Prelude to the Apocalypse

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Iran War. When.

2021
3
5%
2022-2025
17
28%
2026-2030
8
13%
2031-2040
5
8%
2041-2050
0
No votes
Never
28
46%
 
Total votes: 61

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BulletMagnet
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by BulletMagnet »

To Far Away Times wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2024 6:09 am People daydreaming of a heroic Clint Eastwood standoff against the might of the US Military should probably not be the ones deciding our children’s fate at schools.
I actually saw a bit of commentary on this recently that made a good point, namely that the people claiming to be most concerned about the government coming to take their guns are the ones most opposed to any sort of national gun registry, because "that'll tell them where their targets are": the question is, if you think that owning a personal firearm is an effective defense against a tyrannical government, wouldn't such a registry serve as a deterrent against such government action? Wouldn't that tell them who not to mess with? And the more guns someone has officially on the books, the greater the deterrent?

Not to mention, of course, that when it comes to the government deploying the military against its own citizens, one of the two major party candidates has explicitly promised to do just this, and I guarantee that nearly all of the Gadsden flag-waving crowd will be eagerly voting for that candidate and the party obediently backing him straight down the ticket; for all their constant "slippery slope" arguments in this case they're all too willing to give the government the benefit of the doubt that it would only ever take such action against, y'know, those people.
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by To Far Away Times »

BulletMagnet wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2024 12:27 pm
To Far Away Times wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2024 6:09 am People daydreaming of a heroic Clint Eastwood standoff against the might of the US Military should probably not be the ones deciding our children’s fate at schools.
I actually saw a bit of commentary on this recently that made a good point, namely that the people claiming to be most concerned about the government coming to take their guns are the ones most opposed to any sort of national gun registry, because "that'll tell them where their targets are": the question is, if you think that owning a personal firearm is an effective defense against a tyrannical government, wouldn't such a registry serve as a deterrent against such government action? Wouldn't that tell them who not to mess with? And the more guns someone has officially on the books, the greater the deterrent?

Not to mention, of course, that when it comes to the government deploying the military against its own citizens, one of the two major party candidates has explicitly promised to do just this, and I guarantee that nearly all of the Gadsden flag-waving crowd will be eagerly voting for that candidate and the party obediently backing him straight down the ticket; for all their constant "slippery slope" arguments in this case they're all too willing to give the government the benefit of the doubt that it would only ever take such action against, y'know, those people.
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by neorichieb1971 »

Question for you USA citizens.

Do you believe the gun debate should only include USA citizens and people that live in the USA? Do you value any input from the rest of the world is valuable? Because I get the vibe that us outsiders are not welcome into this debate at all from previous experience (on other forums not this one).
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by BulletMagnet »

neorichieb1971 wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2024 4:05 pmDo you believe the gun debate should only include USA citizens and people that live in the USA? Do you value any input from the rest of the world is valuable? Because I get the vibe that us outsiders are not welcome into this debate at all from previous experience (on other forums not this one).
Speaking only for myself, I have no problems with non-USA people weighing in on the situation here, mainly because most of you, by all accounts, have a better handle on it than we do: as The Onion's tragically-recurring headline reads, 'No Way To Prevent This', Says Only Country Where This Happens.

Just off the top of my head I recall "pro-gun" people here frequently citing the low gun death figures in one of the Scandinavian countries (I want to say Finland) where most citizens are actually required to own a firearm; they almost never include, however, that both guns and ammo there are very strictly regulated and regular training is mandated by law.

So yeah, as far as I'm concerned, if you're doing so in good faith as opposed to just stirring the pot for teh lulz, post away: if either one of us states something about the situation that the other recognizes as incorrect we can civilly educate each other, heaven knows this side of the Atlantic in particular could use more of that.
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by To Far Away Times »

neorichieb1971 wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2024 4:05 pm Question for you USA citizens.

Do you believe the gun debate should only include USA citizens and people that live in the USA? Do you value any input from the rest of the world is valuable? Because I get the vibe that us outsiders are not welcome into this debate at all from previous experience (on other forums not this one).
I think the rest of the world's input is incredibly important. Australia's incredibly effective gun buy back program could really be a role model for us.

