	53	=>	124,108,117;
	54	=>	125,111,92;
	55	=>	124,116,77;
	56	=>	121,121,70;
	57	=>	105,125,72;
	58	=>	92,126,84;
	59	=>	87,125,101;
	60	=>	101,121,121;
	61	=>	95,95,92;
	62	=>	0,0,0;
	63	=>	0,0,0;

-- Palette 2: PC-10.pal
	64	=>	54,54,54;
	65	=>	0,18,73;
	66	=>	0,0,109;
	67	=>	54,36,109;
	68	=>	73,0,54;
	69	=>	91,0,54;
	70	=>	91,18,0;
	71	=>	73,36,0;
	72	=>	54,36,0;
	73	=>	18,36,0;
	74	=>	0,54,18;
	75	=>	0,73,0;
	76	=>	0,36,36;
	77	=>	0,0,0;
	78	=>	0,0,0;
	79	=>	0,0,0;
	80	=>	91,91,91;
	81	=>	0,54,109;
	82	=>	0,36,127;
	83	=>	73,0,127;
	84	=>	91,0,127;
	85	=>	127,0,73;
	86	=>	127,0,0;
	87	=>	109,54,0;
	88	=>	73,54,0;
	89	=>	18,73,0;
	90	=>	0,73,0;
	91	=>	0,91,54;
	92	=>	0,73,73;
	93	=>	18,18,18;
	94	=>	0,0,0;
	95	=>	0,0,0;
	96	=>	127,127,127;
	97	=>	54,91,127;
	98	=>	73,73,127;
	99	=>	109,54,127;
	100	=>	127,0,127;
	101	=>	127,54,127;
	102	=>	127,73,0;
	103	=>	127,91,0;
	104	=>	109,109,0;
	105	=>	54,109,0;
	106	=>	0,127,0;
	107	=>	36,127,109;
	108	=>	0,127,127;
	109	=>	36,36,36;
	110	=>	0,0,0;
	111	=>	0,0,0;
	112	=>	127,127,127;
	113	=>	91,109,127;
	114	=>	109,91,127;
	115	=>	127,91,127;
	116	=>	127,73,127;
	117	=>	127,91,91;
	118	=>	127,109,73;
	119	=>	127,127,36;
	120	=>	127,127,54;
	121	=>	91,127,36;
	122	=>	73,127,54;
	123	=>	36,127,109;
	124	=>	73,109,127;
	125	=>	73,73,73;
	126	=>	0,0,0;
	127	=>	0,0,0;

-- Palette 1: Original Hardware (FBX).pal
	128	=>	53,54,53;
	129	=>	0,9,62;
	130	=>	15,0,69;
	131	=>	29,0,62;
	132	=>	43,0,46;
	133	=>	45,0,12;
	134	=>	39,6,0;
	135	=>	28,15,0;
	136	=>	16,24,0;
	137	=>	0,30,0;
	138	=>	0,32,0;
	139	=>	0,29,15;
	140	=>	0,23,42;
	141	=>	0,0,0;
	142	=>	0,0,0;
	143	=>	0,0,0;
	144	=>	92,94,92;
	145	=>	12,39,100;
	146	=>	35,23,113;
	147	=>	58,15,107;
	148	=>	73,15,86;
	149	=>	79,18,47;
	150	=>	75,28,0;
	151	=>	61,40,0;
	152	=>	45,51,0;
	153	=>	19,61,0;
	154	=>	0,63,0;
	155	=>	0,60,33;
	156	=>	0,55,69;
	157	=>	0,0,0;
	158	=>	0,0,0;
	159	=>	0,0,0;
	160	=>	127,127,127;
	161	=>	52,87,127;
	162	=>	75,76,127;
	163	=>	91,67,127;
	164	=>	113,60,127;
	165	=>	121,60,99;
	166	=>	122,71,55;
	167	=>	110,84,25;
	168	=>	94,91,6;
	169	=>	68,104,10;
	170	=>	48,109,36;
	171	=>	39,107,67;
	172	=>	40,101,103;
	173	=>	40,42,40;
	174	=>	0,0,0;
	175	=>	0,0,0;
	176	=>	127,127,127;
	177	=>	102,117,127;
	178	=>	111,113,127;
	179	=>	119,109,127;
	180	=>	125,107,126;
	181	=>	126,107,123;
	182	=>	126,110,104;
	183	=>	125,116,91;
	184	=>	121,120,84;
	185	=>	109,125,84;
	186	=>	101,127,94;
	187	=>	97,125,108;
	188	=>	98,123,123;
	189	=>	95,96,95;
	190	=>	0,0,0;
	191	=>	0,0,0;

end table;

[FBX]

Nice that the Analogue NT mini supports custom palettes, makes me want one even more.

Yeah, and it appears to support analog RGB, which means it would make for the perfect test station on NES palettes. I may have to get one for that reason alone.

You can achieve the same thing with a Raspeberry Pi for a fraction of the cost. You just need a Gert VGA 666 output for $8 and a VGA to BNC cable for another $8. Arcade forge also has a SCART adapter coming that's a little more expensive but you can use an ordinary scart cable if you already have one.

Already went down that road and I prefer to use an actual NES machine with RGB output as opposed to trying to run an emulator with menu bars.. It was much too difficult to try and cycle menu options and whatnot in a 240p window, whereas with the Nt Mini, everything can be loaded from an SD card. That's exactly what I need for running custom palette files.