The Pinball Thread

[m.sniffles.esq]

If you haven't checked out Zaccaria Pinball yet, totally do so.

Thanks for the recommendation. I was unaware of this collection, and being an American, generally unaware of most of the tables.

The pricing is certainly... involved. But I just got the pack that gives you all the original solid state tables for $15, and am pretty happy with it.

[Jeneki]

Zaccaria is a cool collection and has a much different feel than stuff like Pinball Arcade or FX. Definitely from a different place and time, with more emphasis on drop targets and a gentler slope so the ball moves and bounces differently.

Last summer I used one of the Zaccaria pins to teach a nephew about modes in pinball. On Black Belt Remake, any time you start a game mode all of the lights go out except the shot you need to make to advance the mode. This eliminates all of the distractions and makes it super obvious what you need to do; really helps newbies grasp how pinball modes work.

[BrianC]

I think I actually played a Zacarria pin, either at Pinball Hall of Fame in Vegas, or Flippers in NC. I remember it having an odd ramp and an upper playfield. Probably Farfalla. Definitely not something you see every day in the US.

[m.sniffles.esq]

The person who has that collection housed in the weird laser tag facility in Pennsylvania (where PAPA is held) has a few Zacarria tables, which is the only place I've seen any other than couple shredded ones popping up at auction.

They're super '70s, but that's kind of what I'm digging about them. Even that Williams Pinball HoF collection skimped of the '70s tables.

[BryanM]

World Flipper going end of service. Guess pinball doesn't make a good foundation for an incremental game people are expected to touch every single day. Hopefully the fans will preserve it like they did with Dragalia Lost. Almost the whole market is a real "pay to own nothing" in the most literal sense.

[Lander]

Demon's Tilt caught my eye after years of passing up pinball as simple mechanical fare, and pinball video games as akin to oversaturated samey sports titles.

I was a fool!

Perhaps the virtual aspect and if you ain't tilting, you ain't trying angle is what it took - it's overpowered as hell next to the real thing, but finally makes sense as the mid-flight player agency I was always too scared to try on an actual table

And good pinball looks to be the missing link in a set of design patterns I consider to be excellent: A game as a singular self-contained playground, the stage as a primary design element rather than merely framing for core mechanics, and distinctness to every mechanism.

Fascinating! Thoughtful layout and puzzling layers of scoring system seem the stock and trade of the genre, given that ball physics are a necessary constant, and the stuff around them is what has to stand out.

It gets me thinking on the legacy of that DNA. Tony Hawk seems the most purebred of the lineage, seeing as it's all about movement (check) around stages whose structure and mechanisms are of primary focus (check), to gain score through use of specific routes and setpieces (check) in combination with avatar-specific actions (not check) to drive a nontrivial point system (check), with lengthy sessions (check) and failure suspended through skillful play (check-ish, if you frame dropping combo as draining out, and the timer as a very long and forgiving save mechanism.)

And of course, there's Sonic, but that seems to be interpreting the core physics, gimmicks, and loop-de-loops more than it is the cool stuff that's built around it. If anything, NiGHTS is what that succeeds at taking the rest of those ideas and turning them into a tangible not-pinball videogame.
Though there was some 32X prototype footage that seemed to hit the vibe - blocky Sonic running around a small playground stage and navigating setpieces with a pinball-esque HUD ticker. Barely looks like a game at first glance, but it suddenly makes a lot more sense.

Anyway, back to grinding out HERMIT so I can be fearless in the face of death.

Guess pinball doesn't make a good foundation for an incremental game people are expected to touch every single day. Hopefully the fans will preserve it like they did with Dragalia Lost. Almost the whole market is a real "pay to own nothing" in the most literal sense.

Prize tickets for the waifu printer except you don't really even get a poster.
Seems silly really, seeing as incremental skill gains from playing a little bit each day are a key part of the post-arcade arcade experience. But alas, the horse is dead.

