NESRGB New Firmware Palette Updates:

[Link83]

Thanks for the replay FBX

After your reply I decided to do some investigating, and it looks like I can now answer some of my own questions However I now have even more questions!

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-Has anyone performed a direct capture of the PAL PPU Composite palette values, to see if it differs in any way from the NTSC PPU values? (Especially since NTSC = Never Twice the Same Color)

This has been done and apparently the PAL PPU does differ from the NTSC PPU:-

The PAL NES's colorspace is rotated by 15° relative to the NTSC NES, and so provides a comparatively nice red (+75°), yellow (+15°), blue (-165°) and cyan (-105°), at the cost of less satisfying purple and green. The lack of control over saturation is still unfortunate.

In addition two of the color tint bits are swapped:-
http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/NTSC_video

Note that on the Dendy and PAL NES, the green and red bits swap meaning.

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-Are the PlayChoice-10 palette values based on a direct capture from the original RGB PPU? If not how can we be sure they are 100% accurate?

I believe the RGB PPU values were direct captured by Chris Covell:-
https://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php ... 70#p124935

Sorry, I don't have a PNG handy anymore. I captured the RGB PPU's values from my Famicom Titler (using direct RGB input and a video capture card), and its PPU is identical to the Playchoice-10. The RGB PPU is a little different and inadequate colour-wise compared to the composite PPU, as you can see. You can use this palette for whatever project you have, but I wouldn't recommend it...

Whats interesting is that the RGB PPU stores its palette values in a ROM:-
http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/PPU_palettes#2C02

The 2C03, 2C04, and 2C05, on the other hand, all output analog red, green, blue, and sync (RGBS) signals. The sync signal contains horizontal and vertical sync pulses in the same format as an all-black composite signal. Each of the three video channels uses a 3-bit DAC driven by a look-up table in a 64x9-bit ROM inside the PPU.

So at least in theory we could get 100% accurate RGB PPU values without using direct capture. However I have been unable to find a dump of the PPU ROM, and the wiki isnt clear if the palette table listed below is from direct capture or ROM dump.

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-Has anyone checked the 'official' palette values Nintendo uses in NES emulators for the Wii, Wii U, 3DS, and soon NES Mini Classic?

I knew the Wii U VC had filters, but had no idea that even the Wii and 3DS NES VC titles were filtered/darker too
I eventually found this thread:-
https://gbatemp.net/threads/ripping-the ... te.371706/
It has an 'undarkened' palette captured from the 3DS NES VC, which IMO actually looks quite good!
I think it would be interesting if this 'official' palette could perhaps replace the FCEUX palette (Perhaps even the NES Mini Classic palette could replace FCEUX if it turns out to be any good)

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I also came across this post:-
https://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php ... 45#p161631

Anyway, aren't all of our modern NTSC CRT televisions and capture cards defaulting to the 1987 NTSC standard (SMPTE C) instead of the 1953 standard? The RGB primaries and white point both changed with the 1987 standard!

Super Mario Bros. and Zelda 2 both predate the 1987 standard. Japan used NTSC, just like North America. When the designers were making them, they would be using TVs designed and built before the 1987 standard. Maybe the sky is only violet if it's displayed on a TV from 1987 or later?

I was completely unaware that the NTSC standard changed in 1987! Since the Famicom/NES predates this change, shouldnt we be using the original 1953 standard?

In addition, according to Wikipedia:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTSC#SMPTE_C

Japanese NTSC never changed primaries and whitepoint to SMPTE "C", continuing to use the 1953 NTSC primaries and whitepoint.

So if we consider that all first party Nintendo games were developed in Japan, then I guess we really should be using the 1953 NTSC standard.

Does Unsaturated V6 use the 1953 or 1987 NTSC standard? If it uses the 1987 standard I would be curious to know how different Unsaturated V6 would look converted to the 1953 standard.

[bobrocks95]

What's the source on that Undarkened palette? I don't remember seeing an option to make 3DS NES games brighter.

[libwilliam]

I reached out to the folks at HD Retrovision and they were kind enough to post the PCB information online for the 'NESRGB JTAG Adapter' that FirebrandX posted pictures of. You can find more information about the PCB (including a link to order the bare PCB) at the following link.

http://www.hdretrovision.com/free-stuff

Thank you again HD Retrovision!

