The Pinball Thread

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Proof that Sega wasn't stupid enough to sully the brand in such a manner

This is worded ambiguously; do you mean Sega's flagship character, Sonic, would somehow sully Sega's brand image if he had a themed pinball table? Or that Sonic game branding would somehow be negatively impacted if he was given a pinball table spinoff?

Either way, there already was a Sonic video pinball game released called Sonic Spinball as well as a second game, Sonic Pinball Party for GBA, so clearly Sega isn't worried about using Sonic for pinball releases, at least not digital ones.

[Despatche]

At this point, I'm completely sure that pretty much any historical or current pinball developer could make a Sonic table and it would be reviewed as one of the best games with Sonic in it today. Yes, even early '90s Gottlieb, who everyone loves to hate. Any such creation would very much not "sully the brand".

[m.sniffles.esq]

This is worded ambiguously; do you mean Sega's flagship character, Sonic, would somehow sully Sega's brand image if he had a themed pinball table? Or that Sonic game branding would somehow be negatively impacted if he was given a pinball table spinoff?

Oh sorry, I just assumed it was universally understood/accepted that Sega/Stern weren't know for their high quality output. And if Sega were to license the ip, they'd prefer someone... uh... better do the honors.

[Despatche]

I. What. No. That's not true at all. The vast majority of the pinball community pretty much relies on Stern, regardless of what you might be led to believe. If Stern goes under, the entire "pinball renaissance" will too. Like, Stern has been spending the last few years alone putting out megatons like TMNT and Venom and Godzilla and Jurassic Park and Foo Fighters and all those other recent games people keep going on about. Idiots crowding around the IPDB and Pinside reviews can stay mad, there are some seriously bullshit reviews that get submitted to those places with absolutely no oversight.

[m.sniffles.esq]

Ever have one of those days where you're pretty goddamn sure you're attempting to communicate in standard written English, and yet...?

anyway

Oh sorry, I just assumed it was universally understood/accepted that Sega/Stern weren't know for their high quality output.

Maker of such infallible classics such as Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, Space Jam, and everyone's fave Baywatch

The only community that has ever relied on them are the promotional departments of various television and movie studios, as they supplied them with shitty advertisements for their shitty entertainments,

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Ever have one of those days where you're pretty goddamn sure you're attempting to communicate in standard written English, and yet...?

Your communication skills are inversely correlated with how much snark you seem to put in your posts at times.

Maker of such infallible classics such as Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, Space Jam, and everyone's fave Baywatch

Your sarcasm rather falls flat considering you're jeopardizing your own argument in the same breath. The websites you've linked to have two of those tables rated at 7.9 / 10 and one at 7.2 / 10. Hardly as awful as you've portrayed by any means.

I suck at pinball and don't play it that much, but for what it's worth a local arcade has a few pinball tables including the Godzilla one Despatche mentioned, and it seemed fine. I'm sure hardcore pinball fanatics are more discerning, but reviews online generally seem to be positive.

[Despatche]

Ever have one of those days where you're pretty goddamn sure you're attempting to communicate in standard written English, and yet...?

Okay.

You initially replied to someone talking about Sega Pinball. Randos love to bash Sega Pinball, yet games like Frankenstein, Baywatch, Batman Forever, and so on tend to be cited as pretty decent tables and are commonly found in lineups. I replied with the honest-to-God truth, because the way Sonic fans interact with their series is incredibly unhealthy. You replied, albeit to someone else, with typical "eeeeeveryone hates Sega Pinball"-type rhetoric, and even followed up with a comment that could only possibly apply to the Stern of today. My reply to that is the only way that anyone who's been seeing anything that's been going on with this hobby in the last, what, twenty years could have replied. You then decided to reply with not only the pointless snark I quoted, but also singled out multiple games that people traditionally like, except maybe Space Jam? Also, you have no idea how to use the quote function. Look, the problem's not over here.

I'll be honest, I've never seen a Space Jam, but it's probably a lot better than what those clowns review it. Seriously, the IPDB and Pinside "communities", if you can even call them that, aren't really to be trusted. In particular, that 5balls5cents guy can fuck off, I've seen so many of his trashy reviews over the years, and I don't think he's ever enjoyed a game of pinball in his life. Other pretty good games that have 7.2s on IPDB: Nine Ball, which is godlike; Data East Batman, which is pretty darn good; Bally Star Trek, which is simply a solid example of that era; and of course, freaking Pharaoh, one of the best early '80s Williams. Nobody knows how to rate this shit. Also I can't believe those are all exactly 7.2s, they deserve WAY better, holy shit.

edit: man please don't tell me that you're 5balls5cents or something

[BrianC]

Don't forget Sonic Adventure had a pinball mini game. It wasn't bad, but the timer doesn't stop while it's played.

