TRP-STGT 2014 Conversation Week 2: Gemini Wing

[spadgy]

EDIT: trap15; do you think it's worth making it more explicit in the OP here and over on Gemini Wing's TRP-STGT scoreboard that we're not playing at defaults this week?

I've made it about as clear as I can >_> I don't know of any other way to get people to be less dumb lol :X

I just saw the additional information in the OP provided by BIL! Surely that wasn't there when I posted before! Anyway, it's great!

And I just love this game; it looks great and has a great energy and character to it, and the simple risk/reward thing of using Gunballs to clear up versus saving them for survival (and how sometimes using them for survival and scoring is the same thing) is lovely. Proper old school fun.

This week the STGT is... The real trap15 shit.

(A gag for music sub-genre fans there).

the game feels a little easy.

Have you definitely flipped that DIP setting to normal?

[Blackbird]

I've been increasingly curious about this game, but there's very little about it on the internet. Does anyone know anything about this game in regards to it's reception when it was originally released? The sound and gameplay compare favorably to it's contemporaries, in my opinion. Was this game really obscure, or popular and influential? Was it ever the subject of any scoring tournaments in the way that games like Galaga were? Gemini Wing certainly seems influenced by Galaga, especially in the area of enemy AI/behavior and the obvious point that most enemies are bugs that want to swoop in and collide with you =P.

As I play this game more, certain elements of this game remind me of things I've seen in later shmups. For example, the soundtrack of Gemini Wing reminds me a lot of Apidya at times. The weird "battleship" in Stage 5 could even be an early prototype for the elongated space battleships that would later frequent Toaplan and Cave games. The pacing, long stages, and level design of Gemini Wing actually remind me a lot of Toaplan's Tatsujin, which would come out a year later. Maybe I'm reading into it too much and it's just coincidence, but it would be interesting if Gemini Wing actually was a source of inspiration for stuff like this.

[BIL]

Maaad DEMONS BLAZON vibe from the stage 4 BGM, likey likey! Also digging all the Argus-style creepy crawlies.

[EmperorIng]

the game feels a little easy.

Have you definitely flipped that DIP setting to normal?

Any game where I can make it to stage 4 after an evening of practice is not packing DOJ-levels of difficulty.

The random enemy spawns, firing, and spamming gets pretty annoying by stage 4 though.

[Volteccer_Jack]

Dis game so goood. Walrus boss just completely seals the deal.

Now somebody make an arrange mode where scoring is based on doodling with your tail.

[trap15]

Ok, I've been guilt tripped into revealing all the info.

I pulled apart the game code last night to try to figure out a bunch of things, so here's a pretty messy brain/chat dump and some pastebins of information.

Some information
'Chain Dropper' info: http://bpaste.net/show/ip5cX66f7h5TVGd6ZtOQ/
Item odds: http://bpaste.net/show/PNDkEA1Igk71YPJHsKak/
Gunball info: http://bpaste.net/show/MZA11gr5WM2yhlSBLg0b/
MAME cheat xml (name it gemini.xml) with hit/kill/dropper/bonus progression tracking: http://bpaste.net/show/tbPsR1ZpW8jpuqGjq4kK/

