Real Hardware + CRT But I Have a Few More Questions

[StriderNo9]

So at the behest of this message board I've been steered in the right direction with using actual hardware (no clone consoles) and getting a CRT(Sony Trinitron), but now I have a few more questions:

My TV doesn't have a SCART port but I've decided to find a SCART cable for my SNES and my Genesis (BTW I have a model 2, does that support SCART without a mod?) And then I need to find a SCART to Component adapter. Anything recommended? Also, this may be a silly question, I only have one component port on my TV so ideally the adapter would be connected via component and when I play my consoles I'd just have to plug in the right SCART cable into it for it to work, but how will sound be handled? Do SCART cables support sound? Ideally I'd like to find an adapter that has RCA ports so I can leave those permanently connected to the TV as well. Does that type of adapter exist?

[Josh128]

For the RGB to component conversion, the below box works perfectly with no added lag. SCART does pass sound . Youll either need to mod it with RCAs out (recommended) to get audio out or buy a SCART audio breakout box (NOT recommended, mine was shoddy as hell).

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-SCART-RGB-t ... 564f2d3121

or

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ananlog-Scart-R ... 3a7ce0016a

The audio extractor can be found below, but there are cheaper ones on Ebay, I think I paid $5 for mine.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Scart-to-Audio- ... 4d2e1f690c

I use the cheaper one, and its been absolutely rock solid, beautiful picture out. Many photos of its output to my plasma on the F4500 thread here.

So you are not the guy who posted in the F4500 thread at the AVSForums?

[StriderNo9]

LOL, sorry that wasn't me. But whoa, thanks for all the info and links. I'll be connecting all this to my CRT so I'm not too worried about lag but still that was super helpful.

This is is sort of my first time really thinking about this situation with my retro collection. I feel like I am over complicating things a bit.

[Josh128]

LOL, sorry that wasn't me. But whoa, thanks for all the info and links. I'll be connecting all this to my CRT so I'm not too worried about lag but still that was super helpful.

This is is sort of my first time really thinking about this situation with my retro collection. I feel like I am over complicating things a bit.

With NES and Genesis, RGB is SOOO worth it. With them, composite on a TV with a good comb filter would be a 5/10, RGB would be 10/10.

On N64 and SNES, PS1 and DC on up, if you have S-Video, RGB is only a very minimal step up. Like, if RF is a 3/10, composite is a 6/10, SVideo is a 9/10 and RGB is a 10/10.

Without a doubt, the NES and Genesis benefit the most. Im not sure about the Model 2 Genesis, but the model 1 comes standard with RGB out! Unfortunately, the NES is extremely complicated to mod for RGB compared to all the others I mentioned. Unless you have pretty good understanding of basic electronics and at least some soldering ability, you may be better off paying someone to do the mod for you.

[Xan]

I think I already mentioned this in another thread, but I completely disagree with you here

It's a simple fact that the NES and Genesis are about the only two consoles where composite actually has its advantages that RGB can't offer though (native color palette on NES, transparency effects on Genesis).

[Xyga]

transparency effects on Genesis

And this I do not agree with.

Because it's a bad tradeoff, for a few lousy pseudo-transparency tricks you lose an overall immensely better picture presentation.
Composhit, even with the best encoder free from all possible interferences, kills the colors and details.
I've experienced it myself after reading all the fuss on sega-16, and it's really not worth it.

It's like those people who still beg for 'NTSC effect' simulation in emulators (actually horrible bleed, banding and blur crap) you know what ? They're exclusively American, and the games with graphical design relying on those blending effects; mostly US and few Euro games.
This is a case of opinion bias on a technology (we nerds do that sort of thing, don't we?)
Still to this day few of these people have experienced RGB on their gaming systems as common thing (when Europigs have actually experienced both composhit and RGB for decades), and because it's still a pain to get proper equipment in America, retrogamers over there have somehow come to the point of trying to find arguments in favor to composite and s-video...

