RAZION - NG:DEV.TEAM shmup coming to NEO GEO Fall 2014

[chempop]

As someone who hasn't played Neo XYX yet and has no will to plow through a whole thread to find out, could someone politely tell me what's wrong with the DC version?

Yoko-vert mode crashes 100% of the time - it's like they didn't playtest it once.

Bomb fragments sometimes carry over from stage to stage, but usually don't - they are supposed to.

Stage 2 midboss has hitbox/life discrepancies and doesn't die unless you bomb it repeatedly.

There were some other minor things, but those are what I remember the most.

[spadgy]

I thought we reached the only rational conclusion after the last Hellwig disaster, but I guess not.

the otherwise glorious Neo XYX!

spadgy the food critic: "Well, my meal was served three hours late and with a log of faeces on the plate - dog or other canine, says my palate - but it was otherwise glorious! Feeling optimistic and enthusiastic about my next visit."

Ha ha! Well, I take your point. I was so besotted by Neo XYX after a few credits, and initially tried to remain optimistic in face of the increasingly list of bugs (it so happened that my set up avoided the modes where they were most present), but eventually I had to accept the fact that they'd grossly dropped the ball there (probably in that plate of dog turds). So maybe I should of said 'Neo XYX, which seemed like it would have been glorious if it weren't the host of a few too many significant, inexcusable bugs'.

As for that lovely food analogy, I did once see a band named 'Dog Shit Sandwich' (a very hazy, distant memory) and I think they were good, so perhaps I'd like your hypothetical restaurant.

[synapse]

Please point out some specific stage setpieces that are shared between the two games, because I honestly don't see any. They are both R-Type -esque games so of course there are similar elements. These same elements can also be found in Pulstar, Rezon, Last Resort, G-Type, other R-Type clones and of course in R-Type's own sequels. Like LSU said, these are all basically clones of the same concept, they're all R-Type clones.

For God's sake, there's missiles and enemies that are EXACTLY the same. Those little robots walking on the floor are taken straight from Dux/Dux 1.1/Dux 1.5/Redux with no changes. There's lots of background elements in common too. And at least one boss that is WAY too similar, only moving faster.

[Ghegs]

For God's sake, there's missiles and enemies that are EXACTLY the same. Those little robots walking on the floor are taken straight from Dux/Dux 1.1/Dux 1.5/Redux with no changes. There's lots of background elements in common too. And at least one boss that is WAY too similar, only moving faster.

I was actually referring to similarities in stage design instead of just graphics, but alright.

The flying red enemies at the beginning are similar, yes. Same template basically, but since Razion's graphics are pre-rendered it looks a bit different. Same thing with the walking robots, they have the same outline, but the details are a bit different and the sprite is pre-rendered this time, so it wasn't taken straight with no changes.

I'm perfectly fine with this. How many games did Cave/Psikyo/Konami/others do that used the exact same sprites? Not even slightly altered like what's going on here, but the exact same sprites unaltered from one game to the next?

I guess you're referring to the first stage Dux boss looking similar to the first boss shown in Razion's trailer, the one with the "clamps" protecting the red core? Razion's has a lot more details, an extra set of smaller clamps and totally different attack patterns. The last one being the most important part. As long as the gameplay is different from Dux's I don't mind if the graphics are similar, especially since they're not exactly the same.

[armalyte]

I agree with Ghegs.

[spadgy]

Perhaps – whatever the level of sprite rework/reuse – the general reaction to this game is purely people a little nervous about offering unbridled pre-release support in the wake of the apparent Neo XYX DC testing shortcomings. Maybe an utterly different (stylistically and mechanically speaking) game would give people more reason to have faith in the level of effort put in.

So I wonder if the exact degree to which stuff is reused is a rather mute point, whatever its extent. Of course, the many versions of Dux haven't helped with some people's growing sense that we'll get something too similar again.

Eitherway, I'd be delighted for this to be great, and I'll not cast it aside until I've had a go. It can't hurt to hope!

[Ghegs]

Of course, the many versions of Dux haven't helped with some people's growing sense that we'll get something too similar again.

Oh, absolutely. People tend to overlap NG:Dev.Team and Hucast for obvious reasons, and they're not exactly doing the best job keeping people informed of the difference. Combine that with announcing a hori shmup that has similar elements so soon after the whole Dux thing, and they're really fighting an uphill battle in the PR department.

A new screenshot was released on their Facebook page, and they've reworked the player ship, it's a bit smaller now. Maybe they'll redesign some of the enemies as well?

[MadSteelDarkness]

The day i receive a free, patched copy of NEO XYX is the day i will possibly consider giving these guys any more of my money.

