RAZION - NG:DEV.TEAM shmup coming to NEO GEO Fall 2014

[spadgy]

i don't really know anything about the dux situation

Would somebody be kind enough to share here a brief clarification of the various versions of DUX and how similar/different they were?

We had DUX, DUX 1.5 and Redux, right?

[ptoing]

And Dux 1.1 which I think got shipped with a limited reissue of Dux 1.5.

Long story short: Dux is one of the most blatant (and seemingly successful) attempts to milk what is more or less a single game for as long as possible by exploiting a (arguably somewhat daft) captive audience.

[DQuick]

Dux, Dux 1.5, now Dux 1.1 only available by purchasing Dux 1.5 again for a stupid price (but released after 1.5 so you couldn't have opted for the edition with 1.1 when 1.5 came out).
Redux, which offered a special edition exclusive to kickstarter that turned out to be neither special nor exclusive, and is still for sale through the Hucast website.

[Casey120]

i don't really know anything about the dux situation

Would somebody be kind enough to share here a brief clarification of the various versions of DUX and how similar/different they were?

We had DUX, DUX 1.5 and Redux, right?

From the head :

Dux had a game breaking score bug amongst others .
Dux 1.5 = bugs removed, some game play tweaks and all new music .( best version IMO )
Dux 1.1 = Dux 1.5 with the music from the original restored .
ReDux Dark matters = first announced as a sequel but ends up being yet another remake with an extra ship to choose from, some game play changes and a graphics overhaul that actually makes it look worse than the prequels and on top of that it introduces a console crashing bug at the first boss .

These are all Hucast games though and not NG:Dev .

[spadgy]

From the head :

I trust your head! Perfect - thanks Casey120.

So, I think it's fair to say there's been enough spins on DUX.

But it does appear Razion has a few distinctions; namely its frantic pace.

[HydrogLox]

So, I think it's fair to say there's been enough spins on DUX.

Yes - but they are all on the Sega Dreamcast.

But it does appear Razion has a few distinctions; namely its frantic pace.

And that it's on NEO GEO where there are no versions of DUX.

Even if it turns out that RAZION is a superior game to any version of DUX, consideration for "family peace" may prevent it from ever being ported to the Sega Dreamcast (which already had "enough spins on DUX") - regardless of the missed "business/financial opportunity" (maybe their Dreamcast releases aren't that profitable anyway). And lets face it as seen with NEO XYX, at least the NEO GEO cartridge can be updated (it is ~€400 after all) - fixes/updates for a (much cheaper) Dreamcast version tend to require a full price 1.5 release.

[MintyTheCat]

Far too cheap. The better option is to work on a Game that is interesting to play and does something that has not been done before. I am astounded to think that this Game is to be released 22 years after Last-Resort and it simply cannot be compared.

Advice:

Think quality. Think play-testing. Think quality and don't be cheap.

Sorry, I had no trouble supporting your Homebrew ventures but you simply have to try harder. You guys have graduated from your first Demos and first Games now and the standards are now higher. I get the feeling that your Games are simply not tested by Players and that's the most important factor.

You can attain 90% good software easily but the last 10% is the hardest to attain and this cannot be resolved by a couple of guys testing the Software on their own turf - playtest is your only option here.

This is such a cheap shot that you are going to have to do a lot to convince me to read about any new Titles; you release one bad Game and most will let it pass but if you continue to do it you will generate a bad reputation and not taken seriously.

[eatdogs]

Yeah, still waiting on that ghost blade I preordered last year...

[Ghegs]

Yeah, still waiting on that ghost blade I preordered last year...

NG:Dev.Team has nothing to do with Ghost Blade.

I talked with THE and found out that RHE is not involved in Razion's game design at all. So it is most assuredly not another version of Dux.

Also, I offered my help to test the game and he accepted, so I'll be able to provide some input on the thing. We'll see how it goes.

[Casey120]

I believe with all NG:DEV:TEAM games Rene is only graphics programmer while Tim is the game designer, with Hucast its all Rene .

[ptoing]

Yeah, still waiting on that ghost blade I preordered last year...

So it is most assuredly not another version of Dux.

Why then do the level layouts look like they were mostly taken from Dux and had some art changed?

