OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

[paulb_nl]

I have an few years old LG and I have to change it manually. Frustratingly enough if I'm not in game mode, some resolutions give me an automatic setting but at the cost of the lag and not being able to use the higher line modes and keep the automatic setting. It literally disappears from the menu.

If you constantly have to change the black level for different sources or even the same source with different output then that is a very serious flaw with the LG TVs. If it defaults to low with the OSSC and that setting is Limited Range then it will crush the darkest and brightest shades of colors. Although many people will probably like that look because it will result in very dark blacks and bright whites even though crushing some details.

Its unbelievable to me that a big TV manufacturer would have such a big flaw in all their TVs.

[Xyga]

All? No, in the past I've owned two LG's and none had this issue, they were competent sets actually. But shit happens, even with the bigger names.
Today LG put more money and effort into high-end OLED stuff, which is understandable.

Major manufacturers have very wide ranges of products they renew constantly, and that includes the internal hardware and software.
They also source quite a lot of parts and code from cost-effective subcontractors who themselves change stuff while not necessarily documenting everything.

If you want to experience the real quality a manufacturer is able to produce with its own well-funded R&D and factories, you have to look at least at the middle-high to flagship level of products, otherwise with more low-end to dirt-cheap entry level products there's more lottery and risks of inconsistencies or nonsense design flaws.

(not that the high-range and flagship products are shite-proof either, but at least the manufacturers will pay attention for their reputation)

[nissling]

My LG OLED have both manual and automatic black levels when in PC mode. Otherwise it's only manual. It's no issue though.

[beer monkey]

My 2017 LG OLED in Game Mode displays all levels of black with 240p test suite with no crushing on the dark end or blowouts on the white end. This is on the Wii and zero settings changes.

[paulb_nl]

So you guys never need to change the Black Level setting on the LG OLEDs with any source? I have seen so many posts on forums about people having to change the Black Level with LG OLED and PS4.

@beer monkey What is the Black Level setting set at when you are using the OSSC? If it's on Low then it would be interesting that there is no crushing.

[bobrocks95]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the OSSC converted all inputs to full range RGB?

If so not sure why you'd need to change your black level when using a PS4. Just set the PS4 to full range RGB and it's matching the OSSC. Unless blu-rays are the issue?

[jayde6]

Its unbelievable to me that a big TV manufacturer would have such a big flaw in all their TVs.

Yep that is my experience and I couldn't believe it either, it wasn't an issue before I got the ossc because I just set everything to limited (consoles and tv) since a few things of mine do not have the option for full. Since the ossc is full only I have to go through a whole process to set it to full and then back. They "updated" the UI for the TV a while back that makes it super slow since the hardware is older. Add in the fact that it is one of those motion style remotes and theyve tucked the black level control about 5 menus deep make it frustrating.

Not blaming the ossc at all, LG designed this tv poorly, but if I could set the ossc to limited it would solve my headaches.

[bobrocks95]

Its unbelievable to me that a big TV manufacturer would have such a big flaw in all their TVs.

Yep that is my experience and I couldn't believe it either, it wasn't an issue before I got the ossc because I just set everything to limited (consoles and tv) since a few things of mine do not have the option for full. Since the ossc is full only I have to go through a whole process to set it to full and then back. They "updated" the UI for the TV a while back that makes it super slow since the hardware is older. Add in the fact that it is one of those motion style remotes and theyve tucked the black level control about 5 menus deep make it frustrating.

Not blaming the ossc at all, LG designed this tv poorly, but if I could set the ossc to limited it would solve my headaches.

Do LGs not allow for per-input RGB range settings like Sony sets do? Or have an auto range setting? That's definitely poor design if so.

[jayde6]

Do LGs not allow for per-input RGB range settings like Sony sets do? Or have an auto range setting? That's definitely poor design if so.

They do save those settings per input but the rest of mine are being used to circumvent other flaws of the TV. It was one of those where only certain ports have HDCP 2.2 and others have 4:4:4 60hz but none have both. Then only one has ARC. Just a mess.

The auto range setting only shows up on non PC modes and only at certain resolutions. If your on PC mode or a non video resolution (480p,720p,1080p) then the option for automatic literally disappears from the menu and you're left with setting it manually.

None of this is in the manual either, it just says there is a black level option. Doesn't even mention automatic or what resolutions do what to the way the tv handles the settings.

[paulb_nl]

In this LG C7/B7 settings video by Rtings they talk about the Black Level setting at 10:02. As you can see even on LG's flagship models there is no Auto setting and they say you have to set it to low for Limited range and High for Full Range RGB.

In this post on reddit he says about the LG B6 with a PS4: "In SDR when I switch between limited and full the TV clicks off to readjust and there is a very obvious difference in image quality." So that also confirms the TV is not auto adjusting the range.