Our gun issues in the US are deeply entrenched in our culture. We have people driving around in lifted pickup trucks with gun stickers and threatening slogans. Here in Oregon, many people have these vapid "OREgunian" stickers on their cars. The stickers have an AR-15 on them as well, to really drive home how much they support school shootings. A not insignificant portion of the US derives their entire personhood from their guns. To them, taking away their guns is taking away their reason to live. It's a mental health issue alright, but not the one the school shooting defense force points to.

My Aunt is a perfect example. She was bragging about spending $4,000 on a gold plated handgun that had "Trump" engraved on one side of the barrel, and "2nd Amendment" on the other. She made sure to mention several times that it was a "limited edition" and a "collector's item." I mentioned to her that she should have given the $4,000 to school shooting victims instead. She got real pissed and it was very awkward while she was visiting but it was totally worth it. I was so proud to be the opposite of her in every way possible.
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by orange808 »

There's a manhunt for a shooter over around Kentucky today. They haven't arrested the suspect, I'm sure they have apprehended his parents and grandparents. :D Obviously, they are completely to blame and everything else is fine.
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by neorichieb1971 »

I don't know how to double quote folk I always mess it up.

When we argue against a US person we don't get anywhere because the US person starts talking about things that seem strange and alien to us. The first and foremost thing that gets me straight away is how set in USA ways you need to be to feel like an American. Like by somehow stating that change should come makes them feel an inferiority complex all of a sudden. Its very hard to give something then take it away no matter what it is. Once you have it, you don't want to give it up.

For some strange reason the BBC news in the UK covers all mass shootings in the USA where a school is concerned, to the point it takes 15 minutes of headlines news away from UK matters. Whilst I am watching the news of people dying (kids, teachers) my first food of thought is that this is not news at all. Because the environment is ripe for that to happen, it will happen, should be expected, and therefore should not be news. Especially if the electorate, lobbying parties, media, celebrities, politicans and congress feel like nothing should change. Crying about collateral damage as a result of said policies just seems utterly ridiculous to us.

What I am hearing is that you want it to remain ripe for it to happen, but pray it never happens to yourself (tell me this isn't the American way?). Which in essence is a lottery of death, a russian roulette scenario on a larger scale. I truly believe most Americans are accepting of it because 2 weeks after a mass shooting nobody is talking about it anymore. Or are they? I should not be so presumptious. Of course some like my ex girlfriend don't watch the news, because its all bad... and those people just prefer ignorance.

You could tell me that you like it the way it is, and I would accept that. You could tell me you don't accept the way it is, and I would accept that. But I don't accept you telling me that nothing should change, except less mass shootings. Because just like anything in life, if you want something there is a cost to it. You have to feel the pain to feel the gain.

Of course this is just my opinion, I am not pushing an agenda here. I've always felt that if the USA debt needed to be repaid, many would become desperate. What does the USA look like with 30-40 million gun wielding desperate people?
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

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To Far Away Times wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2024 6:09 am People daydreaming of a heroic Clint Eastwood standoff against the might of the US Military should probably not be the ones deciding our children’s fate at schools.

Because, let’s face it, if a tyrannical US government used its military to attack its own citizens we would measure the military’s victory in hours.
The military would never win that battle and they know it.

They just spent the last two decades getting their collective ass kicked by a bunch of shepherds and subsitence farmers on the opposite side of the world using rusty old guns from the 80s.

Imagine them trying that with a population that's almost a hundred times larger, armed with modern weaponry, that shares an infrastrucure, can pass for them, and has near-unlimited access to their homes and families.

The US military definitely doesn't want that smoke.
orange808 wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2024 4:19 am Every American that doesn't actively push back at guns is guilty. Of course, we don't want to take on any difficult changes, so we arrest the parents. It's easier.
If you're queer in America you better be fucking armed or be tight with someone who is because they're coming for us and they're trying really hard to make it legal.

I'll disarm after the crazy bigots stop threatening my existence. Until then I'm staying strapped.
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

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Air Master Burst wrote: Sun Sep 08, 2024 3:22 am
Imagine them trying that with a population that's almost a hundred times larger, armed with modern weaponry, that shares an infrastrucure, can pass for them, and has near-unlimited access to their homes and families.
Huh? The population?