[yxkalle]

I knew the Wii U NES VC had filters but had no idea that even the Wii and 3DS NES VC titles were filtered/darker too
I eventually found this thread:-
https://gbatemp.net/threads/ripping-the ... te.371706/
Its has an 'undarkened' palette captured from the 3DS NES VC, which IMO actually looks quite good!
I think it would be interesting if this 'official' palette could perhaps replace the FCEUX palette (Or perhaps even the NES Mini Classic palette could replace FCEUX if it turns out to be any good)

I took the Wii palette from that page and lightened it up so that entry 0x30 mapped to white (all channels set to 255, was 182), using some custom tools and GIMP 2. I left entry 0x1D, 2D and 3D alone though, as they seemed bright enough already.

R=Original Wii VC palette&Brightened paletteR=[img]http://i.imgur.com/b8fgdRc.png[/img][img]http://i.imgur.com/szTdqZx.png[/img][img]http://i.imgur.com/RKsTuki.png[/img][img]http://i.imgur.com/jrTblVS.png[/img][img]http://i.imgur.com/Q29Nrji.png[/img][img]http://i.imgur.com/LWsTCvO.png[/img][img]http://i.imgur.com/m8LWXW2.png[/img][img]http://i.imgur.com/GMZk0l5.png[/img][img]http://i.imgur.com/fksgEPn.png[/img][img]http://i.imgur.com/PDqkpaw.png[/img][img]http://i.imgur.com/OUIXoxR.png[/img][img]http://i.imgur.com/bs0HRM2.png[/img] &[img]http://i.imgur.com/vqLtz3A.png[/img][img]http://i.imgur.com/m1PVUCO.png[/img][img]http://i.imgur.com/lqA2VzS.png[/img][img]http://i.imgur.com/0psGK0d.png[/img][img]http://i.imgur.com/KbrGkx5.png[/img][img]http://i.imgur.com/vjPGoXe.png[/img][img]http://i.imgur.com/w8LXohG.png[/img][img]http://i.imgur.com/s8mmkjP.png[/img][img]http://i.imgur.com/DTuEVLa.png[/img][img]http://i.imgur.com/p9KFXyh.png[/img][img]http://i.imgur.com/dDO4oHa.png[/img][img]http://i.imgur.com/YPzQ2SE.png[/img]

Probably nothing special about it, but here's a link for all You NES palette aficionadas.

[FBX]

I took the Wii palette from that page and lightened it up so that entry 0x30 mapped to white (all channels set to 255, was 182), using some custom tools and GIMP 2. I left entry 0x1D, 2D and 3D alone though, as they seemed bright enough already.

[/table]

Probably nothing special about it, but here's a link for all You NES palette aficionadas.

Here's your wii brighter palette versus the new NES Classic coming out next month (wii on the left & nes classic on the right):



I don't have all the colors finished from the NES Classic, but when I get my own Nes Classic on release day, I'll do a comprehensive complete rip and release it here.

[Elrinth]

enemy power meter look pink compared to orange. I do prefer the colors to the right even tho they might be wrong.

[FBX]

Making use of the newest feature of the Framemeister called "PEDESTAL_LVL", here's a teaser preview of Unsaturated_V7:



No eyeball work whatsoever. Devices used:

NES front-loader composite A/V.
Framemeister with 2.03aE firmware.
Avermedia Game Capture HD II set to highest quality recording.
Adobe Photoshop Blur >> Average function used after full screen color is cropped with a 16x16 tile gap on all sides.

[FinalBaton]

I noticed something that sticked with me this weekend : when watching a Classic Gaming Quarterly episode where he read a '88 game magazine, there were some RGB capture NES screenshots at some points. Which hints at a developper tool that operates on an RGB colorspace. That really grabbed my attention.
That means that when Nintendo nowadays republish NES games, they have an actual RGB palette to go back to for reference.

[Link83]

Making use of the newest feature of the Framemeister called "PEDESTAL_LVL", here's a teaser preview of Unsaturated_V7:

Nice work FBX Although even after googling i'm a little confused what "PEDESTAL_LVL" actually does!
From this:-
http://arekuse.net/blog/?page_id=2034

PEDESTAL_LVL: only meaningful for formats NTSC M (USA) and NTSC MJ and corrects the black levels

It sounds like it adjusts the black level between USA and Japan standards?:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTSC-J
In which case does Unsaturated V7 use the NTSC-M 7.5 IRE or NTSC-MJ 0 IRE black level now? (Hoping its NTSC-MJ)

[tjstogy]

FBX- how did v7 come about and when will it be released?