My 10 year old Sony 40W4000 handles every source automatically. OSSC, Wii U, PS3 Limited or Full range. It all works without changing any settings on the TV. So I don't understand why LG does this. I was interested in the LG OLEDs but now I will probably stay with Sony TVs.

[emphatic]

Couldn't find this in the original post, does this accept 24kHz video as well as 15kHz?

[Fudoh]

Yes, it does. You can input 384p and output 768p (XGA).

[ASDR]

In this LG C7/B7 settings video by Rtings they talk about the Black Level setting at 10:02. As you can see even on LG's flagship models there is no Auto setting and they say you have to set it to low for Limited range and High for Full Range RGB.

In this post on reddit he says about the LG B6 with a PS4: "In SDR when I switch between limited and full the TV clicks off to readjust and there is a very obvious difference in image quality." So that also confirms the TV is not auto adjusting the range.

My 10 year old Sony 40W4000 handles every source automatically. OSSC, Wii U, PS3 Limited or Full range. It all works without changing any settings on the TV. So I don't understand why LG does this. I was interested in the LG OLEDs but now I will probably stay with Sony TVs.

My 10 years old Sony does this perfectly as well. I need limited for the Wii U because for some bizarre reason Nintendo decided that this console only outputs limited range. I think in general TV UIs made a gigantic step backwards since all this smart TV nonsense started. Instead of having a sensible remote and UI that allows for quick settings access there's now a Netflix button and instead of leaving all that playback/networking stuff to a cheap, replaceable dongle like the Fire TV it's now build into your TV where it'll just bitrot and likely be some kind of security risk a year or two down the road. From everything I've read the 2017 LG OLEDs seem to be the perfect match for the OSSC, though, so I guess if you buy a new TV right now and want to use the OSSC you'll have to put up with this kind of stuff.

[bobrocks95]

With the OSSC Wolf edition on ice right now, what's the best option for someone using D-SUB connectors for RGBS? Do VGA to SCART cables actually work, or is there an easy way to convert RGBS to sync on green and feed it into the component input?

[citrus3000psi]

With the OSSC Wolf edition on ice right now, what's the best option for someone using D-SUB connectors for RGBS? Do VGA to SCART cables actually work, or is there an easy way to convert RGBS to sync on green and feed it into the component input?

What is the pinout your using for your DSUB? I could easily design up a male scart to vga, that would just plug into the OSSC.

[nmalinoski]

With the OSSC Wolf edition on ice right now, what's the best option for someone using D-SUB connectors for RGBS? Do VGA to SCART cables actually work, or is there an easy way to convert RGBS to sync on green and feed it into the component input?

According to the OSSC wiki, you should connect CSync to pin 13, which is the pin normally used for Horizontal Sync. I'm not sure if this is industry-standard, but according to RetroRGB's page on the Extron Rxi (diagram)--and I've seen this on other devices, like the System 7--this how RGBS is supported on Extron's video processors.

[BuckoA51]

Remember that AV3 doesn't have the low pass filter that 15khz sources usually need though.

[H6rdc0re]

Remember that AV3 doesn't have the low pass filter that 15khz sources usually need though.

That's why I use my original Xbox on it with a component to d-sub adapter. Xbox @480p line doubled with 100% forced scanlines is awesome. Much sharper than 480p, without the aliasing caused by line doubling 480p and essentially without losing resolution.

[H6rdc0re]

In this LG C7/B7 settings video by Rtings they talk about the Black Level setting at 10:02. As you can see even on LG's flagship models there is no Auto setting and they say you have to set it to low for Limited range and High for Full Range RGB.

In this post on reddit he says about the LG B6 with a PS4: "In SDR when I switch between limited and full the TV clicks off to readjust and there is a very obvious difference in image quality." So that also confirms the TV is not auto adjusting the range.

My 10 year old Sony 40W4000 handles every source automatically. OSSC, Wii U, PS3 Limited or Full range. It all works without changing any settings on the TV. So I don't understand why LG does this. I was interested in the LG OLEDs but now I will probably stay with Sony TVs.

TV's (any TV) output in video levels 16-235 so limited range. Full range is no better than limited range as a TV always outputs in video levels not PC levels 0-255 (full range). The option is only there for conversion. Unless the source is outputting in full range it's dumb to force full range on the TV. Forcing full range conversion with a limited range crushes black levels and forcing limited range on a full source means blacks are grey and whites aren't bright. The OSSC v1.6 seems to output based on the display meaning DVI would mean PC levels (full range) and HDMI would mean video levels (limited range). Again there's nothing to be gained by forcing the wrong range. Full doesn't mean better than limited. Almost any source outputs in video levels that's why it's the standard. My OSSC v1.6 outputs in video levels and setting black level to low (limited range) on my LG 55C6V and LG 55EG910V OLED TV's gives proper levels.