We're not with you!

The population isn't with you. If the government shows up to take down some gun humpers, it will be dozen or so "freedumb lovers" hunkered down in a compound of some kind.

Of course, the kid diddler could have come out with his hands up. Instead, he chose death for everyone in his flock.

Then, of course, it was time to bomb a federal building, murder everyone, and crush the children on the bottom level: for freedumb!
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by Air Master Burst »

orange808 wrote: Sun Sep 08, 2024 3:45 am The population isn't with you. If the government shows up to take down some gun humpers, it will be dozen or so "freedumb lovers" hunkered down in a compound of some kind.
This wasn't the hypothetical I was responding to, but it doesn't really matter because I stopped expecting rational responses from you long ago.

But no, that's not the case at all. Waco was 30 years ago! These days the weirdo white dudes in compounds get peacefully detained and then run for governor of Idaho a couple years later and get 17% of the vote.

If they come for anyone it's gonna be trans and queer people first. Big surprise you're not with us.
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by orange808 »

Air Master Burst wrote: Sun Sep 08, 2024 4:07 am
orange808 wrote: Sun Sep 08, 2024 3:45 am The population isn't with you. If the government shows up to take down some gun humpers, it will be dozen or so "freedumb lovers" hunkered down in a compound of some kind.
This wasn't the hypothetical I was responding to, but it doesn't really matter because I stopped expecting rational responses from you long ago.

But no, that's not the case at all. Waco was 30 years ago! These days the weirdo white dudes in compounds get peacefully detained and then run for governor of Idaho a couple years later and get 17% of the vote.

If they come for anyone it's gonna be trans and queer people first. Big surprise you're not with us.
Rational? I hate to break it to you, but you're paranoid. You don't think you might be just a bit paranoid?

I'm not interested in talking about democracy on the gun issue. The gun lobby wags the dog in America. Democracy has no chance in the face of wide spread corruption. Guns are a huge business. Gosh, I hope thousands more guns flooding the market won't make the gun problem worse, right? But, pardon me. That's irrational, right? They'll keep making them every day, week, month, and year--and they'll keep piling higher. Irrational, right?

Waco was 30 years ago. You're right. Know what? Back then, people seemed to agree that those people were bonkers. Now, we have an orange clown campaigning to gun humpers on the Waco episode. It's lunacy! I brought it up because many hard core gun humping "militia" people think it's important.

And, freedumb lovers always get a bit extra riled when I mention the kid diddler part. :lol: That's always conveniently left out of their retelling.
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

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orange808 wrote: Sun Sep 08, 2024 4:26 am Rational? I hate to break it to you, but you're paranoid. You don't think you might be just a bit paranoid?
A queer person has repeatedly tried to explain to you that they are unsafe enough in their country that they feel the need to be armed for protection. Your response is to lecture them about being a gun-humping psycopath and completely ignore any concern for their personal safety.

Fuck, at least the republicans just call me a faggot or a groomer and get on wi-
orange808 wrote: Sun Sep 08, 2024 4:26 am And, freedumb lovers always get a bit extra riled when I mention the kid diddler part. :lol: That's always conveniently left out of their retelling.
I legit can't tell if you're trying to imply something here or not after all of your other hysterics. I'm probably just paranoid.
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

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Air Master Burst wrote: Sun Sep 08, 2024 3:22 am
To Far Away Times wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2024 6:09 am People daydreaming of a heroic Clint Eastwood standoff against the might of the US Military should probably not be the ones deciding our children’s fate at schools.

Because, let’s face it, if a tyrannical US government used its military to attack its own citizens we would measure the military’s victory in hours.
The military would never win that battle and they know it.

They just spent the last two decades getting their collective ass kicked by a bunch of shepherds and subsitence farmers on the opposite side of the world using rusty old guns from the 80s.

Imagine them trying that with a population that's almost a hundred times larger, armed with modern weaponry, that shares an infrastrucure, can pass for them, and has near-unlimited access to their homes and families.

The US military definitely doesn't want that smoke.