Okay there may a couple good points about composite and s-video when you really do some research, but that's a couple against a crowd of even greater good points in favor of RGB.
By what forums rhetoric magic that happened in recent years, did a single isolated fact make the MD's composite superior to RGB ?
The MD's RGB is vastly superior period. It's by far the best choice for that console, and no biased hype over one truth will magically change the truth.

Sorry for the tone of this post it's not directly against you Xan, but I've read too much BS about the so-called superior-to-rgb composhit of the MD and I'm sick of people who initiate fallacious stuff like that and so easily get plenty of followers spreading those for them over the nets.
I don't know where it started, I sincerely hope it's not really sega-16 because that would be the one really stupid thing ever coming from their community.

[ApolloBoy]

It's a simple fact that the NES and Genesis are about the only two consoles where composite actually has its advantages that RGB can't offer though (native color palette on NES, transparency effects on Genesis).

You know the NESRGB has the original color palette available right? It may not be quite exactly the same but it's very close. Xyga explained the whole issue with the Genesis/MD pretty well so I won't reiterate what he said.

[BazookaBen]

For RGB to component, what I use is the Audio Authority 9a60. The results look really good to me, and later when I got a PVM I compared the AA with straight RGB and couldn't tell a difference.

http://www.audioauthority.com/product_details/9A60

Of course, if you have a SCART cable for your Genesis, you'll need a SCART>VGA adapter.

Or you could just do what I did and hack a Genesis cable and attach a VGA connector to it. Takes soldering and patience, though.

[Josh128]

I think I already mentioned this in another thread, but I completely disagree with you here

It's a simple fact that the NES and Genesis are about the only two consoles where composite actually has its advantages that RGB can't offer though (native color palette on NES, transparency effects on Genesis).

lol Xan, indeed you have a unique taste in visual preferences my friend.

Not exactly sure about the transparency issues you speak of on the Genesis, or the PAL version you are used to, but here in the USA the composite of the Genesis = the definition of broken. Straight off the bat there is a strange dithering effect on ALL horizontally scrolling graphics that has just baffled me ever since I was a kid, as the NES and SNES simply dont exhibit such artifacts. RGB eradicates the effect and gives a crystal clear picture.

As for the NES, go ahead and try composite on your F4500 and report back how cool it looks.

[Josh128]

For RGB to component, what I use is the Audio Authority 9a60. The results look really good to me, and later when I got a PVM I compared the AA with straight RGB and couldn't tell a difference.

http://www.audioauthority.com/product_details/9A60

Of course, if you have a SCART cable for your Genesis, you'll need a SCART>VGA adapter.

Or you could just do what I did and hack a Genesis cable and attach a VGA connector to it. Takes soldering and patience, though.

Just to add to this-- indeed the AA 9a60 is a quality product and will transcode 240p RGBs or 480p RGBHV to component, and it looks fantastic. As a matter of fact I had my DC running 240p SF3 through RGB > Component on my CSY2100 clone, when I decided to unplug the SCART cable on the fly and plug the VGA cable to the console, then to the 9A60. It gave me perfect 240p over the VGA cable!

The real eye opener though was how identical the 240p SF3 looked on each box! The 9A60 looked absolutely identical in color and clarity to the CSY clone! So really and truly he would get identical results to the 9a60 and wouldnt have to buy a SCART to VGA cable if he just went with the CSY clone.

On the other hand, if he had a DC or a PC with VGA only out he needed to connect, it would be a no brainer-- IF he were connecting to an HDTV. He stated that hes connecting to an SD CRT though, so the extra $40-$50 over the CSY-2100 clone for the AA box is kind of a waste, seeing that it they have identical visual quality and the 9a60 wont be able to flex its 480p muscle...

[BazookaBen]

So really and truly he would get identical results to the 9a60

Good to know. The CSY is certainly easier to find these days.

EDIT: And I just read the CSY can accept composite video as sync. I have no idea if the AA 9A60 can, but I wouldn't bet on it.