Which is a shame because i really did like Gunlord

[emphatic]

The day i receive a free, patched copy of NEO XYX is the day i will possibly consider giving these guys any more of my money.

[christuserloeser]

Yoko-vert mode crashes 100% of the time - it's like they didn't playtest it once.

??? -are you sure? Why haven't I experienced that. Is there some specific filter/screen mode combo you have to choose for it to happen?




My thoughts on this game:

1. Yes, it looks like a step back from GunLord and NeoXYX.

And that's because it is! This is a spritiual sequel to Last Hope, not GunLord or NeoXYX.

And the graphics are done by Rene Hellwig - who did Last Hope and Fast Striker but not GunLord and Neo XYX.

This is the first game the Hellwig brothers have been working on together since Fast Striker.


2. It looks a lot like Redux.

Yes, it looks like Redux, because the graphics in both games were done by Rene Hellwig.

And it looks like Redux because it runs in the Neo Geo's standard 320x240 resolution - like Redux does due to problems when porting the game to Dreamcast. (The original Dux was made for Dreamcast and runs in 640x480, Redux was made for Windows PCs and Xbox 360 and ran in 1280x720 before being down-ported to Dreamcast)

It also looks like Redux because it is another horizontal shmup just like Redux - and Last Hope, ngdevteams very first game.

But it is not yet another Dux/Redux reprint. These games were made for Dreamcast (Dux) and Windows (Redux). RAZION is written for NEO-GEO and the game itself was designed by Timm Hellwig. It is not based on Dux or Redux but on Last Hope - which in turn was based on Pulstar, which in turn was based on R-Type.

Dux/Redux obviously share this influence which is why the games appear so similar to the untrained eye, yet the underlying engine is completely different.


3. Yes, it seems like a filler to bridge the gap for their next games.

2d pixel art like ngdevteam used in GunLord and NeoXYX is time consuming and expensive. Reviving the Last Hope concept and working together again since 2010 most likely allowed the Hellwig brothers to catch a breath financially, and to gain some time. We do know that Rene Hellwig/hucast is working on Ghost Blade and Timm Hellwig/ngdevteam is working on three other games for at least three years according to their 'Jobs' section at their website: a Run 'n Gun (like GunLord), a military-themed multi-directional shooter (like Granada on MD, or perhaps Ikari Warriors?) and a Metroidvania-style game.

That said, we do not know how long development for RAZION took. So take the claim of this being "just a filler" with a grain of salt. For me the announcement of RAZION certainly was a nice surprise! I expected their next game to be released sometime in 2015.

[HydrogLox]

My thoughts on this game:

Lots of valid points...

Dux/Redux obviously share this influence which is why the games appear so similar to the untrained eye, yet the underlying engine is completely different.

I don't think it has much to do with an "untrained eye". Trailers tend to showcase the graphical design and the game in motion - so allusions to DUX+ are inevitable - game play is much harder to judge from mere trailers. The fact that the underlying game could be different enough creates a conundrum for former Dreamcast DUX+ (and NeoXYX) customers. RAZION could end up being the better product but for Dreamcast customers:

• a Dreamcast version may never materialize - which will likely disappoint those people who like R-Type style games which got them into the DUX series in the first place.
• a Dreamcast version may have similar or worse problems than the NeoXYX Dreamcast release.

After all the MVS version can be patched - the Dreamcast version cannot. So one cannot fault some for people for their buyer's remorse - though some may want to reflect on their expectations.
The reality is that the MVS version has a much steeper cost of acquisition than the Dreamcast version. Lots of it has to do with the cost of the distribution medium but I'd expect that the profit margin on the entire MVS cartridge production run is higher than the Dreamcast print run. So it wouldn't be too surprising if the incentive to deliver a Dreamcast release is much reduced given the additional development (and testing) effort. There may already be a release pattern for NG:DEV Dreamcast products:

• Last Hope -> Last Hope Pink Bullets
• Fast Striker -> Fast Striker 1.5

i.e. a second Dreamcast release to fix the problems. So with NG:DEV Dreamcast releases: plan to buy the game twice. This is still a lot cheaper than buying the MVS cartridge.

• Version 1 is the "early access edition" - then if there is enough support and interest (12-18 months later) ...
• Version 1.5 is the "final edition" with the bug fixes and tweaks.

So anyone buying version 1 should know what they are in for - and those who choose to wait for 1.5 may never get it due to lack of support for 1.
And anyone who doesn't like a vendor using this "update scheme" can simply choose not to do business with them.