[BryanM]

I'm surprised that I think Cave's Gothic wa Mahou Otome still seems alive. Most games in the market are more akin to actually-cool fantasy football or gardening, ain't nobody got time for 10+ minutes of daily active play.

Video game sports titles where you're not playing as a manager are fairly ass because they can't recreate what's fun about sports in real life - moving your body around. You can't throw a football by pushing a button, you swing your arm and open your hand a certain way. Vidya sports can't compare to tossing a ball against a wall.

Controlling vehicles are an actually great simulation of the real thing, and pinball is definitely closer to that. Had lots of fun with vidya pinball over the years, even if they're not as tactile as the real thing. All computers seemed to have at least one pinball game of one kind or another installed by default back in the day. In a just world all new consoles would have a stock game like that available as a default..

[m.sniffles.esq]

Not to be that guy, but if you enjoy Demons Tilt, you really should seek out Devil's Crush/Dragon's Fury

I enjoyed Demon's Tilt, but it unfortunately never got beyond a 'lesser than' tribute/knock-off of the OG (in both larger and smaller ways)

[Lander]

Had a Billionaire's Club run last night - 1.5bn points

~700 on the leaderboard is small potatoes, but it's a really cool feeling to loop the table and surface into that second stratum of scoring. Intimidating too, since your score gain plummets back down to barely making a dent until everything is rolling again.
Probably a good opportunity to give the EX table a look, since breaking that high score is going to be a tall order!

I'm interested to hear more about how it measures up to Devil Crash from an experienced player; I played a bit of the MD version for comparison, but so far am not really seeing it.

The aesthetic and multi-chamber layout are cool, particularly the R-Type one, but I can't for the life of me figure out how bump is supposed to help if you can't aim it. The flippers are generously-sized, but it feels like there's a lot less agency in the absence of easy side transfers and semireliable saves from a side-chute or down-the-middle drain. Perhaps I'm already spoiled!

And while it's not fair to compare DT's 4K / 144Hz / Tate presentation and modern physics sim to what can be achieved on a Mega Drive, I do miss the sensory overload of having to figure out what muffled nonsense the machine is shouting at me, and whether it's pertinent or just fun flavour

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Demon's Tilt caught my eye after years of passing up pinball as simple mechanical fare, and pinball video games as akin to oversaturated samey sports titles.

Don't forget, its music is also composed by the forum's own EmperorIng (who's been cranking out some impressive Giga Wing scores lately across the series). It's got real pedigree.

[m.sniffles.esq]

Pardon me, I obviously meant "but it unfortunately never got beyond a 'lesser than' tribute/knock-off of the OG (in both larger and smaller ways. But not the incredible soundtrack, which far surpasses the original)"

(seriously though, DC's soundtrack isn't it's best quality by a long shot)

If I could boil down what I find lacking in Demon's Tilt in one issue, it's the ball itself. It's so floaty, soft, and weightless. Just saying that aloud makes me feel nuts. How could something on the Genesis/TG-16 have better physics than a modern (albeit purposely antiqued) title? And yet...

[BryanM]

It's all just numbers and if you use bad numbers, well.

I also had a Scooby hunch it was made in Unity because like everything is made in Unity. And when I checked, yep, Unity. Not exactly a pro when it comes to precision physics. (I'll always crap on Unity. A ten minute long stage in ArKnights takes like 40 seconds to load, like it's a Playstation 2 trying to load the entire world of Grand Theft Auto San Andreas into RAM. There's absolutely no reason for it to take more than five seconds, man... If they're only going to release a game on one platform, there's no harm in learning OpenGL, dude...)

(It's really ridiculous. Memento Mori is barebones as it comes, but it reportedly has excellent loadtimes that don't take forever. For something that's an incremental daily-check in game, that's one of the most important features! While the most expensive Unity game ever made (and one of the top most expensive games of all time), Genshin Impact, at least uses Unity for its ACTUAL purpose: porting the freakin' thing across mobile, console, and PC! Why would one use a screwdriver if you're not trying to turn a screw!)