[Xan]

Well I never stated that these transparency effects make composite better than RGB on the Genesis, they certainly don't for me, but it's a simple fact that some developers used those tricks to work around the limited color palette of the console. The SNES on the other hand had a much richer color palette and no need for all of this, so I don't get the "S-Video is nearly equal to RGB" statement for that console. The well-known retrorgb comparison (which I probably posted about 10 times by now) illustrates my point well enough, and that's usually the case for all later consoles with larger color palettes as well.

[Josh128]

So really and truly he would get identical results to the 9a60

Good to know. The CSY is certainly easier to find these days.

EDIT: And I just read the CSY can accept composite video as sync. I have no idea if the AA 9A60 can, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Absolutely-- Im currently running composite video (PPUV) as sync for my NESRGB because my Keene SCART Commander hates the NESRGBs composite sync output-- the CSY clone handles it perfectly (no jailbars/lines), though with the N64 you'll get the crosshatch if you use composite video as sync.

So yeah, its a wonderful little box and Im a big fan of its price/performance.

[Josh128]

Well I never stated that these transparency effects make composite better than RGB on the Genesis, they certainly don't for me, but it's a simple fact that some developers used those tricks to work around the limited color palette of the console. The SNES on the other hand had a much richer color palette and no need for all of this, so I don't get the "S-Video is nearly equal to RGB" statement for that console. The well-known retrorgb comparison (which I probably posted about 10 times by now) illustrates my point well enough, and that's usually the case for all later consoles with larger color palettes as well.

Well, I just posted some SNES SVideo pictures on my FD Trinitron Wega in the thread I started a few days ago. When I build up the courage, Ill hook my SNES mini through RGB to it and we'll see just how much better it is-- Ive already compared the two on my N64 and though I think I was using sync on composite video at the time, the picture clarity was virtually identical. The only real difference was better color saturation on the RGB.

Im not claiming S-Video is as good as RGBs-- just really, really close, especially on SNES and N64. Now you got me wanting to see RGB on the Trinitron...

[Xyga]

Well I never stated that these transparency effects make composite better than RGB on the Genesis, they certainly don't for me, but it's a simple fact that some developers used those tricks to work around the limited color palette of the console.

What I meant is that unfortunately since this has popped up on the nets it is how people interpret it "as intended by the developers" is the kind of statement that will have a strong impact on misinformed minds.
One fact becomes the whole and single truth.

The blending thing is true, yes, but for most games it's effective only in parts (waterfalls, mist, stuff like that).

(since the pic is small the overall loss of clarity isn't obvious, but in reality it's dreadful)
Giving up on the fantastic clarity of RGB for so little advantage is a bad idea.
The best of the MD library is made much more of fine pixel art than dithered crap, no matter the lack of colors, it still looks much better on RGB.

Well, one could be a fan of mostly the America-produced library of the MD/GEN, dithering-heavy (I mean HEAVY), and actually somehow benefit from a composite connection.
Yeah, so who's got a passion for EA sports games ?

[Xan]

Well, I just posted some SNES SVideo pictures on my FD Trinitron Wega in the thread I started a few days ago. When I build up the courage, Ill hook my SNES mini through RGB to it and we'll see just how much better it is-- Ive already compared the two on my N64 and though I think I was using sync on composite video at the time, the picture clarity was virtually identical. The only real difference was better color saturation on the RGB.

I've seen your pictures, and to be honest, I thought right away that SMW title screen looks quite desaturated. When I got my PVM I used S-Video for a short while with the PSX and thought it looked great, and it certainly did in terms of sharpness and image stability, but RGB was a huge improvement as far as color fidelity went. It really has the biggest effect on games with bright and saturated colors, I think.

[Ed Oscuro]

looks quite desaturated.

With the benefit of a camera of unknown color balance to record it, and a monitor of unknown color reproduction abilities to compare with..? Side-by-side the S-Video images can look better, but that doesn't mean that they actually have great saturation. They may be incredibly oversaturated and the normal RGB looks just fine.

In any case saturation is something that is really easy to get used to. The only time component input saturation should be a problem on a late model FD Trinitron is in the case of the red push.