I’m not so sure. While I think the chance that the US military would turn on its citizen’s is nearly 0%, if it decided to, it would be an incredibly one sided affair. And the US captured Falujah in just seven days, half way across the world, establishing supply lines across an ocean. Say what you will about the ethics of attacking Iraq, but the entire world was in awe of that display of military prowess. Since we know the WMDs were a lie from the beginning and since we weren’t interested in colonizing Iraq, the goal of the war was just to occupy it for as long as possible and make money for military contractors and generate shareholder value, and the war was incredibly successful in accomplishing it’s goals.

Your neighborhood Meal Team Six and the Gravy Seals would put up no noticeable resistance against ICBMs, drones, fighter jets, or even tanks.

It is hard to fathom how powerful the US military is, and how outmatched an AR-15 toting gun enthusiast would be.

I absolutely don’t buy that the US citizens could put up a fight against their own military. That ship sailed decades ago.
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by Sima Tuna »

The real reason the USA can't win a fight against its own citizens is because you can't shoot the people who bake your bread. Does this really need explaining? No, the US can't just genocide its own citizens with tanks. They have to show some level of restraint, which is exactly why pissed-off citizens with guns can still be scary to the people in this country with power. If the US turns one of the states into a smoking crater, they're going to have a devil of a time convincing all the other states to send them supplies.

The power of the country comes from what it produces. The army doesn't produce. The citizens produce. The value of the country is tied to the civilian sector. And the power of the military sector is all on loan from the civilian sector (supplies, troops, technology etc all usually come from civilians initially.) Talk about the government killing its own civilian sector is crazy. Even an evil person wouldn't deliberately kill their own taxpayers en masse.

The military is not self-sufficient! Least of all our bloated-ass military.
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by Air Master Burst »

To Far Away Times wrote: Sun Sep 08, 2024 8:00 am It is hard to fathom how powerful the US military is, and how outmatched an AR-15 toting gun enthusiast would be.

I absolutely don’t buy that the US citizens could put up a fight against their own military. That ship sailed decades ago.
I used to be an Army scout and spent a year in the mountains of Afghanistan. I've experienced firsthand how the US military is next to useless for anything other than a stand-up fight.

Sure, they could just bomb everything, but THEY STILL HAVE TO LIVE HERE. That means a prolonged occupation. Even if the US military had the manpower for that (they really don't, to the point they might have to bring the draft back they're getting so desperate), do you think they're gonna blow up their own power plants and Walmarts? Your average grunt can't hook up wifi or make pumpkin spice lattes. And that's just the infrastructure, imagine the human consequences:

Suddenly the brother or cousin of that other person you just killed is pissed, only instead of shooting at you, they can just find your house and kill your loved ones back.

That's not a fight the military has any chance of winning and they know it.
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by Sengoku Strider »

After his particularly lackluster response criticizing Obamacare but giving no alternatives, ABC moderator Linsey Davis asked Trump outright if he knew what he was talking about. “Yes or no, you still do not have a plan?” she said.

“I have concepts of a plan,” Trump replied. “I’m not president right now.”
“I have concepts of a plan”

The golden escalator was June 2015. 9 fucking years.
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by To Far Away Times »

I forgot what it was like to have a presidential candidate who is a great speaker. Harris really killed it during the debate. Fiery when she needed to be, calm when she needed to be, smart, well informed, good appeal to emotion, and answered the questions with thoughtful responses and then smoothly pivoted into a trap for ol' Donny at the end of most responses, who took the bait every single time. It looked like a seasoned prosecutor taking apart a convicted felon in court and laying traps for him to seal his own grave. She got him incredibly flustered wtih the "you were fired by 81 Million people" line and he took the bait hook, line, and sinker when she said his crowd sizes were small because people realized he had no policies to talk about. And then of course the after 8 years "I have concepts of a plan" to end the debate was just the icing on the cake. He looked like a dumbass.

It was also really noticeable how down Trump is on the US. Everything and everyone is terrible. Everything is bad and it's someone else's fault. Democrats, minorities, pets... And how Kamala uses inspiring phrases and has a vision of a better tomorrow and wants to build something. I'm really glad she mentioned that Trump always pushes people down and she wants to lift people up. I hope that sticks in the minds of independents.