[GrantWindsor]

As an owner of three of the four versions of Dux, this game, with all apologies to Timm, is most assuredly based upon Dux. Since there are elements of Dux clearly visible, Rene was involved, whether it be directly or not. I know that whoever maintains their YouTube account has taken every opportunity in the comments section to say this isn't another Dux whenever somebody brings it up. Still, I think it looks great, and, with Timm doing the coding, I'm sure that it will play well. While I'm unwilling to pop for Dux 1.1, I'd have no problem supporting this venture if it came to Dreamcast. However, I have doubts it will, based on all of the Dux overkill and backlash. Hey, on a positive note, it's also mentioned in the YouTube comments that there are two further planned games that are not shmups.

Question, though: Why didn't Timm announce this himself in the forum? That struck me as odd.

[HydrogLox]

I talked with THE and found out that RHE is not involved in Razion's game design at all. So it is most assuredly not another version of Dux.

I know that whoever maintains their YouTube account has taken every opportunity in the comments section to say this isn't another Dux whenever somebody brings it up.

Is DUX for Neo Geo?

No. The game is designed by NGDEVTEAM. Only the graphics were external.

Granted expectations for THE's new releases should be based on his previous work (Last Hope, Fast Striker, Gunlord, and Neo XYX) - not DUX et al. But even if he isn't using the DUX codebase at all (as it has to run on NEO GEO hardware) - the trailer still looks like he is using DUX graphical assets with a new coat of paint (the movement looks similar as well) - so as such he shouldn't be surprised if the "family resemblance" is going to bias customer expectations towards perceiving this as yet another variation on an established theme.

[LSU]

Hasn't every Neo Geo game they've produced so far also been released on Dreamcast? Therefore - I wouldn't expect this to be any different...

I've bought most of their games so far (and have enjoyed most of them - and I still have Ghost Blade on pre-order) but, honestly, I think they're reaching saturation point now for R-Type / Pulstar / Blazing Star / Last Resort / Dux / Redux / Re-re-re-re-re-re-redux clone games... How many more can they really hope to sell that are essentially a clone of the same concept, with similar looking pre-rendered enemies - and even the same looking score fonts?

Bring on the Ikari Warriors variant, and even more importantly, how about something original? I think their best game so far is Fast Striker and while it may not be an entirely fresh concept, it also isn't quite so evidently a close clone of something that was released almost 30 years ago.

All this should be taken with a large grain of salt, though - I'd much rather have devs keep producing new STG titles that I can play and keeping the genre alive to some extent, than not producing anything at all... even if they do seem quite derivative (at least from current evidence).

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

The enemy bullet patterns remind me of Deathsmiles and Progear. Like their other games, I'd like to play it but I wouldn't pay 500 Euros for an MVS cart. I wouldn't pay that much for any Neogeo game though so it's not personal. I've never played Dux but I googled a video and aside from those boring missiles I don't see the resemblance.

[HydrogLox]

I've never played Dux but I googled a video and aside from those boring missiles I don't see the resemblance.

Redux Dark Matters Release Trailer versus Razion / ラジオン Trailer 720p (NEOGEO)
Same apartment - different tenant moved in and renovated (with the help of a sledgehammer here and there).

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

Ok seeing the trailer I can see the resemblance. It was some other version of the game I saw in the other video.

[gameoverDude]

"If it walx like a Dux & talx like a Dux..." Sorry, just couldn't resist.

I can't deny that there's a few similarities. But TBH, Razion does look a bit faster paced than Dux- like Blazing Star compared with Pulstar.

The 1560 Meg size of Fast Striker poleaxed its chance of going to Neo CD, but I do have hope Razion can similarly go to Dreamcast (FS DC version is almost perfect except for a few minor cuts). Still considering the MVS cart though- which thankfully would have the USB jack for upgrades. I wouldn't mind seeing the USB jack externalized to avoid having to open the cart.

[Siatome]

Even as a serious NGDEV team fan boy, the trailer for this one kinda made me yawn.. It really does feel like they just needed something they knew how to make and could churn out quickly to keep their heads above water while they finish making their Ikari warriors game.

Hai btw Just signed up, and the more I look around the more I'm certain I'm too scrubby at shmups to be here!

[Ghegs]

Why then do the level layouts look like they were mostly taken from Dux and had some art changed?