[Fudoh]

TV's (any TV) output in video levels 16-235 so limited range.

not true. Many TVs rely on internal processing in YCbCr colorspace (which automatically brings limited range with it), but ultimately the driver of the panel still operates in RGB. On the other hand many TVs bypass the internal YCbCr conversion when you feed them a RGB444 signal, so there's really no reason to dismiss full range by any means.

[becker]

With the OSSC Wolf edition on ice right now, what's the best option for someone using D-SUB connectors for RGBS? Do VGA to SCART cables actually work, or is there an easy way to convert RGBS to sync on green and feed it into the component input?

The Wolf is not on ice. It's just slow going. I usually only get to work on it if I wake up at 3AM and sneak out of bed with my wife.
The prototype run I did a year ago was unsuccessful and financially hard. It took me a long time to come back to it. I scrapped the old design and made several revisions. Then I scrapped those and started over in a different software. I stared over in CircuitMaker because it is free. I was using expensive industry software from my workplace but it would have made open source participation almost impossible.
The current status is a mostly complete schematic with dabbling in layout to check pinout efficiency of the fpga. It will look different from the first revision.
I don't want to high jacked this thread so please post Wolf questions in the Wolf thread.

[jayde6]

TV's (any TV) output in video levels 16-235 so limited range. Full range is no better than limited range as a TV always outputs in video levels not PC levels 0-255 (full range). The option is only there for conversion. Unless the source is outputting in full range it's dumb to force full range on the TV. Forcing full range conversion with a limited range crushes black levels and forcing limited range on a full source means blacks are grey and whites aren't bright. The OSSC v1.6 seems to output based on the display meaning DVI would mean PC levels (full range) and HDMI would mean video levels (limited range). Again there's nothing to be gained by forcing the wrong range. Full doesn't mean better than limited. Almost any source outputs in video levels that's why it's the standard. My OSSC v1.6 outputs in video levels and setting black level to low (limited range) on my LG 55C6V and LG 55EG910V OLED TV's gives proper levels.

My understanding is that the setting isn't really there for conversion but so you can match the display to the proper input range.

I haven't seen anywhere that says the ossc outputs limited range at all. I know that when I have my tv set to limited I loose a lot of stuff to the darkness. It may make things pop due to it "boosting" contrast kinda sorta, but it's really just lost picture info.

[bobrocks95]

With the OSSC Wolf edition on ice right now, what's the best option for someone using D-SUB connectors for RGBS? Do VGA to SCART cables actually work, or is there an easy way to convert RGBS to sync on green and feed it into the component input?

What is the pinout your using for your DSUB? I could easily design up a male scart to vga, that would just plug into the OSSC.

Fairly certain Csync is routed to the Hsync pin. I can double check to be certain.

With the OSSC Wolf edition on ice right now, what's the best option for someone using D-SUB connectors for RGBS? Do VGA to SCART cables actually work, or is there an easy way to convert RGBS to sync on green and feed it into the component input?

According to the OSSC wiki, you should connect CSync to pin 13, which is the pin normally used for Horizontal Sync. I'm not sure if this is industry-standard, but according to RetroRGB's page on the Extron Rxi (diagram)--and I've seen this on other devices, like the System 7--this how RGBS is supported on Extron's video processors.

Remember that AV3 doesn't have the low pass filter that 15khz sources usually need though.

Yeah, I was asking because I figured I'd want to avoid the DSub connector for 240p sources given the lack of LPF.

That's why I use my original Xbox on it with a component to d-sub adapter. Xbox @480p line doubled with 100% forced scanlines is awesome. Much sharper than 480p, without the aliasing caused by line doubling 480p and essentially without losing resolution.

Got a link to the kind of adapter you're using?

With the OSSC Wolf edition on ice right now, what's the best option for someone using D-SUB connectors for RGBS? Do VGA to SCART cables actually work, or is there an easy way to convert RGBS to sync on green and feed it into the component input?

The Wolf is not on ice. It's just slow going. I usually only get to work on it if I wake up at 3AM and sneak out of bed with my wife.
The prototype run I did a year ago was unsuccessful and financially hard. It took me a long time to come back to it. I scrapped the old design and made several revisions. Then I scrapped those and started over in a different software. I stared over in CircuitMaker because it is free. I was using expensive industry software from my workplace but it would have made open source participation almost impossible.
The current status is a mostly complete schematic with dabbling in layout to check pinout efficiency of the fpga. It will look different from the first revision.
I don't want to high jacked this thread so please post Wolf questions in the Wolf thread.