[FBX]

FBX- how did v7 come about and when will it be released?

It's still in experimental mode (trying out different saturation and gamma levels), and I may not actually call it version 7 due to the fact that it's quite different with those darker colors. I'm thinking of just releasing it as a variant. At any rate, it will be packaged with the NES Classic palette after I get one of those on the 11th.

Update: I broke out my CRT monitor to compare, and the hue values of Pedestal_lvl enabled are definitely more authentic looking. I'll post a link to the .pal file for public testing once I get a finished set with the right balance of saturation/brightness/gamma.

Update 2: Everything going excellent. I'm also doing a complete set of emphasis colors, though it will take quite some time to finish these as there are 8 possible colors per entry:

1. No Emphasis
2. Red Emphasis
3. Green Emphasis
4. Blue Emphasis
5. Red + Green Emphasis
6. Red + Blue Emphasis
7. Green + Blue Emphasis
8. Red + Green + Blue Emphasis

There are a few games that actually use the emphasis feature, so it will be important to capture them for posterity.

[copy]

Always interesting to see your latest developments, FBX. I'll be ready to open up my NES again for another firmware flash.

(I'm not sure of the value of the NES Classic palette, though. Isn't it likely to be just as inaccurate as all the other official Nintendo emulators?)

In which case does Unsaturated V7 use the NTSC-M 7.5 IRE or NTSC-MJ 0 IRE black level now? (Hoping its NTSC-MJ)

I would think it would be the opposite. Since FBX is capturing a US NES, PEDESTAL_LVL should be set to correspond to the US 7.5 IRE standard.

[tjstogy]

Which is most accurate for playing on a crt when trying to make it look close to composite colors, v6 or v7? I don't use a framemeister.

[RGB32E]

In which case does Unsaturated V7 use the NTSC-M 7.5 IRE or NTSC-MJ 0 IRE black level now? (Hoping its NTSC-MJ)

I would think it would be the opposite. Since FBX is capturing a US NES, PEDESTAL_LVL should be set to correspond to the US 7.5 IRE standard.

That would be under the potentially false assumption that the IRE levels are actually any different (or even applicable) between the US and JP NES/FC consoles and would require a valid comparison (circuits and/or captures). I've seen no data to suggest that the PPUs are fundamentally different between US and JP consoles.

[FBX]

Unsaturated-V7 is uploaded for emulator testing:

http://www.firebrandx.com/downloads/Unsaturated-V7.zip

After several test captures, I landed on a nice balance of saturation and gamma levels combined with pedestal_lvl enabled hues. So I'm going to go ahead and label it version 7 as it effectively replaces version 6 for authenticity.

I'll wait until I can do a full rip of the NES Classic console after the 11th before paying Tim to do a new firmware, which would be pretty cool to have a selection of PC-10 >> Unsat-V7 >> Nes Classic.

[FBX]

Always interesting to see your latest developments, FBX. I'll be ready to open up my NES again for another firmware flash.

(I'm not sure of the value of the NES Classic palette, though. Isn't it likely to be just as inaccurate as all the other official Nintendo emulators?)

In which case does Unsaturated V7 use the NTSC-M 7.5 IRE or NTSC-MJ 0 IRE black level now? (Hoping its NTSC-MJ)

I would think it would be the opposite. Since FBX is capturing a US NES, PEDESTAL_LVL should be set to correspond to the US 7.5 IRE standard.

NES Classic colors are not really authentic to a real NES from what I've seen thus far. The starting level wall graphics in Metroid are predominantly blue on the NES Classic, whereas on a real NES you can see it's more leaning towards cyan in certain parts of the graphics. However, having the option to use what Nintendo themselves now considers their 'official" NES palette would be really cool in my opinion.

On the subject NTSC-MJ, I believe the USA original NES deck uses the same color output as the Japanese Famicom. The "PEDESTAL_LVL" function of the Framemeister is supposedly to address the Japanese IRE standard. I believe this is why the bricks on Castlevania stage 2 are now much more red due to this difference, which finally explains why so many palettes had them slightly purple (as my version 6 also did), whereas people hooking the NES up to their CRTs see red bricks.

[copy]

Bear with me, lots of speculation ahead.

