Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!

[leonk]

But all it takes is a few bad reviews to go viral to kill this device.

yeah, they'll end up buying one of the competing HDMI boards for NES.... oh wait...

Don't be a jack ass. HDMI is just an interconnect. Nothing more. One can always:

- play on retron 5 (does HDMI) and now has everdrive built in.
- use NESRGB to XRGB mini. Yes, it costs more but you're not limited to NES. You can use any console with any video connection (except RF) into it.

Let's not forget that this device is currently NOT for sale! Above 2 are!

[BazookaBen]

- play on retron 5 (does HDMI) and now has everdrive built in.

Emulator running on a ARM-based computer, so there will be errors that keep it from being an authentic experience. You're better off hooking up a laptop running a higher-quality emulator.

- use NESRGB to XRGB mini. Yes, it costs more but you're not limited to NES. You can use any console with any video connection (except RF) into it.

Has input lag from the analog to digital conversion.

[BONKERS]

But all it takes is a few bad reviews to go viral to kill this device.

yeah, they'll end up buying one of the competing HDMI boards for NES.... oh wait...

Don't be a jack ass. HDMI is just an interconnect. Nothing more. One can always:

- play on retron 5 (does HDMI) and now has everdrive built in.
- use NESRGB to XRGB mini. Yes, it costs more but you're not limited to NES. You can use any console with any video connection (except RF) into it.

Let's not forget that this device is currently NOT for sale! Above 2 are!

Also: They make low profile HDMI cables, there is the chance that the connectors are slightly longer on these
http://www.amazon.com/Monoprice-10-2Gbp ... +HDMI+head
http://www.amazon.com/SANUS-Super-Slim- ... ofile+hdmi
http://www.amazon.com/Cable-Matters%C2% ... ofile+hdmi

There are also these
http://www.amazon.com/Afunta-90degree-C ... TWSHNND008
That you can probably trim the plastic off of fairly easily.

[Voultar]

- play on retron 5 (does HDMI) and now has everdrive built in.

Emulator running on a ARM-based computer, so there will be errors that keep it from being an authentic experience. You're better off hooking up a laptop running a higher-quality emulator.

- use NESRGB to XRGB mini. Yes, it costs more but you're not limited to NES. You can use any console with any video connection (except RF) into it.

Has input lag from the analog to digital conversion.

Nevermind the odd 18-20ms latency of the Framemeister. Regardless if, whether or not the Hi-Def NES creates any additional lag on top of what the display being used generates.. There's no such thing as a "lagless" solution when pairing any game console to a flat panel display.

[Jeppen]

GameTech-US

Request!

There are plenty of Europeans here, it would be so incredibly sweet to see an install video of a Frontloader.

[FBX]

Nevermind the odd 18-20ms latency of the Framemeister. Regardless if, whether or not the Hi-Def NES creates any additional lag on top of what the display being used generates..

I would say the Hi-Def mod HAS to add some sort of lag since it has to convert and upscale the image.

[yxkalle]

Nevermind the odd 18-20ms latency of the Framemeister. Regardless if, whether or not the Hi-Def NES creates any additional lag on top of what the display being used generates..

I would say the Hi-Def mod HAS to add some sort of lag since it has to convert and upscale the image.

A maximum of 32 NES scanlines are buffered on this board. That mean that one could expect less than 2 ms of lag. It's absolutely minescule compared to the lag the screen introduces, atleast another 16.7ms. 2 houndreds of a second is good enough for me though.

[FBX]

A maximum of 32 NES scanlines are buffered on this board. That mean that one could expect less than 2 ms of lag. It's absolutely minescule compared to the lag the screen introduces, atleast another 16.7ms. 2 houndreds of a second is good enough for me though.

So the board doesn't upscale? Because if it does, 2ms would be pretty much impossibly fast.

[Fudoh]

So the board doesn't upscale? Because if it does, 2ms would be pretty much impossibly fast.

it does upscale and 2ms are no problem to achieve. You only need a few lines to work with. There's no need for a fullscreen buffer.

On the Mini (or the XRGB-3 in scaling mode) it's not the actual scaling that's causing lag. It's the deinterlacing pipeline for 480i signals. If Micomsoft had thought of it and made it possible to work around that, you could have scaling for 240p sources along with nearly zero lag.

[RGB32E]

So the board doesn't upscale? Because if it does, 2ms would be pretty much impossibly fast.

it does upscale and 2ms are no problem to achieve. You only need a few lines to work with. There's no need for a fullscreen buffer.

On the Mini (or the XRGB-3 in scaling mode) it's not the actual scaling that's causing lag. It's the deinterlacing pipeline for 480i signals. If Micomsoft had thought of it and made it possible to work around that, you could have scaling for 240p sources along with nearly zero lag.