Really just a tremendous difference in cognitive ability on display.
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by Sima Tuna »

What are Kamala Harris' foreign policy positions? I did a quick search and nothing I found looked promising. Funding to Ukraine is fine, ofc. But then came the Israel question and she supports continuing to send them aid while they bomb Palestine off the map. She gave some vague support to the notion of protecting Taiwan. Nobody knows what will happen there, except China will likely someday move to retake Taiwan militarily, and Taiwan has never been successfully defended long-term (because it's an island.) Abandoning Taiwan or Defending Taiwan, both of those choices could potentially be wrong.

My guess based on what I've seen and heard is Kamala will continue the US' disastrous foreign policy approach (particularly towards the middle east) which has dominated our behavior post-9/11. Thus perpetuating an unbroken line of fuckery from Dubya to Obama to Biden to Harris.

I don't need to ask about domestic policy because, of course, she will be more generous with social programs than Trump. The fight for student loan forgiveness has been continuing under the Biden-Harris administration, even if they've been cockblocked numerous times (I received a letter only a month or two ago that forced me out of my payment plan because of conservatives.) I guess we'll see how committed she is to student loan forgiveness after she takes office, eh? Seems to me a very New Democrat move to take power and then not really care anymore.
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by To Far Away Times »

Kamala’s answer on Palestine/Israel sucked, for sure.

As far as Taiwan goes, I think if China invades Taiwan we go right into World War 3 regardless of whose president. Taiwan makes the vast majority of the world’s semiconductors, and if that fell into China’s hands pretty much all future electronics gizmos in the western world would be compromised. China would know our military’s every move. It was be a colossal disaster. That’s why bringing semi conductor manufacturing back to the US is going to be one of the things the Biden Administration is going to be remembered for. But it takes years to get those facilities up and running.

China is aware of all that too, and I think they’re more interested in seizing Taiwan than escalating into World War 3, so I think they’ll just wait it out.
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by Air Master Burst »

Harris' whole campaign is giving me major Bill Clinton triangulation vibes. She looks and sounds the part so she's gonna have to fumble pretty bad to lose it at this point (certainly a possibility!).

On the plus side, the queers probably won't be thrown to the wolves as hard as we were in the 90s, but unfortunately poor people are likely still fucked.
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by To Far Away Times »

Yeah, Harris isn’t going to be an inspiring progressive leader, but when the alternative is the taking the US backwards into a regressive shithole, it’s hard not to root for her.
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by Sima Tuna »

To Far Away Times wrote: Thu Sep 12, 2024 5:37 am
As far as Taiwan goes, I think if China invades Taiwan we go right into World War 3 regardless of whose president. Taiwan makes the vast majority of the world’s semiconductors, and if that fell into China’s hands pretty much all future electronics gizmos in the western world would be compromised. China would know our military’s every move. It was be a colossal disaster. That’s why bringing semi conductor manufacturing back to the US is going to be one of the things the Biden Administration is going to be remembered for. But it takes years to get those facilities up and running.

China is aware of all that too, and I think they’re more interested in seizing Taiwan than escalating into World War 3, so I think they’ll just wait it out.
I agree that China invading Taiwan could be the end of everything. But I don't believe there's any chance China will leave Taiwan free forever. China's own state propaganda has always held that Hong Kong and Taiwan are part of China. How can they never take action? They may wait for a while, but eventually they will be coming for it. They came for Hong Kong.

I didn't know about the semiconductors thing. I wonder if that doesn't give China even more of an incentive to want Taiwan. Maybe China has some kind of backroom deal with the USA to hold off retaking Taiwan until we get domestic semiconductor manufacturing going here in the USA. Or perhaps they're just going to do that anyway, without any deal.

I don't know when China is coming for Taiwan, I just know that it will happen within my lifetime. If it takes the USA ten years to set up manufacturing for semiconductors, well maybe China would wait that long. Or even longer.

Edit: apparently there are already defense documents and public discussions among experts about the likelihood of Taiwan's annexation somewhere around 2030.
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by ExitPlanetDust »

This China and Taiwan WW3 topic reminds me of this video from a couple of years ago.