That being said nobody at NG:DEV's should be the least bit surprised at some of the negative criticism that the RAZION announcement has received. After Gunlord many people expected the (1/1.5) release system to be a thing of the past - with the NeoXYX release it apparently isn't; and we don't even know it there will be a NeoXYX 1.5 to set things right (maybe it will just have to be "good enough"). Also it was predictable that the similarity between the visual style of RAZION and the DUX series was bound to drag in the resentment from the [DUX, DUX 1.5, Redux, DUX 1.1] milking train - notwithstanding the need to leverage existing graphical assets and "talent" to keep the cost down.

[theMot]

My thoughts on this game:

Lots of valid points...

Dux/Redux obviously share this influence which is why the games appear so similar to the untrained eye, yet the underlying engine is completely different.

I don't think it has much to do with an "untrained eye". Trailers tend to showcase the graphical design and the game in motion - so allusions to DUX+ are inevitable - game play is much harder to judge from mere trailers. The fact that the underlying game could be different enough creates a conundrum for former Dreamcast DUX+ (and NeoXYX) customers. RAZION could end up being the better product but for Dreamcast customers:

• a Dreamcast version may never materialize - which will likely disappoint those people who like R-Type style games which got them into the DUX series in the first place.
• a Dreamcast version may have similar or worse problems than the NeoXYX Dreamcast release.

After all the MVS version can be patched - the Dreamcast version cannot. So one cannot fault some for people for their buyer's remorse - though some may want to reflect on their expectations.
The reality is that the MVS version has a much steeper cost of acquisition than the Dreamcast version. Lots of it has to do with the cost of the distribution medium but I'd expect that the profit margin on the entire MVS cartridge production run is higher than the Dreamcast print run. So it wouldn't be too surprising if the incentive to deliver a Dreamcast release is much reduced given the additional development (and testing) effort. There may already be a release pattern for NG:DEV Dreamcast products:

• Last Hope -> Last Hope Pink Bullets
• Fast Striker -> Fast Striker 1.5

i.e. a second Dreamcast release to fix the problems. So with NG:DEV Dreamcast releases: plan to buy the game twice. This is still a lot cheaper than buying the MVS cartridge.

• Version 1 is the "early access edition" - then if there is enough support and interest (12-18 months later) ...
• Version 1.5 is the "final edition" with the bug fixes and tweaks.

So anyone buying version 1 should know what they are in for - and those who choose to wait for 1.5 may never get it due to lack of support for 1.
And anyone who doesn't like a vendor using this "update scheme" can simply choose not to do business with them.

That being said nobody at NG:DEV's should be the least bit surprised at some of the negative criticism that the RAZION announcement has received. After Gunlord many people expected the (1/1.5) release system to be a thing of the past - with the NeoXYX release it apparently isn't; and we don't even know it there will be a NeoXYX 1.5 to set things right (maybe it will just have to be "good enough"). Also it was predictable that the similarity between the visual style of RAZION and the DUX series was bound to drag in the resentment from the [DUX, DUX 1.5, Redux, DUX 1.1] milking train - notwithstanding the need to leverage existing graphical assets and "talent" to keep the cost down.

None of that is an excuse to release something with serious flaws though. By the time they get to release a game on the Dreamcast they really should be play testing it better to ensure it works or at least reprint the CD and send it to anyone who requests it. Doesn't matter if people paid $5 for it, people don't buy a product expecting it to be faulty.

They really should have spoken up about this and done something to make up for it. This is a very niche market, it doesn't take long for a business to piss off it's customers to the point where they wont buy again. It's not like there is a big supply of new fans just waiting for them around the corner. They are all basically one 3 o 4 forums and that is it.

[Bar81]

I can't believe people still give money to these clowns given their track record of fuckery.

[Stevas]

They really should have spoken up about this and done something to make up for it. This is a very niche market, it doesn't take long for a business to piss off it's customers to the point where they wont buy again. It's not like there is a big supply of new fans just waiting for them around the corner. They are all basically one 3 o 4 forums and that is it.

Exactly. They pissed me off, I won't be throwing any more money their way, and I account for a much higher percentage of their target market than, say, the utter fucks at EA who pissed me off enough to never buy another Fifa again due to their lies about the career mode.

[genetik]

I can't believe people still give money to these clowns given their track record of fuckery.

Fuckery? In what sense? I'm totally satisfied with the previous 4 games on MVS. They all play great. Do you mean issues with Neo XYX on DC? If so, how would someone buying the MVS versions care about that? All their games are upgradable, so really, if there's bug in 1.0, I can't say that I mind that much. They've shown in the past that they will offer free bug fixes for MVS buyers. If you mean how much they delay game releases, I think everyone by now should know that whatever date they announce is likely not gonna happen.