(Sorry to rant, this entire thing just makes me feel like I'm taking crazy pills.)

A lot of these games sell based on their art, concept, and music. Technical craftsmanship of the programming and mathy aspects... tends to be a bonus rather than necessity. See also: the technical mess that is the latest mainline Pokemon games.

[m.sniffles.esq]

I have noticed that Demon's Tilt takes a weirdly long time to load. Especially considering it seems like the entire thing could fit on a Genesis cart.

But like everyone, I took a gander at Unity once everyone was declaring it the best thing since sliced bread. And yeah, I was sort of amazed that it seemed you could produce an actual, multi-platform game using something that operated like a deluxe version of "Whatever Construction Set" on the c64

But at the same time, I have to admit the whole "They're just giving this away? WHY??" question was bugging me. Even when they started giving Pro Tools away in the early '00s, it was a usable, but pretty crippled version of it.


I guess we all know why, now.

[Lander]

Don't forget, its music is also composed by the forum's own EmperorIng (who's been cranking out some impressive Giga Wing scores lately across the series). It's got real pedigree.

Whoa, cool! A damn fine soundtrack it is too, authentic and memorable.
Guess I know who to hit up if I ever find myself in posession of a respectable audio budget

If I could boil down what I find lacking in Demon's Tilt in one issue, it's the ball itself. It's so floaty, soft, and weightless. Just saying that aloud makes me feel nuts. How could something on the Genesis/TG-16 have better physics than a modern (albeit purposely antiqued) title? And yet...

Nah, I can respect that. One thing that struck me when perusing virtual versions of real tables is that the ball tends to be a big chunky bugger - presumably to keep it on-surface and make nudging less effective - but the one in Demon's Tilt is small and light like a ball bearing.

Though I wouldn't call it outright worse. Inauthentic, perhaps, but it leans into it alongside the mechanically-infeasible stuff like bullet patterns and overlapping targets to create an interesting post-arcade experience. Though I wouldn't mind seeing the bullets gone from tier 1, or removed from physics collision; that table is already dangerous enough without having to wait out a wall of potentially-fatal bounces.

I played a few more rounds of Devil Crash, and the fast ball setting seems more fun. I also really like that it recolors the ball to signify clearing a bonus round; that's something I thought Demon's Tilt should do, since one of the main sources of multiplier is forging it on the anvil.

I also had a Scooby hunch it was made in Unity because like everything is made in Unity. And when I checked, yep, Unity. Not exactly a pro when it comes to precision physics. (I'll always crap on Unity. A ten minute long stage in ArKnights takes like 40 seconds to load, like it's a Playstation 2 trying to load the entire world of Grand Theft Auto San Andreas into RAM. There's absolutely no reason for it to take more than five seconds, man... If they're only going to release a game on one platform, there's no harm in learning OpenGL, dude...)

A friend of mine freelanced optimizing a Unity point-and-click game, and his anecdote to that effect was "fuck sake, the artists just plugged in their photoshop layers and called it a day" - enough giant textures to bring a time-sliced asset loader to its knees on weak hardware.

I suspect that's the problem in most cases; the engine is so focused on keeping the loading screen (and whatever game world is already hiding behind it wasting CPU cycles) responsive, that the loading process itself gets a piffly amount of resources to work with. Capping framerate works as a sledgehammer solution in some cases, but there's no substitute for doing it right™.

A lot of these games sell based on their art, concept, and music. Technical craftsmanship of the programming and mathy aspects... tends to be a bonus rather than necessity. See also: the technical mess that is the latest mainline Pokemon games.

As it always was, and probably will be for the forseeable. If it were up to the mathematicians we'd have code that would never crash, true standardization in software design, and a distinct lack of billion-dollar mistakes arising from nullable values. But the power of Intel won by a tangible margin, so these days they have to get by on building compilers.