^^ This! If the FPGA is driving the HDMI Tx in real time, the only main delay would be waiting for the line buffer to fill. Some of the filters on the HDNES would likely need to use more than one line, so the lag would be increased by n number of lines.

[lettuce]

So Kevtris is actually blaming the Everdrive for the problem?....funny how then if the mappers that the Everdrive use are so poorly coded then why does it run absolutely fine on the original hardware and also the NESRGB kits.

I think Kevtris is talking out of his arse

[CkRtech]

If the Hi-Def NES came first and ran all cartridges just fine & then the Everdrive came along and didn't work with the Hi-Def NES, would you make the same argument?

[Voultar]

I suppose Krikkzz should have used his crystal ball to know that he needed to design the Everdrive N8 to perfectly accommodate a piece of kit that would be developed years down the road?


Seems legit..

[leonk]

Guys.. the X-RGB mini lag is so insignificant I've yet to see any proof on ANY console where it's perceived by any gamer.

Now, as far as NES HDMI. Lets not forget that only 2 people have actually fully vetted this thing through! And most of the development / testing has been done using the NES PowerPak.

The NESRGB was on version 1.0 for a long time, until the memory modules changed, and then really obscure games found other issues (that's how we're up to version 1.7 now). I suspect that there will be multiple firmware revisions to the NES HDMI once real people get their hands on it (be it to correct game compatibility, or strange TV HDMI compatibility, etc.).

Given the fact that the only way to update this device is to either use a PowerPak (sold out for long time) or make your own reproduction with the ROM on it (how many people buying the $500+ eBay initial versions can do that!?) I think the jury is still out on overall compatibility with all games and all TV / AV Receivers.

This item was first brought up in November 2014 with "end of year" promises. In April, I wrote that I would be shocked if DIY kits will be made available in 2015. I still stand by my prediction.

I truly believe this item is a marvel of engineering, but if you want to play NES on modern displays TODAY, there are other options that are just as good and fully tested.

[Voultar]

Guys.. the X-RGB mini lag is so insignificant I've yet to see any proof on ANY console where it's perceived by any gamer.

Insert Youtube Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnzA0a0_AWU

I can EASILY ascertain between CRT and a flat-panel display coupled with or without the Framemeister, both during gameplay and obviously in the lag comparison.

My video was shot cheaply with a 3 year old smartphone, but it certainly gets the point across.



^ That's with a moderately low latency panel paired with the Mini. Those couple of frames can really make the difference.

[CkRtech]

I suppose Krikkzz should have used his crystal ball to know that he needed to design the Everdrive N8 to perfectly accommodate a piece of kit that would be developed years down the road?

What do you mean?

[Voultar]

I suppose Krikkzz should have used his crystal ball to know that he needed to design the Everdrive N8 to perfectly accommodate a piece of kit that would be developed years down the road?

What do you mean?

I'm being facetious.

To cast blame (if he is, in fact) in retrospect for a piece of hardware (The Everdrive) that doesn't get along with something that came out years after the fact it silly and moot. I'm blaming Krikkzz for not doing his due-diligence and designing his flash-cart for unknown devices that augment NES hardware by other faculties. He should have called Ms. Cleo, or used that crystal ball of truth that I know he has.

The Everdrive was designed around bare metal, not around another augmentation device that changes the game.

Let's not be ridiculous in blaming Krikkzz' hardware.

[FBX]

So the board doesn't upscale? Because if it does, 2ms would be pretty much impossibly fast.

it does upscale and 2ms are no problem to achieve. You only need a few lines to work with. There's no need for a fullscreen buffer.

On the Mini (or the XRGB-3 in scaling mode) it's not the actual scaling that's causing lag. It's the deinterlacing pipeline for 480i signals. If Micomsoft had thought of it and made it possible to work around that, you could have scaling for 240p sources along with nearly zero lag.

Doesn't "PICTURE" circumvent deinterlacing on the Framemeister? I noticed it doesn't deinterlace on that mode.

[CkRtech]

I'm being facetious.

To cast blame (if he is, in fact) in retrospect for a piece of hardware (The Everdrive) that doesn't get along with something that came out years after the fact it silly and moot. I'm blaming Krikkzz for not doing his due-diligence and designing his flash-cart for unknown devices that augment NES hardware by other faculties. He should have called Ms. Cleo, or used that crystal ball of truth that I know he has.

I don't think he should have had to predict it, however I do think that whichever item came first would tilt the argument in favor of the second if the timeline was swapped.

Ultimately though, it is a matter of two homemade products being incompatible with each other & creators that need to talk to each other about it. Whoever needs to make the change is irrelevant.

[Voultar]

I'm being facetious.