Conflict is inevitable once warming annual temperatures open an alternative year-round trade route from Russia to China.
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by BulletMagnet »

neorichieb1971 wrote: Sun Sep 08, 2024 2:19 amWhat I am hearing is that you want it to remain ripe for it to happen, but pray it never happens to yourself (tell me this isn't the American way?).
Apologies for the delayed response, but I did want to reply to this: I do concur that plain old wishful thinking is certainly part of the equation, especially since the pro-gun crowd has been pushing the "this is the price we pay for freedom" line for so long, but I would also factor in two other mindsets that I've brought up here before:

1) Cutting off one's nose to spite one's face: yeah, doing things this way might hurt me, but it will also hurt (or at least piss off) people I don't like - or, alternately, ensure that nobody who I think doesn't deserve a better alternative ever gets it, so it's worth it. Our health care system would be my go-to example of this: sure, every metric you can apply says that a universal state-run system is massively superior to the profit-driven nightmare we have now, but that would also mean that Those People suddenly wouldn't have to take out loans to cover vital medications, and we can't have that.

2) Refusal to admit you were wrong: no matter how much evidence piles up that it's past time to change your position, you would do pretty much anything other than give those who were right the satisfaction. The Iraq war pops most immediately to mind; as it became clear that it had been sold to us on false pretenses and wasn't going nearly as well as the sellers were saying, people not only accused critics of hating freedom and loving terrorists, but literally resurrected the "America Right or Wrong" slogan from Vietnam. I was honestly initially caught off guard by just how explicitly on-the-nose its re-adoption was; a significant portion of the population was stating, in no uncertain terms, "I would rather that innocent people continue to die than change my views". Which, I think, dovetails quite nicely into the domestic gun issue.

Mind you, I'm sure such attitudes exist within every population, though I can only wonder if they command anywhere near as much power as they do around here; you can try your damndest to debate and educate certain folks until you're blue in the face, but in the end it always becomes clear what their actual motivations are, and that they've completely, utterly and unrepentantly wasted your time.
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by To Far Away Times »

It's tough when your choices are evil piece of shit politicians on one end of the aisle and slightly less shitty politicians on the other. Dems are happy to let republicans destroy the country, and then when they have the power to reverse it, they don't do it. Trump 2017 trickle down tax changes, Obama's love of drone strikes during the War on Iraq, you name it.

Bernie, Katie Porter, and AOC maybe, are the only ones I can think of who actually give a shit about making the US (and the world) a better place.

The "least efficient healthcare system in the world" defense force really is something. If we went to Single Payer healthcare a lot of middle men, resellers, and profiteers would be out a job, and that's a good thing.
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

Post by neorichieb1971 »

BulletMagnet wrote: Sat Sep 14, 2024 7:56 pm
neorichieb1971 wrote: Sun Sep 08, 2024 2:19 amWhat I am hearing is that you want it to remain ripe for it to happen, but pray it never happens to yourself (tell me this isn't the American way?).
Apologies for the delayed response, but I did want to reply to this: I do concur that plain old wishful thinking is certainly part of the equation, especially since the pro-gun crowd has been pushing the "this is the price we pay for freedom" line for so long, but I would also factor in two other mindsets that I've brought up here before:

1) Cutting off one's nose to spite one's face: yeah, doing things this way might hurt me, but it will also hurt (or at least piss off) people I don't like - or, alternately, ensure that nobody who I think doesn't deserve a better alternative ever gets it, so it's worth it. Our health care system would be my go-to example of this: sure, every metric you can apply says that a universal state-run system is massively superior to the profit-driven nightmare we have now, but that would also mean that Those People suddenly wouldn't have to take out loans to cover vital medications, and we can't have that.