Now, excuse me, must get back to sculpting the Michaelangelo out of lambda calculus while cursing under my breath about game jams and tangible products.

[BrianC]

Pardon me, I obviously meant "but it unfortunately never got beyond a 'lesser than' tribute/knock-off of the OG (in both larger and smaller ways. But not the incredible soundtrack, which far surpasses the original)"

(seriously though, DC's soundtrack isn't it's best quality by a long shot)

I dunno, Demon's Tilt's sound track is incredible, but Technosoft's arrangement of the Devil Crash soundtrack has some of the best FM on the Megadrive. Not to mention the passwords to use music from Herzog Zwei, Thunder Force III, Thunder Force II, Elemental Master, and even an obscure Technosoft RPG.

Don't forget Demon's Tilt has a follow up, Xenotilt. It's currently in early access but includes a full-fledged table similar to the one in Demon's Tilt with some new features (mounted guns on playfield that shoot at some enemies when the ball is held by a flipper). It's currently lacking EX mode, but the main table is a blast to play if you enjoyed Demon's Tilt.

[BryanM]

I have noticed that Demon's Tilt takes a weirdly long time to load. Especially considering it seems like the entire thing could fit on a Genesis cart.

My favorite are the retro games (super retro, like Pooyan/Galaga/Zoo Keeper/etc) with about 0.5 MB of PNGs and 10 MB of music. With a few stages with no more than a few MB worth of logic. And the entire thing uses up 400+ MB of disk space.

If it were up to the mathematicians we'd have code that would never crash, true standardization in software design, and a distinct lack of billion-dollar mistakes arising from nullable values.

I'm as lazy and half-assed as they come, doing only what is necessary to put up the facade, but there has to be some limits, man! It shouldn't feel like Adobe Flash!

I choose to believe it's this way only because bullshit phones have bullshit compatibility issues, despite having no experience or knowledge on that subject whatsoever. I guess that's the real beauty of consoles - if it works it works. No need to have "I hate computers" moments, just old "I hate this stupid console" moments.

[m.sniffles.esq]

I dunno, Demon's Tilt's sound track is incredible, but Technosoft's arrangement of the Devil Crash soundtrack has some of the best FM on the Megadrive.

I'll say this, the music itself is okay. I don't love it, but it's not bad by any stretch

But with that said, they somehow manage to avoid the 'one khz wall' of ear-bleeding shrillness the 2612 is famous for, either through voodoo, fairy dust, or satanic ritual. It's--dare I say--'rich', even. And to that, I tip my hat.

[Sengoku Strider]

The person who has that collection housed in the weird laser tag facility in Pennsylvania (where PAPA is held) has a few Zacarria tables, which is the only place I've seen any other than couple shredded ones popping up at auction.

They're super '70s, but that's kind of what I'm digging about them. Even that Williams Pinball HoF collection skimped of the '70s tables.

That's what I love most about them. The artwork on some of those tables have some emblematic 1960s & 70s styles that are just otherwise lost to time, even purely as a cultural time capsule the collection is worth a test drive.

Not to be that guy, but if you enjoy Demons Tilt, you really should seek out Devil's Crush/Dragon's Fury

I don't think you need to feel apologetic about that take; not only has Devil's Crush been held up as the gold standard for video pinball since the day it came out, its predecessor and the originator of the series, Alien Crush, was a Compile joint. Solid recommendation to a guy with a Randar/Lander avatar.

[BrianC]

I don't think you need to feel apologetic about that take; not only has Devil's Crush been held up as the gold standard for video pinball since the day it came out, its predecessor and the originator of the series, Alien Crush, was a Compile joint. Solid recommendation to a guy with a Randar/Lander avatar.

PCE Devil Crash (MD port is Technosoft) and SFC Jaki Crush are also Compile.

[Sengoku Strider]

I don't think you need to feel apologetic about that take; not only has Devil's Crush been held up as the gold standard for video pinball since the day it came out, its predecessor and the originator of the series, Alien Crush, was a Compile joint. Solid recommendation to a guy with a Randar/Lander avatar.