Chat log with chum/zil, edited for brevity and clarity

Code: Select all

05:34 < trap15> you can ignore the flag column on the droppers, I didn't bother to figure out those bits
05:34 < trap15> and I believe the +W,H? means it has a wider/taller hitbox than usual
05:35 < trap15> but I didn't trace that because hurf
05:35 < trap15> motion is just the movement pattern; several of them share patterns
05:35 < trap15> itemcnt is the number of items they'll have trailing behind them
05:35 < trap15> itemset is a "set" of items that they can have from you shooting him; check the Odds stuff out for the contents of each set
05:36 < trap15> kill is obv how many kills you need for him to pop out (he'll pop out basically immediately, it's not checkpointed)
05:40 < Zil> well that explains a few things
05:41 < trap15> heh
05:41 < trap15> and you can never 'miss' bonuses or droppers
05:41 < trap15> it'll only advance in the list when you make it appear
05:45 < Zil> when two of them appear at once, is it possible to get them both with a bonus item? I'm guessing not
05:46 < trap15> ah... I can't remember
05:46 < trap15> I should look at that again, I think it's scripted to give you two
05:46 < trap15> but maybe not
05:47 < trap15> and yeah, don't underestimate how crazy the "multi-hit" thing is with the gunballs
05:47 < trap15> you can jack up like 8 hits from the st1 boss with the shitty 3-way one
05:48 <%chumlum> im not sure i understand this
05:48 < Zil> basically kill as much shit as you can, especially with gunballs, if I see it right
05:48 < trap15> I've been up like 48+ hours, so I'm not surprised if it's hard to understand
05:49 <%chumlum> what about the part that says that hitting increases the counter?
05:49 <%chumlum> so hitting enemies that take more than 1 hit is good? or am i misunderstanding?
05:49 < trap15> the gunballs don't have any "cool down" time if they're piercing an enemy
05:49 < trap15> so they'll give you like 8 hits for 1 "actual" hit
05:50 <%chumlum> oh wow
05:50 < trap15> which is great because then you don't have to waste more gunballs to try to meet the quota
05:50 <%chumlum> what about the point items? did i just miss the part that talks about these?
05:50 < trap15> and since the counters all carry over from the bosses, you can get loads from them
05:50 <%chumlum> i dont quite understand it
05:50 < trap15> scroll down on the dropper paste
05:50 <%chumlum> you need a certain number of hits to get them
05:50 <%chumlum> or something llike that, i dont get it
05:50 < trap15> yeah
05:51 < trap15> if you have at least X gunball hits, you get the item, and the queue moves
05:51 < trap15> the hits is only checked when the dropper spawns
05:51 <%chumlum> oh wait
05:51 <%chumlum> it's a queue
05:51 < trap15> yeah
05:51 <%chumlum> that makes more sense
05:51 < trap15> so is the chain droppers
05:51 < trap15> this game loves queues
05:52 <%chumlum> so, once you get to the last item (50,000) it restarts?
05:52 < trap15> yup
05:52 <%chumlum> so it affects extends as well
05:52 < trap15> yes
05:52 <%chumlum> playing a certain way could easily get you another extend or two
05:52 < trap15> yup
05:52 <%chumlum> this game is very deep
05:52 < trap15> more dead enemies = more droppers = more chances for bonuses
05:52 < trap15> yeah it's kinda good
05:52 <%chumlum> so in order to get as many hits in as possible, im guessing try to kill enemies with blue and yellow gunballs as often as possible
05:52 < trap15> pretty much
05:53 <%chumlum> and try to kill them with the peashooter as little as you can
05:53 < trap15> nah, don't go to that length
05:53 <%chumlum> well i mean
05:53 < trap15> it's not hard to meet the quotas if you know good places to use the gunballs
05:53 <%chumlum> assuming you have gunballs, you want to try to kill as many enemies as you can with them, rather than with the peashooteR?
05:53 < trap15> nah
05:53 < Zil> 90% of your kills are with gunballs anyway
05:53 < trap15> because it resets the 'gunball hit' counter to 0 each time the item comes out
05:53 < trap15> so getting anything past the quota is pointless
05:53 <%chumlum> huh...
05:54 < trap15> I mean, they do a lot more damage and are basically how you should be playing
05:54 < trap15> but you don't need to avoid using the peashooter
05:54 < Zil> there may be a few places where getting gunball quota could be tricky, but mainly I think the priority here is just killing as man things as possible
05:55 < trap15> when a dropper comes out, the 'kill' counter is reset to 0
05:55 < trap15> which is increased by killing anything
05:55 < trap15> with anything
05:55 < trap15> when a bonus item comes out, the 'gunball hit' counter is reset to 0