[m.sniffles.esq]

Yeah, they produced some pretty middle-of-the-road tables. Sega didn't hand any of their ips to the middle-of-the-road department, let alone Sonic.
Which brings us to five posts ago. Anyway...

Don't forget Sonic Adventure had a pinball mini game.

I mean if you want to get technical about it, after Sammy took over they pumped out like 22 Sonic pachinko machines. Those are kinda pinball. They have a ball, flippers, gravity

[BrianC]

Yeah, they produced some pretty middle-of-the-road tables. Sega didn't hand any of their ips to the middle-of-the-road department, let alone Sonic.

They handed their ips to Tiger, including Sonic.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

They handed their ips to Tiger, including Sonic.

They did it THREE times.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veY9633xLIw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fh49apYOW6g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uT47Li7UKcQ

[m.sniffles.esq]

They handed their ips to Tiger, including Sonic.

Yeah, but Tiger rules. Shit, they made the Furby and those shitty LCD game sold TONS. Not to mention, Sega had nothing to do with Tiger so I'm kinda of missing how the two are even comparable.

[BrianC]

They handed their ips to Tiger, including Sonic.

They did it THREE times.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veY9633xLIw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fh49apYOW6g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uT47Li7UKcQ

More than that. Don't forget the game.com with the infamous Sonic Jam, the watch game of Sonic, Sonic Blast handheld, Sonic Underground handheld (yes, this exists, and I saw it in stores. WHY it exists, I have no idea), and that odd Dot Matrix handheld loosely based on Sonic Adventure. Not to mention the non Sonic stuff like Fighters Megamix for game.com. And that line of Sega handhelds that were made by Tiger and had an original Sonic game (Amazing Sonic).

I was under the impression that SEGA Pinball was an independent company owned by SEGA and pretty much did the same thing they did at Data East. You (sniffles) claimed that SEGA didn't hand their IPs to them because they didn't hand ips to medicore dev teams and I used Tiger as an example because they are infamous for not so good handheld games. But if you want an in SEGA example there are those JP only Sonic children's ride things and that Popcorn machine with Sonic.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Sega didn't hand any of their ips to the middle-of-the-road department, let alone Sonic.

Not to mention, Sega had nothing to do with Tiger so I'm kinda of missing how the two are even comparable

Sonic handed their ips to folks like Tiger and Game.com in exchange for money and thus clearly have something to do with them as does any company when receives a fat paycheck in exchange for licensing its characters. This isn't any different from the Nintendo games released on the infamous CD-i.

[Austin]

Sega Pinball games (along with Data East) in the ‘90s were certainly a mixed bag. Both them and Gottlieb were second rate compared to Bally/Williams at the time. However, we’re talking 25 - 30 years ago now. The industry has changed a lot since then and Stern is now the dominant market leader. Their output over the last decade in particular has been excellent.

They’ve got crazy talent on board now and have focused on snapping up actual pinball players and enthusiasts, which is resulting in excellent layouts, rulesets and theme integrations. I’d love to see these guys tackle a popular classic video game theme. Mario, Sonic, whatever. I am sure it would be good.

[m.sniffles.esq]

by BareKnuckleRoo » Tue Nov 21, 2023 4:35 pm
Sonic handed their ips to folks like Tiger and Game.com in exchange for money

by m.sniffles.esq » Tue Nov 21, 2023 2:41 pm
Sega didn't hand any of their ips to the middle-of-the-road department

Sorry, I had no idea about their Tiger and Game.com departments. I'm clearly out of my depth.


^^^^
(Too snarky?)

(Anyyhoo, in case there's one person that actually does care. I have a friend that worked for some periphery Chicago company in the '90s (NOTHING COMPARED TO THE INSIDE KNOWLEDGE IN THIS THREAD, mind you. Shit, I didn't even know Sega owned Tiger) and she seemed to indicate that Sega (partially) funded and distributed the pinball operation and... that's about it. In short, it was less about being an actual competitor and more about fear of leaving money on the table. Of course, I don't know how she would know this given her absolutely peripheral role, but if true, it COULD explain the lack of Vectorman tables)

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Sorry, I had no idea about their Tiger and Game.com departments. I'm clearly out of my depth.

You're shifting the goalposts again in an attempt to dodge the point. Remember that you're the one who said:

Oh sorry, I just assumed it was universally understood/accepted that Sega/Stern weren't know for their high quality output. And if Sega were to license the ip, they'd prefer someone... uh... better do the honors.