Sorry, I hadn't heard about it lately and assumed it was on hold. Didn't mean to imply you weren't working on it given that you were. I'll keep an eye out for it, since I still won't be getting an OSSC for a while.

[becker]

Sorry, I hadn't heard about it lately and assumed it was on hold. Didn't mean to imply you weren't working on it given that you were. I'll keep an eye out for it, since I still won't be getting an OSSC for a while.

No offense taken. I am inactive on the forums so people are going to be assumed the project was abandoned. I am waiting for a milestone to make a post. I don't want it to turn into another failure to launch and get people's hopes up.

[paulb_nl]

My OSSC v1.6 outputs in video levels and setting black level to low (limited range) on my LG 55C6V and LG 55EG910V OLED TV's gives proper levels.

The OSSC outputs Full Range RGB only so you should not be getting proper levels on low if low is truly Limited range. On low, black levels should look crushed with most consoles. White levels will probably look ok because most consoles output max around 240 instead of 255 for white with default gain on the OSSC. Some modded(attenuated) SNES 1-CHIPs/Jrs will output even lower around 225 for white.

If you increase the gain so that full white is 255 then you should be getting proper grayramp levels on Black Level high setting.

[citrus3000psi]

Fairly certain Csync is routed to the Hsync pin. I can double check to be certain.

Do you also wire audio through the DSUB? I'm assuming your cables are all custom?

[Tapeworm]

Anyone use the Reverse LPF setting? The notes make mention of de-blurring for 2-chip SNES consoles. So would this setting offer no benefit to 1-chip SNES consoles?

[Xyga]

^ in line x2 mode I set it to 1 or 2 to very gently sharpen the raw linedoubled picture.
1 is enough in most cases.

[marqs]

Just out of curiosity, Marqs. Any idea about when you'll release the firmware update featuring fully adjustable scanlines? I'm spending quite a long time to tune up my CRT profiles for 480i sources, then I read the Wiki and realized it could all be pretty much useless, should the new firmware land relatively soon.

My plan was to add some usability improvements (profile linking to input, audio gain adjust, and possibly integrate borti's backlight timeout changes) on the next fw and then implement extended scanline controls for the one following that. However, snes_dejitter and cps2_digiav projects have taken my attention recently, so those ossc features are still to be implemented/integrated. I'll probably now just go ahead and cram them into one fw update once those other projects are in suitable state.

My OSSC v1.6 outputs in video levels and setting black level to low (limited range) on my LG 55C6V and LG 55EG910V OLED TV's gives proper levels.

The OSSC outputs Full Range RGB only so you should not be getting proper levels on low if low is truly Limited range. On low, black levels should look crushed with most consoles. White levels will probably look ok because most consoles output max around 240 instead of 255 for white with default gain on the OSSC. Some modded(attenuated) SNES 1-CHIPs/Jrs will output even lower around 225 for white.

If you increase the gain so that full white is 255 then you should be getting proper grayramp levels on Black Level high setting.

Yes, ossc outputs full-range 24bit RGB. It should be very easy to verify/select the correct setting on TV by just using power-on test pattern as reference.

Fairly certain Csync is routed to the Hsync pin. I can double check to be certain.

If you use DSUB input for RGBS, keep in mind that c-sync needs to be TTL-level. Also, "digital" sync inputs go through a bit different processing path in the digitizer chip than the analog ones. Both paths have their own set of bugs: interlace is more prone to cause issues with TTL sync, while 240p signals with successive "1"-fields can cause trouble on the analog sync path.

[bobrocks95]

Fairly certain Csync is routed to the Hsync pin. I can double check to be certain.

Do you also wire audio through the DSUB? I'm assuming your cables are all custom?

Audio is through a separate 3.5mm connector. Yeah, they're all custom cables made by retro_console_accessories/Retro-Access, they all look like this SNES cable she offers.

If you use DSUB input for RGBS, keep in mind that c-sync needs to be TTL-level. Also, "digital" sync inputs go through a bit different processing path in the digitizer chip than the analog ones. Both paths have their own set of bugs: interlace is more prone to cause issues with TTL sync, while 240p signals with successive "1"-fields can cause trouble on the analog sync path.

I believe they're attenuated, though maybe not 100% correctly. Hopefully none of them are pumping out pure TTL.
Can you clarify those bugs? Is that 480i through the DSUB input causing problems, and certain 240p signals (that align themselves on the opposite interlaced field) on any input?


Of course I had a massive lapse in thought- I already have an RCA to SCART adapter that I've used in the past, combined with a VGA to BNC cable. Maybe a Y cable to combine sync and green can allow me to ditch the SCART adapter from that chain?