PCE Devil Crash (MD port is Technosoft) and SFC Jaki Crush are also Compile.

Hm, I thought I'd heard Devil's was a Red Co. production, but Japanese wiki credits both Compile & Red.

[BrianC]

I don't think you need to feel apologetic about that take; not only has Devil's Crush been held up as the gold standard for video pinball since the day it came out, its predecessor and the originator of the series, Alien Crush, was a Compile joint. Solid recommendation to a guy with a Randar/Lander avatar.

PCE Devil Crash (MD port is Technosoft) and SFC Jaki Crush are also Compile.

Hm, I thought I'd heard Devil's was a Red Co. production, but Japanese wiki credits both Compile & Red.

Most Red games had other developers involved. I used to think they were the main developer of the Bonk games, before I found out more about the developers involved with the games (I know staff from Ai and Atlus were involved with a couple of them and the Programmer of Mr. Do was involved with PC Genjin 2 and GB Genjin). PCE Devil's Crush definitely has a composer from Compile and probably other staff too. All of these games have something to do with Naxat, as well. Jaki Crush has a hint towards Compile on the high score screen. The high scores are programming languages like ASM and CPP.

Even Alien Crush is somewhat ambiguous due to the lack of credits. JP version only has Naxat on the title screen, but the US version only has NEC and Hudson Soft. Compile jingle is hidden in one of the bonus rounds, so that's definitely a clear sign they were involved with it.

The composer for both Alien Crush and PCE Devil's Crush was Toshiaki Sakoda according to MobyGames. He left Compile for Sting.

[Lander]

Xenotilt looks awesome. They've been backporting fixes and improvements like lag reduction back to Demon's Tilt too, which is a nice move.
In a sense I'm glad it's still in EA, since that makes it easier to hold out and get the most out of its predecessor

I had a crack at the EX table, and the bonus rooms and new rules are a cool addition; new layers of mystery to pick apart. The smaller flippers change up all the tried-and-true shot trajectories too, which is refreshing, but the extended side drains - especially on tier 1 - feel like the one-step-too-far school of design. I guess it's meant to offset the bonus rooms acting as run-extending free balls, but is a harsh adjustment.

And indeed, the Crush series is a solid recommend - I may be critical of it, but I'm not trying to tear a strip off an institution of video pinball or anything just vocalizing my experience in the hope of understanding what makes it so loved.

My favorite are the retro games (super retro, like Pooyan/Galaga/Zoo Keeper/etc) with about 0.5 MB of PNGs and 10 MB of music. With a few stages with no more than a few MB worth of logic. And the entire thing uses up 400+ MB of disk space.

Publisher ident splash videos are the worst for that. Massive filesize compared to the data of actual value, and forcible time wasting on every boot!

[Jeneki]

New stuff showing up in my area:

The Big Lebowski. It's definitely an eye catcher, although possibly a bit over engineered. There's a carpet that rolls out as you hit it, bowling ally under the playfield, additional upper playfield, and plenty of nice looking extras such as the drink glass. At first this makes it feel crowded even though the middle is wide open, just takes some getting used to. Cool game that I'll definitely come back to, but looks terrifying to maintain.

Galactic Tank Force. Interesting concept, stop aliens from stealing cows so you can make ice cream, or something. There's a big tank toy in the middle of the table with stationary targets, that bounces the ball flying over the top of the flippers. Saw it happen three times across a few games haha, I wonder if this is a common problem on this pin. Thankfully the game modes I played want me to aim for side shots instead, so it can be avoided.

[m.sniffles.esq]

Galactic Tank Force. Interesting concept, stop aliens from stealing cows so you can make ice cream, or something.

So it's American's Attack from Mars sequel like Houdini was their Theater of Magic?

