Need help: Dreamcast + HD LED TV + Toro + _______??

[robodude00]

Hey guys, I have order a Toro to go with my Dreamcast and my Sony Bravia LED TV. There's alot of misinformation around the internet in regards to upscalers and such and whether I should just use the native 480P mode through the Dreamcast and let my TV do the upscaling. Is this true? What are my best options here? A Gefen VGA-to-DVI scaler has been recommended. I'm not into capturing game footage so that element is not a factor, I just want the best picture quality(or as close as I can get with spending stacks of money lol). Any help would be very much appreciated because I'm too too savvy with this kind of thing.

[HydrogLox]

I have the best results by connecting the TORO directly to the Sony KDL-50EX645 VGA input. For 480p content I do not get my XRGB-mini involved. I use the XRGB-mini only with 240p titles like Bakuretsu Muteki Bangaioh, GunBird 2, or Twinkle Star Sprites (PORT-FX! 240p LIST.).

[robodude00]

My TV does not have VGA inputs. Only HDMI, DVI(I think), component and composite.

[Stevens]

Not sure if you've watched any of these yet:

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=c ... ast%20hdmi

Hope it helps.

[HydrogLox]

My TV does not have VGA inputs. Only HDMI, DVI(I think), component and composite.

I have exactly the same (good) results when I use a non-scaling VGA-to-HDMI adapter that looks like a MANHATTAN PRODUCTS 177351 MANHATTAN VGA TO HDMI CONVERTER provided that I use something like a Retrobit VGA Box - for some reason my (April 2013) Kuros and (September 2014 & January 2015) Toros don't get along with that adapter (picture blacks out at regular intervals).

In any case you would have to put up with the Dreamcasts 720x480 output (i.e. not true VESA VGA) being squished to 640x480 (resulting in the 640x480 canvas being squished to 568x480) - even with an XRGB-Mini you would need an Extron RGB interface to get rid of that (which adds even more lag).

Another possibility is to use an Audio Authority 9A60 VGA to Component Video Transcoder - it has a potentiometer inside that can adjust some of the "squishing" - with a Kuro/Hanzo/Toro you can even use it for 480i games. The only issue is that some TVs component input can be somewhat laggy.

[beharius]

I tested its noname Aliexpress sibling a while ago, it worked for me without any problems, 480i not supported though as usual. Those Mini VGA-HDMI ones are better for the money, imo.

[HydrogLox]

You could also use a CSY-2100 clone instead of the pricier 9A60 - just expect to do some fiddling with the potentiometers inside.

I was surprised when the Dreamcast + Toro + 9A60 supported 240p/480i/480p on the Sony KDL-50EX645 (connected to component; as long as scanlines aren't enabled).

[noonan2678]

I have the same setup, essentially. I have a Toro and also a Sony 55HX800 currently. I used a Gefen for a while and the results were GREAT!. I recently upgraded to a CSII Pro, so am no longer using the Gefen. That upgrade was for other systems, not the DC. The Gefen is a GREAT solution for the DC and definitely yielded better results than the TV itself.

I'd highly recommend the Gefen and would potentially be looking to sell it. PM me if you're interested.

[Fudoh]

what's a CSII Pro ?

[noonan2678]

what's a CSII Pro ?

LOL - giving me a hard time?

In case not, the Crystalio...thought the version I have is the "pro" version (VP3800).

[Fudoh]

thought so, but I was thrown off by the S. CII it is

[robodude00]

Any advantage of using say a gefen vga to hdmi scaler over an xrgb-mini with the Dreamcast in terms of visual quality and upscaling?

[HydrogLox]

Money being no object I'd use the "gefen vga to hdmi scaler" for 480p and the XRGB-mini for 480i/240p games. So if you're focused on 480p games the "gefen vga to hdmi scaler" is the way to go - the XRGB-mini is just handy for a full range of legacy consoles that tend to output 480i/240p (preferably RGB, though S-Video and composite processing isn't shabby).

[BazookaBen]

The AA 9A60 gives good picture quality, but the dreamcast output is a little weird and isn't perfectly centered on most displays. So you might want an Extron RGB between the dreamcast and 9A60 to center the image.

[robodude00]

My TV does not have VGA inputs. Only HDMI, DVI(I think), component and composite.

I have exactly the same (good) results when I use a non-scaling VGA-to-HDMI adapter that looks like a MANHATTAN PRODUCTS 177351 MANHATTAN VGA TO HDMI CONVERTER provided that I use something like a Retrobit VGA Box - for some reason my (April 2013) Kuros and (September 2014 & January 2015) Toros don't get along with that adapter (picture blacks out at regular intervals).

In any case you would have to put up with the Dreamcasts 720x480 output (i.e. not true VESA VGA) being squished to 640x480 (resulting in the 640x480 canvas being squished to 568x480) - even with an XRGB-Mini you would need an Extron RGB interface to get rid of that (which adds even more lag).

Another possibility is to use an Audio Authority 9A60 VGA to Component Video Transcoder - it has a potentiometer inside that can adjust some of the "squishing" - with a Kuro/Hanzo/Toro you can even use it for 480i games. The only issue is that some TVs component input can be somewhat laggy.

In regards to the squished display when using the Dreamcast via VGA, the link you posted says it can be remedied by changing the horizontal width of the picture in the TV settings? Is this true or would I need an Extron RGB interface(which one specifically because there are many lol). Thanks again.