That would be under the potentially false assumption that the IRE levels are actually any different (or even applicable) between the US and JP NES/FC consoles and would require a valid comparison (circuits and/or captures). I've seen no data to suggest that the PPUs are fundamentally different between US and JP consoles.

Good point. I didn't realize that the US NES and JP FC might output identical levels. However, IRE should definitely be applicable to any analog video signal. The NES/FC has to be putting out black at either 0 IRE or 7.5 IRE. It can't really be both (or neither).

If it's true that the NES and FC output identical signals, then being from a Japanese company, the NES/FC likely uses the Japan standard of 0 IRE -- right?

(For instance, I'm sure my US Wii's composite/s-video output uses 0 IRE. When I was capturing video from it, the recordings came out extremely dark. I had to change my DVD recorder's "input black level" setting from "standard" (default, for 7.5 IRE sources) to "enhanced" (for 0 IRE) to correct this.)

On the subject NTSC-MJ, I believe the USA original NES deck uses the same color output as the Japanese Famicom. The "PEDESTAL_LVL" function of the Framemeister is supposedly to address the Japanese IRE standard.

Since the XRGB-Mini is also a Japanese device, I assume that the default PEDESTAL_LVL setting (and pre-2.03 firmware) would be correct for 0 IRE. If the Japanese and US PPUs output exactly the same black level, then PEDESTAL_LVL "off" (I forget the exact setting name) should still be the correct setting for capturing video from either.

So, if you are now turning PEDESTAL_LVL "on," this would actually result in less accurate NES captures -- no? (Granted, it may more closely reflect what colors looked like on our US TVs adjusted to 7.5 IRE. But if US NES systems have really been putting out a 0 IRE signal all along, that means we've been seeing the "wrong" colors due to the IRE mismatch.)

I believe this is why the bricks on Castlevania stage 2 are now much more red due to this difference, which finally explains why so many palettes had them slightly purple (as my version 6 also did), whereas people hooking the NES up to their CRTs see red bricks.

If my reasoning is valid, then Japanese players would have been seeing the brighter/purple bricks on their TVs like in V6 (correctly?), while we in the US would have seen them as darker/red like V7 (incorrectly?).

[copy]

After trying it out a bunch tonight, I feel confident that:

PEDESTAL_LVL=OFF is for 0 IRE sources.
PEDESTAL_LVL=ON is for 7.5 IRE sources. (You can see how it darkens the image. This makes sense if it is meant to adjust for the higher 7.5 IRE black level.)

As for which is more appropriate for the NES, I want to say that my front-loader's composite output looks more or less correct with PEDESTAL_LVL=OFF. The black background in SMB level 1-2 is just a hair lighter than the XRGB-Mini's pillarbox bars. (If SMB's black background was at 7.5 IRE, it should look very obviously washed out on PEDESTAL_LVL=OFF, but it doesn't to me.) Setting PEDESTAL_LVL=ON makes everything look a little too dark, I think.

Anyway, my point in all of this: I'm not certain that it makes sense to base an NES palette on colors captured with PEDESTAL_LVL=ON. With due respect, FBX, I worry you may have headed down a wrong path here.

[FBX]

If my reasoning is valid, then Japanese players would have been seeing the brighter/purple bricks on their TVs like in V6 (correctly?), while we in the US would have seen them as darker/red like V7 (incorrectly?).

Quite possibly. However, the biggest complaint I get concerning V6 is how PVMs show red bricks, and so CRT users think the purple brick palettes are just plain wrong. I didn't want to simply guess the color, so I found it fascinating that the red-versus-purple issue could be reproduced with the pedestal function.

Anyway, my point in all of this: I'm not certain that it makes sense to base an NES palette on colors captured with PEDESTAL_LVL=ON. With due respect, FBX, I worry you may have headed down a wrong path here.

Not to worry, the Unsaturated-V7 palette I linked has the darkest colors of each swatch mathematically boosted to look otherwise normal as though the pedestal function was turned off, but keeping the hues as though it was turned on. The result is it looks very similar to V6, but dark color examples like Castlevania's 2nd stage now more closely match CRTs. Those bricks for example, went from 83, 0, 17 to 93, 0, 19, which is the exact same percentage of red versus blue, but at a brighter value.