Lebow$ki is okay (what's up with that dollar sign thing? Is he a rapper? Or is it something from the movie I'm forgetting) kind of reminds me of White Water but loaded with Stern toys (full disclosure: White Water was never my fave). The carpet is a neat idea, although showing full 10 second movie clips on the screen will probably get real old, real fast. I do like the multiple modes on the bowling play-field (regular bowling, pin whack-a-mole, etc).

[Austin]

New stuff showing up in my area:

The Big Lebowski. It's definitely an eye catcher, although possibly a bit over engineered. There's a carpet that rolls out as you hit it, bowling ally under the playfield, additional upper playfield, and plenty of nice looking extras such as the drink glass. At first this makes it feel crowded even though the middle is wide open, just takes some getting used to. Cool game that I'll definitely come back to, but looks terrifying to maintain.

Galactic Tank Force. Interesting concept, stop aliens from stealing cows so you can make ice cream, or something. There's a big tank toy in the middle of the table with stationary targets, that bounces the ball flying over the top of the flippers. Saw it happen three times across a few games haha, I wonder if this is a common problem on this pin. Thankfully the game modes I played want me to aim for side shots instead, so it can be avoided.

I'll be crossing my fingers that Lebowski holds up on location for you. We had one nearby for a few years and the game was down all the time, or major features weren't working right. The owners got fed up with it and got rid of it earlier this year. It's a fun game when it's working well and is about as close in look and feel to a late '90s Williams/Bally game as you can get these days outside of the Chicago Gaming remakes.

Galactic Tank Force has the potential to be fun just based on the layout itself as it is a bit more of a traditional fan setup unlike some other American Pinball games. The animations and theme didn't really do it for me, but the big issue for me was the one on location nearby was leaning hard left and the right flipper was super weak, so hitting the left orbit or left ramp was ridiculously difficult. The tank is a death shot as well and the lights on the playfield aren't choreographed very well, often making you think ball save is on when it is actually not. We also had scoring bugs on our machine--someone just randomly ended up with 40 billion points out of nowhere (when averages were in the 500 million to 1 billion range). I'm not sure if that's been addressed in software yet. Like with Lebowski, it also had reliability issues and has since been taken out of that location as well.

[m.sniffles.esq]

"The Thing" (as in 80s version, not Thing From Another Planet) Pinball

Voice actor does a good Kurt Russell impression, table looks boring though...

[Despatche]

Alright, so what the heck is Kyuutenkai exactly? It looks like whoever at Technosoft really liked what they were doing with Devil Crash MD and wanted to make their own game. The end result is that it's basically a 32-bit entry in that series. Is there something more to this? Maybe it was meant to be a Crush game all along and a bunch of Compile employees took this game over to Technosoft? I mean, God knows how many stories like that I've heard over the years now. Does anyone have better answers?

I mean, I guess I could whine here about how Sega seems hellbent on never allowing Sonic to have an actual physical pinball machine, but I thought this was more interesting.

[Austin]

Sega would 100% allow a Sonic-themed pinball machine if someone would be up for licensing/paying for it. Stern Pinball would be the most likely candidate for such a project, but that's all up to them. They've got a lot of themes in mind at all times and with the fact they only make two or three new games a year at this point, it's hard to say if they think Sonic would be a big enough draw. That said, the Sonic theme is ripe for pinball, with all its ramps and loops, and I honestly can't believe Sega Pinball themselves (who transitioned into what is now Stern Pinball) didn't do it back in the '90s. Sonic only got cameos on the Sega pins of the '90s.

[Despatche]

The movies have been doing pretty well, so putting out a movie-themed pin would have been easy mode. I'd like to believe everyone's just waiting for the third movie, but honestly I'm not expecting to actually see one at this point. Ideally, it'd be done before Jim Carrey properly decides to retire...

[m.sniffles.esq]

I honestly can't believe Sega Pinball themselves (who transitioned into what is now Stern Pinball) didn't do it back in the '90s. Sonic only got cameos on the Sega pins of the '90s.

Proof that Sega wasn't stupid enough to sully the brand in such a manner