[HydrogLox]

In regards to the squished display when using the Dreamcast via VGA, the link you posted says it can be remedied by changing the horizontal width of the picture in the TV settings? Is this true or would I need an Extron RGB interface(which one specifically because there are many lol). Thanks again.

It really depends on the TV/Display - some may not offer it at all or require adjustment through the service menu.

Many people around here like the Extron RGB 203 Rxi (three inputs, horizontal AND vertical centering) but even the Extron RGB 192 (or 190) will do as it has the necessary horizontal centering control (A front panel control allows a horizontal centering adjustment).

[Fudoh]

Isn't he actually asking about a horizontal width control, NOT a centering control ?

Changing the horizontal width beyond the 2 or 3 presets of what your TV offers with its AR control, is usually impossible unless you use an external scaling device.

[HydrogLox]

Re-reading the post you are correct. The horizontal shift will only work where the right side of the screen is cut off - which I initially encountered with a Toro -> 9A60 -> (component)KDL-50EX645.

So I guess the Extron RGB doesn't eliminate the extraneous 80 samples (centered - 40 on both sides) per line on the input?

[Das Muel]

The XPC-4 does a ludicrously good job of upscaling from 640x480 VGA to 1080p. I never thought I'd hear myself say it, but it actually beats out my PC CRT monitor in some ways for Dreamcast/Naomi stuff. It's extremely expensive if that's all you're going to use it for though.

[robodude00]

What do you guys suggest? Probably going with a Gefen VGA to HDMI but am concerned about the squished display.

[Fudoh]

The Gefen gives you a horizontally stretched image, while maintaining full display height. About 1.5:1 instead of 1.33:1. It's very nicely scaled though and looks good.

[robodude00]

Thanks for the prompt reply.

Would another scaler avoid this problem? Is it even much of a problem?

[Fudoh]

It comes down to this:

- unless you spend HUNDREDS of dollars you won't achieve the scaling quality your Bravia has on its own.
- to utilize your Bravia's scaling engine and not lose any resolution due to bad VGA/HDMI sampling, you need an analogue transcoder
- using an analogue transcoder you get a slightly horizontally squished image (1.25:1).
- Gefen gives you similar quality with a horizontally stretched image (1.5:1)
- Other scalers can give you a proper 1.33:1 ratio, but won't have the quality of the above.

If you were looking into the last alternative, you would be looking into a DVDO scaler, maybe an iScan HD, HD+ or VP30.

*I* would use an analogue transcoder, enjoy the fantastic quality the Sony offers and live with the slightly narrower AR.

[robodude00]

It comes down to this:

- unless you spend HUNDREDS of dollars you won't achieve the scaling quality your Bravia has on its own.
- to utilize your Bravia's scaling engine and not lose any resolution due to bad VGA/HDMI sampling, you need an analogue transcoder
- using an analogue transcoder you get a slightly horizontally squished image (1.25:1).
- Gefen gives you similar quality with a horizontally stretched image (1.5:1)
- Other scalers can give you a proper 1.33:1 ratio, but won't have the quality of the above.

If you were looking into the last alternative, you would be looking into a DVDO scaler, maybe an iScan HD, HD+ or VP30.

*I* would use an analogue transcoder, enjoy the fantastic quality the Sony offers and live with the slightly narrower AR.

Had no idea the Sony Bravia had such a renowned upscaling engine! I did hook up my newly imported US model backwards compatible PS3(full PS2 hardware components) and HDMI cable and was blown away by the difference compared to composite cables+PS2+same game+TV for PS2 games.

If I were to go the analogue transcoder route, what unit/s would you recommend? Thanks heaps again.

[Fudoh]

whatever you can find. Most likely an Audio Authority transcoder. Unfortunately it's been long since I've seen a cheap one. Standard pricing seems to be around $100 now.

[Malin]

Am I right in assuming then that feeding 480p RGBs from the Toro's SCART output into a transcoder like this http://www.keene.co.uk/syncblaster-comp ... pb-pr.html would still result in a squashed image on the component input of my lcd tv?

[Fudoh]

yes. Your TV sees and displays a proper 4:3 image, while the DC's output in in fact a pillarboxed signal (640 active columns on a 720x480p signal).

[robodude00]

Fudoh, what is your view on the Atlona HdView VGA to HDMI convertor? Does it upscale? How would it compare to the Gefen VGA to HDMI?

[Laughingman.s9]

Fudoh, what is your view on the Atlona HdView VGA to HDMI convertor? Does it upscale? How would it compare to the Gefen VGA to HDMI?

I also want to know this, I've never seen the 2 directly compared.

Btw you can put me in the "get a gefen VGA to DVI" camp.

I also have a Sony and have used an analog transcoder (audio authority 9a60) directly to the Sony and compared it to the gefen. I much prefer the gefen. Image was to squished for my taste using only VGA to component but in my eyes pixel perfect (even if a bit stretched) to me.

[robodude00]

Fudoh, what is your view on the Atlona HdView VGA to HDMI convertor? Does it upscale? How would it compare to the Gefen VGA to HDMI?

I also want to know this, I've never seen the 2 directly compared.

Btw you can put me in the "get a gefen VGA to DVI" camp.

I also have a Sony and have used an analog transcoder (audio authority 9a60) directly to the Sony and compared it to the gefen. I much prefer the gefen. Image was to squished for my taste using only VGA to component but in my eyes pixel perfect (even if a bit stretched) to me.

Would the Gefen VGA to DVI essentially result in the same image quality as the Gefen VGA to HDMI?