Sega sold off its pinball division to Stern in 1999, which has since largely been producing pinball games that have been received well (a point you deliberately ignored and asserted everything they make is mediocre). You're dodging the point about Sega licensing its IP for quick cash grabs all the time by claiming it now only matters if it's an official Sega department or not.

[m.sniffles.esq]

To think, this started with a 14 word joke a day ago...

(also: I have to admit, I was a little preplexed by the choice of metaphors, so I went to wikipedia for clarification

Moving the goalposts (or shifting the goalposts) is a metaphor, derived from goal-based sports, that means to change the rule or criterion (goal) of a process or competition while it is still in progress, in such a way that the new goal offers one side an advantage or disadvantage. Or, when you scan something, comment on it, realize it didn't say what you thought, then blame the writer for your lack of reading comprehension

Okay, I understand now. I was never much of a hockey fan, must be all the white men with sticks...)

[m.sniffles.esq]

I took advantage of the Steam autumn sale to check out XENOTILT: HOSTILE PINBALL ACTION (all caps = theirs), and it's... okay. I mean, it's still in early access and all, but if you've played Demon's Tilt (or Devil's Crush/Dragon's Fury) you pretty much know the deal--as the basic structure is identical--XT:HPA just has a lot more, uh... everything. About every twenty seconds the entire (incredibly busy) play-field is consumed in flame and laser lights. And while the faux-pixel art has been abandoned, the ball is only a slightly brighter hue than the surrounding chaos. Meaning, you have no idea where the fuck it is, quite often. I would wager that attempting to play on a handheld in it's current incarnation would be futile.

Otherwise, it features a complex array of locks, and turrets, and portals, and power grids, and graphs, and stuff. Physics-wise, it feels even lighter, spongier, and less effected by earthly gravity than Demon's Tilt (I checked to be sure I wasn't imagining things), so if this is indeed Unity's problem, that problem is getting worse. However, it's so floaty I can't imagine it being anything other than a purposeful aesthetic choice.

Music, while assuredly incredible (actually, I don't even know if the same person if responsible), isn't all that audible due to the aforementioned constant fireball/laser meltdowns. Like, the few second clips I can hear before something explodes sound okay (although--unlike the graphics--it's still doing the faux-16 bit thing)

tl;dr It's not like I'll be taking advantage of Steam's return policy, but definitely 'I'll re-investigate four or five updates from now' fare

[Lander]

Nice write up - sounds right up my neophyte alley

the ball is only a slightly brighter hue than the surrounding chaos. Meaning, you have no idea where the fuck it is, quite often.

Do you play with the ball trail turned on, assuming that feature made it across? I've found it helpful in Demon's, though it doesn't wholly eliminate those arcade classic I'm dead if I don't find my hitbox Right Now situations.

Otherwise, it features a complex array of locks, and turrets, and portals, and power grids, and graphs, and stuff. Physics-wise, it feels even lighter, spongier, and less effected by earthly gravity than Demon's Tilt (I checked to be sure I wasn't imagining things), so if this is indeed Unity's problem, that problem is getting worse. However, it's so floaty I can't imagine it being anything other than a purposeful aesthetic choice.

It's probably not Unity at this point so much as the parameters being fed into its physics system, unless the ball is clipping through stuff.

Though it does get me wondering how deep the rabbit hole goes with pinball simulation, since physical tables (and presumably accurate recreations thereof) are 3D and involve rolling along a surface, whereas 2D-native ones are just the ball sliding through space.

[m.sniffles.esq]

Do you play with the ball trail turned on, assuming that feature made it across?

Yeah, it's on by default. The problem being--aside from the play-field being very busy with many elements being blue/grey, and the ball being a slightly brighter shade of blue/grey--is that it's often is traveling through very bright, large laser and flame effects, in which cases you lose the ball and it's trail completely.

It's probably not Unity at this point so much as the parameters being fed into its physics system, unless the ball is clipping through stuff.

Though it does get me wondering how deep the rabbit hole goes with pinball simulation, since physical tables (and presumably accurate recreations thereof) are 3D and involve rolling along a surface, whereas 2D-native ones are just the ball sliding through space.

Well, if I remember my Pinball Construction Set for the c64, there were a surprising amount of parameters affecting the physics of 2d pinball sims, all of them noticeable. The thing about how both DT and XT that makes me think it's more conscious decision rather than engine shenanigans, is that the physics around the table feel inconsistent. Flipping feels like you're pushing the ball through water (akin to Sonic jumping while underwater), while many ricochets cause the ball to suddenly dart as if it was jet-powered.