2) Refusal to admit you were wrong: no matter how much evidence piles up that it's past time to change your position, you would do pretty much anything other than give those who were right the satisfaction. The Iraq war pops most immediately to mind; as it became clear that it had been sold to us on false pretenses and wasn't going nearly as well as the sellers were saying, people not only accused critics of hating freedom and loving terrorists, but literally resurrected the "America Right or Wrong" slogan from Vietnam. I was honestly initially caught off guard by just how explicitly on-the-nose its re-adoption was; a significant portion of the population was stating, in no uncertain terms, "I would rather that innocent people continue to die than change my views". Which, I think, dovetails quite nicely into the domestic gun issue.

Mind you, I'm sure such attitudes exist within every population, though I can only wonder if they command anywhere near as much power as they do around here; you can try your damndest to debate and educate certain folks until you're blue in the face, but in the end it always becomes clear what their actual motivations are, and that they've completely, utterly and unrepentantly wasted your time.
Do USA citizens not agree that certain "Freedoms" should somehow be earned? I know its old rhetoric but you cannot be a Dr without going to school for it, you cannot drive unless you have documentation that says you have passed to a minimum level of control of a car, understanding the risks and the signs of the road. Its fair enough to say the USA is the country of the free, and that freedoms are paramount for the USA way of life. Guns are in their own spirit very simplistic objects/tools and you have parents who have only had the pass down knowledge of their own parents passing down to their kids on how to shoot a gun. Which gets you over the basics.

For me I would make a half way house type of tiered system. I would let folk have the soft 6 shooter revolver type gun without any prequisites. But I would not allow Elmer Fudd to have an AR15 without entering a government ran program that incurs a 6 month course for mental review and practical basics. This may make that person a stronger person behind a gun, but it puts 6 months distance behind wanting the gun and what they plan to do with it. The price point of the course might deter some as well depending on its cost. An AR15 is not entry level, its like passing your car test and buying a Lamborghini straight away. Bad things can happen.

I would also make a law that says that IF you carry a gun too big to conceal on the streets, you can be shot on sight. There is no reason to have a gun that powerful on the streets. It sends the wrong message, and has a "cry wolf" mentality, as if you see so many wolves, you don't know which one is going to act like a wolf.

Now, if you are the type of person that would fight everything i've said, I agree I wasted my time saying it. I watched the Piers Morgan videos on youtube with Ex Govnor Jesse Ventura and I found it extremely worrying that Jesse Ventura was able to get 100% crowd support https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0O3B7N848o . Jesse seems to be obsessed with oppressive governments of other countries and actually states in his own words that the current situation is the best outcome scenario for everyone. I've always had the belief that if you go out with a gun with intention to shoot someone, there is a 99% chance you will succeed. Because even if you have a concealed gun licence you are still going to be a reactor having to be in the perfect place at the perfect time, have the perfect shot to do any good will.
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

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neorichieb1971 wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2024 11:50 am Do USA citizens not agree that certain "Freedoms" should somehow be earned? I know its old rhetoric but you cannot be a Dr without going to school for it, you cannot drive unless you have documentation that says you have passed to a minimum level of control of a car, understanding the risks and the signs of the road
Well, you are required to pass a class and get an actual certification to conceal carry. There are also significant legal hurdles to clear if you want to legally purchase things like machine guns and explosives. There are even mandatory background checks and waiting periods for mundane long guns, although these vary by state. So, you do in fact need to earn the privileges, altthough many would argue the requirements are far too lax.
neorichieb1971 wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2024 11:50 am I would also make a law that says that IF you carry a gun too big to conceal on the streets, you can be shot on sight. There is no reason to have a gun that powerful on the streets. It sends the wrong message, and has a "cry wolf" mentality, as if you see so many wolves, you don't know which one is going to act like a wolf.
When you say "on the streets" you should be more specific. There are tons of rural areas where it's just safer to carry a shotgun because of wildlife. I imagine you were thinking more of urban areas, but these distinctions are important.

I also think it's interesting that you consider open-carry of long guns more dangerous than concealed pistols. This is not a common belief, especially among military and law enforcement. Generally the idiots open-carrying an AR-15 to the Denny's or whatever are just being performative cosplay dorks (not to mention making themselves a primary target if someone does pop off). Just point at them, laugh openly and derisively, and go on about your day.
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

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Air Master Burst wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2024 12:19 pm When you say "on the streets" you should be more specific. There are tons of rural areas where it's just safer to carry a shotgun because of wildlife. I imagine you were thinking more of urban areas, but these distinctions are important.