[Kollision]

for the first time in a long time I will hold from buying a new release on preorder.

[TransatlanticFoe]

2. It looks a lot like Redux.
But it is not yet another Dux/Redux reprint. These games were made for Dreamcast (Dux) and Windows (Redux). RAZION is written for NEO-GEO and the game itself was designed by Timm Hellwig. It is not based on Dux or Redux but on Last Hope - which in turn was based on Pulstar, which in turn was based on R-Type.

Dux/Redux obviously share this influence which is why the games appear so similar to the untrained eye, yet the underlying engine is completely different.

Right, from the screenshots page on the game's website.

Opening stage from DUX:



First boss from DUX:



Stage 2 from DUX:



This enemy was in stage 2 of DUX:



This enemy was also in stage 2 of DUX



The little dude walking along the floor? Also in DUX



No problems with them reusing bullets and effects between their games. It gives the developer a nice signature. But is it so hard to distinguish it from a game that's had a load of releases already and is technically by an offshoot project? Changing the colours around a bit won't fool anyone. If it's a completely different game, why the need to put so much stuff in there from DUX?

[Ghegs]

2. It looks a lot like Redux.
But it is not yet another Dux/Redux reprint. These games were made for Dreamcast (Dux) and Windows (Redux). RAZION is written for NEO-GEO and the game itself was designed by Timm Hellwig. It is not based on Dux or Redux but on Last Hope - which in turn was based on Pulstar, which in turn was based on R-Type.

Dux/Redux obviously share this influence which is why the games appear so similar to the untrained eye, yet the underlying engine is completely different.

Right, from the screenshots page on the game's website.

Let's do some side-by-side comparisons so we can finally move on, yes?







Clearly similar designs, yet equally clearly very different sprites with much more than just color differences. It's like you told two people the basic idea for the enemy, and both brought in their own version of it.

Also:


From R-Type II, Stage 2. Way back in 1989.

The other two small enemies are far more alike, like I said in an earlier post. Still some differences in detail, not just simple color swaps.

[Casey120]

Redux is a lot closer to Razion in graphics design than good old Dux .

[IseeThings]

cookie cutter design aside, does nobody else feel the title is a bit too close to Rezon? (which was also a cookie cutter r-type rip-off from memory)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaWFRBgLcbU

[Despatche]

rezon is anything but a cookie cutter ripoff, it's more like xmultiply or pulstar

[IseeThings]

rezon is anything but a cookie cutter ripoff, it's more like xmultiply or pulstar

fair enough, it always seemed very much like a "me too" game to me, part of me wonders if the title is intentional, like they're going for some raizing influenced rezon clone with the title being a combination of the two. I am however more inclined to agree with the rest of the comments here, it looks more like a rewrite of redux, intentional or otherwise.

That said, I hope all this negative feedback doesn't cause it to be cancelled, it would appear a number of bridges were burned with the most recent DC release, and due to the similarities pointed out already another portion of the potential audience are feeling they're simply being milked for everything they have.

I do wonder if the developers wouldn't win a couple more fans if they took the approach 1985Alternativo have done with their Genesis games, whereby after selling out of physical copies they make the game available to everybody; that method allows collectors to potentially own a very rare original cartridge, but also allows development of a fanbase beyond those willing to splash out silly money. It might soften the blow some people appear to have suffered due to sub-standard ports.

[lilmanjs]

The game looks similar to Dux and Redux yet very different and all its own. Can we stop harping on the graphics at this point and realize this game looks to be a quick paced shooter that looks really good. If this gets a DC port, I just might buy it. That stage 2 design combo (graphics and music) is really darn well done.

[mehguy]

I really hope they release it for dreamcast, those carts are expensive.

[HydrogLox]

Preorders open http://www.ngdevdirect.com/

Razion AES/Homecart JPN CE *collector edition* 499€
Razion AES/Homecart ENG CE *collector edition* 499€
Razion MVS RE Gamecenter Kit 399€

New Trailer #2

[Ghegs]

New Trailer #2

That looks pretty nice. Lots of bullets in Maniac mode.

[Plasmo]

Who's doing the music this time? The soundtrack sounds pretty rad.

[HydrogLox]

Andre Neumann

Hopefully they will make the soundtrack CD available separately at a later point in time.

[antares]

Makes me wonder what's up with Ghost Blade?

[TransatlanticFoe]

Ghost Blade is Hucast, which contract on development as far as I know because it's just the art guy from NG:DEV. I would be surprised if Ghost Blade makes it out this year though, given the total lack of news.

Second trailer does look considerably less DUX-esque but re-using some of the enemies still irks me.