PS And to reiterate, I completely understand I'm playing version .26 or whatever, as it's obviously Demon's Tilt with it's assets find/replaced, and a whole bunch of other shit thrown on top, and that's probably not what version 1.0 will be, and that some things are paintings while others are sculptures

[PC Engine Fan X!]

On Steam, Valve has finally released the Zen Studios "Pinball M" newest pinball game collection with a new "Pinball M - Death Save bundle" for a mere $18.00 usd today, 11/30/2023. The five newest pinball tables are:

Duke Nukem's Big Shot pinball
Dead by Daylight pinball
The Thing pinball (based on the cult favorite 1982 theatrical horror film of the same name)
Chucky's Killer pinball
and a fifth one, Wrath of the Elder Gods - Director's Cut (free fully-fledged pinball title if you d/l the Steam "Pinball M" demo to sate your pinball appetite).

Plays awesome on a Steam Deck setup. Zen Studios plans to release a Switch port of "Pinball M" on 12/28/2023.

This is the first time I've seen a proper "The Thing" licensed pinball game -- it's about damn time that Zen did so! We shouldn't have to wait a mere 41+ years for it but well worth the wait for it alone. As the ol' saying goes: Better later than never, right?

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[m.sniffles.esq]

This is the first time I've seen a proper "The Thing" licensed pinball game -- it's about damn time that Zen did so! We shouldn't have to wait a mere 41+ years for it

Again, not to be 'that guy', but more like 70+

Anywho, I'm waiting on this one, Thing was the only one I saw any extended gameplay from--and, at least from that footage--it looks like a lightly re-skinned Skyrim (which was 'zzzz')

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Yes, if we're referring to the "The Thing from Another World" flick that was the basis/stepping stone for the later 1982 film version. Interesting to learn that actor, Will Arnet, whom plays the "Thing" creature -- it looks like he was set on fire in one particular scene -- quite dangerous indeed.

Back to the pinball thread at hand.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[m.sniffles.esq]

Interesting to learn that actor, Will Arnet, whom plays the "Thing" creature

Spoiler

Vs.

Spoiler

Oh sorry, I was so excited about the Arrested Development/Gunsmoke crossover I forgot what I was going to post. If you watch the developer thing they say that Universal licensed both versions, so that both are represented (which I can tell you're real excited about)

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Yes, I meant the Gunsmoke actor James Arness portrayed as the Thing creature. Wow, that's even better to have Universal Studios license both Thing film IPs to Zen Studios. Thanks for the heads up on that Pinball M tidbit, m.sniffles.esq. That's new news to me.

Holy shit, the Zen Studio The Thing pinball is spot-on with the 1982 film IP in overall font usage of lettering & numerals. They sure went all-out with this 1982 The Thing pinball table staying true to it's film source. Even little FMV clips taken directly from the 1982 film play through-out on the slick scoring portion section. Wow, color me impressed!

Super big grin on my face with the opening FMV clip of the alien spacecraft hurtling towards Earth and leading into the main title scene -- totally fucking ace through-and-through.

Makes me wish that Zen Studios would make a real pinball table of 1982 The Thing. That'd be badass! Or at least get Stern to get it made...hmmm.

There's even a mini flipper table that's playable and is located in front of the Artic Outpost #31 building. How cool is that?

Am currently ranked at #25 ranking on arcade mode of 1982 The Thing pinball game with an overall score of 7,347,335 on the Pinball M leaderboard as of today, 11/30/2023. Am totally super stoked.

First Skill Shot is worth a cool million, the 2nd Skill Shot's worth two million and lastly, the 3rd Skill Shot's good for a whopping three million added to your score. So it's possible to add up an extra cool five million points to your overall score alone.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Jeneki]

I tried out the Duke Nukem demo in Pinball M last month. Ball drains through the outlane, "Shit happens." LOL

Next weekend (7th) should drop a Deep Space Nine pin in FX as well.

[BrianC]

Yes, I meant the Gunsmoke actor James Arness portrayed as the Thing creature.

Brother of Peter Graves from the original Mission Impossible series

[Udderdude]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IA8SSQphytc Texas Chainsaw Massacre trailer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNtOXywZlk0 Looney Tunes trailer

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Cool to learn that director Quentin Tarantino licensed his Pulp Fiction movie IP to Chicago Coin to make a cool retro throwback 1980s themed Pulp Fiction pinball game complete with the old-school "alphanumeric" led displays for scoring. Not to mention that only 1,000 of the Pulp Fiction LE pinball games will be made in their entirety. How cool is that?

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~