I also think it's interesting that you consider open-carry of long guns more dangerous than concealed pistols. This is not a common belief, especially among military and law enforcement. Generally the idiots open-carrying an AR-15 to the Denny's or whatever are just being performative cosplay dorks (not to mention making themselves a primary target if someone does pop off). Just point at them, laugh openly and derisively, and go on about your day.
Well, it seems you do have to be REALLY specific with what you say to Americans about guns. A shotgun doesn't spray bullets (Is it called buck shot or something?) and yeah I would put that in the category of not needing a permit for rural areas.

Concealed weapons don't spray bullets at an extremely fast rate. To my knowledge you need to get quite close with a pistol to get a guaranteed shot. You are also not alerting others to your ego problem. Lets get one thing straight for me anyway, I do not understand why guns are like candy/trucks to some people. Where does this upbringing of "I can't wait till i'm 18 I Can buy a gun" come from? Jesus wept, when I was 18 all I wanted to do was buy more expensive toys like videogames and home theater, CD's, music.. You know, NICE things to have. Whats more important getting laid or buying a gun? This is a major problem in itself, gloryfying gun ownership is the first point of failure. Oh well, we are different peoples.
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

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neorichieb1971 wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2024 12:58 pm
Concealed weapons don't spray bullets at an extremely fast rate.
They do. It's literally one of the reasons certain weapons became popular for crime. You can conceal it in your clothes, whip it out (heh) and spray all over your target (heh.) Then drop the gun down a storm drain and go on with your day.

"Extremely fast rate" is a relative term, but any semi-automatic pistol or rifle will fire as fast as you can pull the trigger. The AR-15 is a semi-auto rifle.

Pistols are accurate enough to kill at the ranges people use them. Most people underestimate the effective range of pistols and shotguns. Video games perpetuate myths about firearms. Shotguns do not appreciably spread at close range. Pistols can kill at ranges non-shooters might think of as "medium" or even "long" range.

A full size Sig holds 15+1. I can load a new mag in very quickly and I'm not at all practiced. If the cost of Sig magazines were not prohibitive, I could theoretically wear hundreds of rounds for a pistol in easily-swappable magazines of 15+1. Just... Rubbin' em all over my body. Hot-swappin' all day.

I think the reason the AR-15 platform has become the perfect weapon for school shooters is a combination of ubiquity, function, high mag size, lethal round and how easily it can be modified. Simply put, they are too good in their role. And too available for purchase or for a shooter to "borrow" from a family member. Which reminds me: pistols are also not really any cheaper than rifles. So if somebody wants to buy a gun for a Going Postal situation, the semi-auto rifle looks like a better bargain.

The pistols that criminals use to commit crimes are usually piece of shit hi-points that get dumped immediately after the crime. A sig costs $800. You can get an AR for $800. Sig has half the mag size and a weaker round. All things being equal, no surprise to see the AR used more.

I'd have no objection if AR purchases required an additional waiting period and mental health check. I've yet to see somebody buy a $2000 custom Kimber to go shoot up a school. Not because the Kimber is a bad gun, inaccurate or can't fire fast... But because it's a $2000 Kimber. :lol:

Edit: Did a quick check and apparently pistols ARE incredibly common in spree shootings. Virginia Tech was a pair of Glock pistols.
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Re: Prelude to the Apocalypse

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neorichieb1971 wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2024 12:58 pm Concealed weapons don't spray bullets at an extremely fast rate. To my knowledge you need to get quite close with a pistol to get a guaranteed shot. You are also not alerting others to your ego problem.
Sima covered the first two points quite well, but to expound on this final point:

You are a human, not an ostrich (ETA: I probably shouldn't make assumptions, actually...) Dudes with small egos who wanna dress up like army men to go to Cracker Barrel aren't actually dangerous. They aren't going to start shooting, they're just looking for a reaction. They're also easy to spot coming.

Random psychos with pistols are FAR more likely to fuck your life up, and you frequently don't even know they're armed until after you accidentally cut one off as they try to exit the Chik-fil-A drive thru.
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