05:55 < trap15> and is increased by hitting things with gunballs
05:56 <%chumlum> and getting the dropper to come out requires you to kill a certain number of enemies which is what the kill column means?
05:56 < trap15> (if someone wants to rewrite this all in a way that isn't horrendously unintelligible, I'd appreciate it w)
05:56 < trap15> at least that many
05:56 < trap15> as soon as the 'kill' counter hits that number, the dropper spawns
05:57 <%chumlum> as soon as you hit the kill quota, the dropper appears, correct? it doesnt appear in a specific place at all times?
05:57 < trap15> yup
05:58 < trap15> their motions and spawn 'position' is predetermined
05:58 < trap15> but where in the game at all they spawn is user-driven
05:58 <%chumlum> can you get more than 16 droppers throughout the game?
05:58 < trap15> probably, it just loops
05:58 < trap15> like the bonuses
05:58 <%chumlum> cool
05:58 <%chumlum> wow, that is crazy
05:59 <%chumlum> i didnt realize you would get them in different places
05:58 < trap15> the big issue with the 'kill' counter is that it pauses whenever there's a non-picked-up gunball on screen
05:59 <%chumlum> i like that part
05:59 <%chumlum> so you want to be quick with picking them up
05:59 <%chumlum> and effective with the usage
05:59 <%chumlum> the 'kill' counter is also paused when the dropper is on screen?
06:00 < trap15> yes
06:00 < trap15> because the dropper carries un-acquired gunballs ;)
06:01 <%chumlum> so you also want to try to get rid of those quickly then
06:01 < trap15> yeah
06:01 <%chumlum> and try to get the correct gunballs from them at the same time...
06:01 <%chumlum> wow this is gonna turn into a hectic game
06:01 < trap15> I can't recall if the dropper itself pauses the timer
06:01 < trap15> but I know if it has gunballs out, it's paused
06:01 <%chumlum> well, that's moot anyhow, since it carries items
06:01 < trap15> right
06:01 <%chumlum> although there are dropper enemies that dont carry items in the game
06:01 <%chumlum> at least 2 of them
06:01 < trap15> hm?
06:01 <%chumlum> they have the same sprite
06:01 <%chumlum> but they are predetermined
06:01 < trap15> weird
06:02 < Zil> one is stage 7 like to spawn in the wall
06:02 < Zil> and be a total ass
06:02 <%chumlum> it's basically the same enemy except it just sits still until you move into a certain spot
06:02 < trap15> Zil: hah, that sounds like something that would happen with this
06:02 <%chumlum> oh yeah, about that
06:02 <%chumlum> some droppers will need to be dealt with in a more difficult manner
06:02 <%chumlum> in the stages where there's walls and stuff
06:03 < trap15> yeah, you pretty much need to steal their chain and then kill them in that case
06:03 <%chumlum> we'll have to try to steal all their gunballs to make sure none are being wasted
06:03 < trap15> yup
06:03 <%chumlum> but stealing the last one is hard
06:03 <%chumlum> so that'll be tricky
06:03 <%chumlum> kill them and they're scattered in such a way that they are often unreachable on those stages
06:03 <%chumlum> which stalls the counter
06:04 <%chumlum> at least the point items arent random then
06:04 <%chumlum> they always come in a certain order?
06:04 < trap15> yeah, the order I have on there is the order in the game
06:04 <%chumlum> BTW, the "hits" isnt synonymous with kills, right?
06:04 < trap15> the different difficulty settings actually have different bonus and dropper layouts too
06:04 < trap15> which I thought was kinda super interesting
06:04 <%chumlum> you said something about the gunballs counting as multiple hits when they pierce stuff
06:04 < trap15> correct
06:05 < trap15> they only count like that for the 'gunball hit' counter
06:05 <%chumlum> so using them well can actually trigger a lot of extra point items, it's not some small thing
06:05 <%chumlum> plus possibly extends
06:05 <%chumlum> no wonder the WR score is so high
06:05 <%chumlum> it's probably utilizes the gunballs extremely effectively
06:06 < trap15> yeah
06:06 <%chumlum> well this really changes everything. however, as you've mentioned, the standard gunballs are still random whent hey appear
06:06 < trap15> mostly
06:07 < trap15> I actually calculated the odds for each powerup type for each source
06:07 <%chumlum> one thing i noticed, is that the gunball cycle when you hit a dropper is strange
06:07 <%chumlum> it wont cycle through all the standard gunballs 
06:07 <%chumlum> like, it'll skip some
06:07 < trap15> correct
06:07 <%chumlum> is this random as well?
06:07 < trap15> cross-reference the ItemSet field with this: http://bpaste.net/show/PNDkEA1Igk71YPJHsKak/
06:07 <%chumlum> no wait, you put info on this
06:07 <%chumlum> my bad