Please point out some specific stage setpieces that are shared between the two games, because I honestly don't see any. They are both R-Type -esque games so of course there are similar elements. These same elements can also be found in Pulstar, Rezon, Last Resort, G-Type, other R-Type clones and of course in R-Type's own sequels. Like LSU said, these are all basically clones of the same concept, they're all R-Type clones.

RHE has been hired to do graphics work for Razion so a familiar style to art can be expected.

I wouldn't mind seeing the USB jack externalized to avoid having to open the cart.

They're using wood shells, which are very easy to open and there's no risk to tearing the label. It works pretty well.

[jasoncslaughter]

I'm not sure how I feel about this one. My initial reaction is "meh," which is probably just as well since I don't really have the money (and if I did, it could be better spent).

Autumn release date is hilarious. Anyone want to start a pool on the actual release date?

[spadgy]

If we're talking 'resemblance' rather than 'direct rips of art/gameplay mechanics', I'm much more enthusiastic.

And, the more thought I put into it, I realise that as long as the gameplay changes alone are significant enough (I've honestly not spent too much time with DUX, but it wasn't to my tastes), I'll remain open to enjoying this one. Remixing a game over and over seems a little creatively shortsighted, but if that's their thing with DUX, it's no skin of my nose. And if in doing that they introduce some great new mechanics this time, ace!

Certainly, the pace seen in the video seems to my liking, and faster than that often seen in a certs of this style.

Any possible DC version just better be a bit more finely tested for console set-ups than seen in the otherwise glorious Neo XYX!

[Stevas]

Personally, I won't be going near another of their games till either a) they figure out a way to get fixes to me for games I already bought, or b) enough time has passed for me to be certain I am actually buying the finished product.

I don't give a shit how derivative a shmup is (I'll play anything that goes p'tew p'tew), but I draw the line at throwing money at a company that pulls that shit.

Welcome, Siatome. Don't worry about feeling scrubby. It doesn't matter how good you get at something, someone somewhere will always think you're doing something scrubby. (If you feel that way around here, can I advise you to never visit SRK? I think I can, and I just did.)

Anyway. Ikari Warriors game what now?

[spadgy]

Hai btw Just signed up, and the more I look around the more I'm certain I'm too scrubby at shmups to be here!

Welcome, by the way! And don't worry your ability; it's about enthusiasm for the genre and what you contribute to the forum! I joined this place a 1CC-less newbie with much to learn. I've just about hit 'mediocre skills' level now, and I owe much of what I've learned to this forum. You're never too scrubby at shmups to be part of the community here!

[Sier]

Looks lovely, cool stuff.

Read on the NGDT Facebook page back in April (via a comment) prints of DC titles would no longer be produced. That’s a bit of a worry, but doesn’t discount a Razion DC version. I’m hopeful of such, sometime after calibrated MVS and AES releases - fingers crossed for that.

Incidentally, Andre Neumann did hint at a soundtrack for a NGDT project, guess that would be Razion then? Also heard Rafael Dyll will be providing the Ghost Blade score for Hucast. Great composers both, guess the teams are mixing it up some?

Sweet !!

[gray117]

Looks like a nice effort - clearly getting more confident in execution. Picking up a bit more flack too Were xyx bugs only on the dc version (not an excuse, but probably symptomatic of 2nd platform and rushing it a little)?

Think it's great to see them back at it. Yeah probably a bit too garish on the palette choices, use of 3d does not have to look quite like this; I think they'd do better to crib off blazing star/pulstar even more closely. Looks like the talent's there and only getting more confident, interested to see where they take it.

Don't rely on release dates, but celebrate they're making these types of games.

[Mortificator]

I thought we reached the only rational conclusion after the last Hellwig disaster, but I guess not.

the otherwise glorious Neo XYX!

spadgy the food critic: "Well, my meal was served three hours late and with a log of faeces on the plate - dog or other canine, says my palate - but it was otherwise glorious! Feeling optimistic and enthusiastic about my next visit."

[Despatche]

to be honest, dux up there sounds almost exactly like cave releases

[gameoverDude]

I'll probably get in on the RE version. RE is around $545 and LE is closer to $613 given the exchange rate. A little higher than Gunlord but I'm sure it's due to the 1560 meg count.

Hopefully they don't rush the DC release of Razion, if there is one. The disc needs to be the FINAL version.

[Kollision]

As someone who hasn't played Neo XYX yet and has no will to plow through a whole thread to find out, could someone politely tell me what's wrong with the DC version?