In any event, if anyone is concerned about the direction V7 took, here are some example pics with V6 on the left and V7 on the right:










Now the 2nd biggest complaint I get concerns Super Mario Bros. sky. CRTs show it as a vivid light blue, but modern displays pick up on the subtle red weight. However, I got vindication in that the NES Classic palette entry has even MORE red weight to it than my own V7:

NES Classic: 145, 135, 255
Unsat-V7: 145, 139, 255

That means even Nintendo themselves officially promote the SMB sky color as having a slight purple tinge.

[bobrocks95]

So at this point I have no earthly idea what the "correct" palette is for the NES, and I'm starting to think that there isn't one. Is that right?

[tjstogy]

FBX: there's an interview with miyamoto and he said the sky in Mario 1 was intentionally a purple hue. I'll see if I can find it..

[Arasoi]

.

[tjstogy]

That's the one, thanks for finding it

[NJRoadfan]

The whole 7.5 vs. 0 IRE black level is going to be a moot point on a home console anyway. The only people who cared were the ones broadcasting over the air as it was part of the NTSC specification (game systems are already in gross violation outputting 240p video). Its purpose was to give a buffer between sync signals and the actual video signal (low IRE video signals can cause unstable sync on some displays). To muddy the waters, Japan switched from 7.5 IRE to 0 IRE blacks in 1985. PAL always had 0 IRE blacks in the standard.

[panzeroceania]

it would be nice to see some image capture tests and vector scope analysis from an original, unmodified Family Computer system. Also running it directly to a display without running it through a scaler / transcoder to see what it looks like.

I really think this would put a lot of questions and speculations to rest once and for all. It might not hurt to source at least 2 systems so you can factor out an anomalies that might come from just 1 sample system as the hardware is old. If funding is needed for such an endeavor I'm sure several of us on the board would be willing to contribute.

In addition to learning new things, I'm sure it would confirm several things we already know. Win-win.

EDIT:

Another factor is that some people are playing on CRTs, some people are playing on XRGB-Mini, some people are playing on OSSC

we'd want to make sure the colors appear correctly on all 3 of the above setups.

[FBX]

Just posting an update in that I am almost finished with beta capturing at various brightness/saturation levels. It looks like ultimately I will be using 25-10-0-26 (color settings) as this seems to be the closest to 'neutral' influence on the video feed. Additionally I'll be using pedestal turned off for the the capture like on version 6, as it appears only that red color used in the bricks changes in hue between the modes. So what I'm going to do after the final capture tomorrow is change the hue for that entry to match the pedestal version, only keeping it at the same brightness as the non-pedestal version. Lastly, using a manual video filter value of 30 combined with photoshop color averaging I'm using this time around over V6 is already making it look superior on every entry from my own tests.

I'll post the finalized palette tomorrow night, and then of course the firmware release will come packaged with NES Classic some time after the 11th.

[FBX]

Palette tested and finished! Since this is the last version I'll be doing, I'm just calling it "Unsaturated-Final". First, here's the palette breakdown:



Next is the final comparison of Castlevania stage 2 with version 6:



Note the graphics are little more vivid on the final palette, and this is due to using new features like manual chroma filtering level of 30, and a saturation value of 26 (which I found to be the highest 'safe' setting before grey scales get pulled off balance).

Lastly, here's the .pal file for emulator users:

http://www.firebrandx.com/downloads/Uns ... -Final.zip


Cheers!

[RGBSource]

Nice! Looks like your final palette is closer to what I captured about a month ago.

http://rgbsource.blogspot.com/search/la ... %20Palette


NESCAP/HYBRID/FCEUX

[Guspaz]

So, is the final palette more accurate than v6 for those of us who aren't using a Framemeister (like RGB on a PVM, or an OSSC)?

[FBX]

Nice! Looks like your final palette is closer to what I captured about a month ago.

Yeah my final version looks very similar to your "NESCAP" palette. The hybrid and FEUX look too saturated for my tastes though.

Edit: Had a look at the capture device you are using for your work, and I might just have to buy one myself. The fact that it handles composite SD video straight into it is a major selling point for me.

Here's the link to it for those also interested:

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/produc ... nsitypro4k


Edit 2: Just did a comparison of our palettes and it's striking how close they came out!
Here's Unsaturated-Final and then NESCAP:




Other than mine being very slightly more saturated, the only noted difference is yours still retains the off-balanced darker two olive colors, whereas mine has them corrected (requested correction from several people put off by the imbalance).