To cast blame (if he is, in fact) in retrospect for a piece of hardware (The Everdrive) that doesn't get along with something that came out years after the fact it silly and moot. I'm blaming Krikkzz for not doing his due-diligence and designing his flash-cart for unknown devices that augment NES hardware by other faculties. He should have called Ms. Cleo, or used that crystal ball of truth that I know he has.

I don't think he should have had to predict it, however I do think that whichever item came first would tilt the argument in favor of the second if the timeline was swapped.

Ultimately though, it is a matter of two homemade products being incompatible with each other & creators that need to talk to each other about it. Whoever needs to make the change is irrelevant.

I'm afraid I'm not following you. You do understand I was being sarcastic, right?

[lettuce]

If the Hi-Def NES came first and ran all cartridges just fine & then the Everdrive came along and didn't work with the Hi-Def NES, would you make the same argument?

Your forgetting that the Hi-Def NES isnt an original NES, the Everdrive was designed to work on a NES/Famicom which it does 100% fine. And infact the Everdrive does work with the Analogue Nt out of the box but when Kevtris HDMI kit is added to the Analogue Nt it breaks it!

The fact that these HDMI mod kit FOR an original NES system then breaks the compatibility between the NES and the EverDrive which was working completely fine before then i think its easy to see where the blame lies!!!

[CkRtech]

I'm afraid I'm not following you. You do understand I was being sarcastic, right?

To cast blame (if he is, in fact) in retrospect for a piece of hardware (The Everdrive) that doesn't get along with something that came out years after the fact it silly and moot.

Sorry. I was responding to this statement (which I assume you were serious about). I shouldn't have started my response regarding the crystal ball that was just meant for fun.

Again, I am basically saying - it is about two homemade products not agreeing with each other. Both may end up having to go out of their way to accommodate the other - who knows.

Your forgetting that the Hi-Def NES isnt an original NES, the Everdrive was designed to work on a NES/Famicom which it does 100% fine. And infact the Everdrive does work with the Analogue Nt out of the box but when Kevtris HDMI kit is added to the Analogue Nt it breaks it!

The fact that these HDMI mod kit FOR an original NES system then breaks the compatibility between the NES and the EverDrive which was working completely fine before then i think its easy to see where the blame lies!!!

I am not forgetting anything, and I am not sure how this changes things as far as the statement I made. My theoretical situation was that the Hi-Def NES could have come first and worked with everything just fine. The Everdrive could have then been developed, not worked with the Hi-Def NES, and you'd still be in the same situation - an incompatibility & blame (most likely directed at the Everdrive) would still be ultimately irrelevant. Again - two homemade products.


Kevin could turn around and say, "It doesn't work with the Everdrive." and that's that. <shrug>

[Voultar]

Well, Kevtris did say in a neighboring forum that he could fix most of the compatibility issues on the Everdrive's end if he was paid for it.

I don't know if he's actually reached out to Krikkzz about it or not. I just feel sorry for those people who aren't anymore the wise and are bidding on those auctions.

[yxkalle]

Now, as far as NES HDMI. Lets not forget that only 2 people have actually fully vetted this thing through!

Serial #3 has been spotted out in the wild! ...and by the wild I mean Facebook. Analogue int. has shipped their first couple (tens? a hundred?) of HiDefisized NT's. Now all we need to do is to cannibalize NT's for our Hi-Def NES kits, oh the irony.

[Skips]

I just feel sorry for those people who aren't anymore the wise and are bidding on those auctions.

Which I still am not seeing being mentioned in the auctions. Its going to suck for them if someone buys one of those and files an eBay claim because this was not mentioned and thinks it is not working right. Its VERY easy to force a return as a buyer for missed details like this.

[lettuce]

My theoretical situation was that the Hi-Def NES could have come first and worked with everything just fine. The Everdrive could have then been developed, not worked with the Hi-Def NES, and you'd still be in the same situation - an incompatibility & blame (most likely directed at the Everdrive) would still be ultimately irrelevant. Again - two homemade products.


Kevin could turn around and say, "It doesn't work with the Everdrive." and that's that. <shrug>

Your theory might hold some water if in fact the everdrive had issues with the NES/Famicom in the first place which it doesn't! Kev was giving the impression that the only way to update the FW on the kit was via a everdrive now his saying the everdrive isnt compatible and to use a Power Pak which hasnt been in development for years!. Is fair enough if the 2 arent compatible but dont go blaming the everdrive for the issue if in the past it did work and now it doesnt!

But the Hi-Def kit didn't come first though!, the everdrive was developed to work with original NES/Famicom hardware which it does just fine...the point im making is Kevin is blaming the everdrive for being at fault, for having poorly programmed mappers!. Im sorry but this is just bullshit, its not so much the fact that the Hi-Def kits doesnt work for the nes (as i have not interest in purchasing one) its more to the fact that Kev is trying to shift the blame on to the everdrive. If his kit has issues with the everdrive then whos to say that other official retail carts wont have issues when more people get their hands on his kit to test it more thoroughly, so is he going to turn around and blame these carts as well!!?

[yxkalle]

Your theory might hold some water if in fact the everdrive had issues with the NES/Famicom in the first place which it doesn't!

That's not completely true. Some people has had problems getting their ED to work on certain Famicom revisions, even though it works fine on other systems. Earlier firmware versions (v. s3m5) works fine or mostly fine on those Famicoms though, same thing for Hi-Def NES.

[leonk]

Guys.. the X-RGB mini lag is so insignificant I've yet to see any proof on ANY console where it's perceived by any gamer.

Insert Youtube Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnzA0a0_AWU

I can EASILY ascertain between CRT and a flat-panel display coupled with or without the Framemeister, both during gameplay and obviously in the lag comparison.

My video was shot cheaply with a 3 year old smartphone, but it certainly gets the point across.

^ That's with a moderately low latency panel paired with the Mini. Those couple of frames can really make the difference.

Hmmm are we comparing apples to apples here? Your video specifically states that you are comparing composite video input and NOT RGB. Doesn't the XRGB mini have extra lag in processing composite video (comb filter, etc)

As already stated, the measured lag is abou 20ms or 0.02s for RGB.

At 30fps (240p), that's a lag of only 0.6fps. That's way off the 2fps you suggested.

[darcagn]

So Kevtris is actually blaming the Everdrive for the problem?....funny how then if the mappers that the Everdrive use are so poorly coded then why does it run absolutely fine on the original hardware and also the NESRGB kits.

I think Kevtris is talking out of his arse

If you had bothered to actually read and understand the situation at hand you could prevent yourself from the embarrassment of talking out of your ass.

Kevtris isn't blaming anyone, the situation is that in order for the HiDef NES to work, it has to very very very slightly modify the timing of the NES. There isn't any way around this in order for it to work without a framebuffer that adds lag. It's a limitation of working with an HDMI connection in real time. In order to create the HiDef NES product, THERE IS NO WAY AROUND THIS.

It just so happens that all games and the PowerPak don't mind this change, but the way the Everdrive operates, it does mind this change. It can't be fixed on the HiDef NES side, it can only be fixed on the Everdrive side. It doesn't matter who you think is "right" or who is "wrong," the technical fact of the matter is that this conflict can only be fixed on the Everdrive side. And since the Everdrive has timing issues on certain models of the console hardware anyway, it's probably code Krikzz needs to look at and fix anyway.

Guys.. the X-RGB mini lag is so insignificant I've yet to see any proof on ANY console where it's perceived by any gamer.

I can get all the way to Mike Tyson in Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!! without breaking too much of a sweat when I play on my Sony BVM but I get my ass handed to me constantly when playing on XRGB-mini. (Edit: Granted, I'm also including my plasma panel's lag too)

[Voultar]

Guys.. the X-RGB mini lag is so insignificant I've yet to see any proof on ANY console where it's perceived by any gamer.

Insert Youtube Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnzA0a0_AWU

I can EASILY ascertain between CRT and a flat-panel display coupled with or without the Framemeister, both during gameplay and obviously in the lag comparison.

My video was shot cheaply with a 3 year old smartphone, but it certainly gets the point across.

^ That's with a moderately low latency panel paired with the Mini. Those couple of frames can really make the difference.

Hmmm are we comparing apples to apples here? Your video specifically states that you are comparing composite video input and NOT RGB. Doesn't the XRGB mini have extra lag in processing composite video (comb filter, etc)

No. That's not how the Framemeister works. Cycling through the various picture settings (picture, natural, etc) does affect the low-pass filtering, combing, and de-interlacing, but that has 0% effect on the lag.

The input lag is the same for ALL analog inputs across the board. The Framemeister isn't "doing more work" for the different inputs.

As already stated, the measured lag is abou 20ms or 0.02s for RGB.

^ That's about a 1.5-1.8 frame delay (16ms= roughly 1 frame). And it's probably closer to 24ms, actually. Again that's just the Framemeister.

At 30fps (240p), that's a lag of only 0.6fps. That's way off the 2fps you suggested.

See above. You're failing to account for the latency of the display being used. And make no mistake, the Framemeister generates a lot more latency than 6 tenths of one frame.. I'd at least double that.

Like I have already said, those few frames count. 20-24ms on the Framemeister coupled with the latency of the display, it all adds up.

My whole original point was; I have several different configurations of hardware, and I can easily "feel" the input lag across the board. Regardless of the display that I pair the Framemeister with.

Just because you aren't sensitive to the input latency doesn't mean that other people aren't. I certainly am, and several of my friends certainly are. ESPECIALLY with games (Street Fighter) that demand almost cycle perfect responses.

That crap video was just a taste of what can typically be expected, and it's quite discernable.