06:08 < trap15> the item dropper shit is hilarious
06:08 < trap15> it rolls a random number 0 through 15
06:08 < trap15> if it's 0 it drops a speed up
06:08 < trap15> otherwise, it uses the old random number to pick a set
06:08 < trap15> then rolls another 0-15 for the actual result
06:08 < trap15> so as a result you never get set 0's influence
06:08 <%chumlum> item dropper refers to ther egular enemies that have 1 gunball?
06:08 < trap15> yeah
06:10 <%chumlum> im still a bit confused about the different item sets
06:10 <%chumlum> the chain droppers set is determined by your kills when it appears
06:11 < trap15> no
06:11 <%chumlum> but didnt the kills determined WHEN it appears as well?
06:11 < trap15> the chain droppers list is a queue
06:11 < trap15> just like the bonus items
06:11 <%chumlum> ahhhh
06:11 <%chumlum> but, then it isnt random after all?
06:11 < trap15> so you reach the first kill quota to get a dropper, then it resets
06:11 < trap15> hit the next one, etc.
06:11 < trap15> nope, nothing's random except for the gunballs
06:11 < trap15> and enemy behavior probably lol
06:12 <%chumlum> but i mean the gunball set
06:12 <%chumlum> oh wait
06:12 <%chumlum> im stupid
06:12 < trap15> lol
06:12 <%chumlum> they are random within the sets, i get it
06:12 <%chumlum> that's why sometimes you hit a dropper multiple time and it doesnt change the gunballs
06:13 < trap15> yup
06:13 <%chumlum> because RNG keeps giving you the same gunballs
06:13 < trap15> precisely
06:13 <%chumlum> i thought it was just some quirk or somethign
06:14 <%chumlum> so did we confirm that sweep and spiral are the best then?
06:14 < trap15> sweep is probably literally the best
06:14 < trap15> spiral is good
06:14 <%chumlum> im guessing fire is quite good as well, but rocket and spread are as good as useless
06:14 < trap15> rest are mostly shit
06:14 < trap15> fire is ok if you can figure out how to use it well
06:14 <%chumlum> fire can kill stuff OKAY
06:14 <%chumlum> but rocket and spread will leave many targets alive
06:14 < trap15> yeah
06:15 <%chumlum> does carrying more or less gunballs change anything?
06:15 <%chumlum> im guessing it does nothing?
06:15 < trap15> nothing as far as I know
06:15 < trap15> but I didn't look for rank yet
06:15 <%chumlum> i think using spread is good to take out chain droppers quickly
06:15 <%chumlum> that's probably about it for spread
06:15 <%chumlum> so it's not completely useless
06:16 <%chumlum> taking them out quickly will play a big role

[trap15]

Gemini Wing certainly seems influenced by Galaga, especially in the area of enemy AI/behavior and the obvious point that most enemies are bugs that want to swoop in and collide with you =P.

This is actually more of a Star Force thing, also by Tecmo. Most Tecmo STG follow the same stage design and enemy behavior styles, all basically inspired by Star Force. Where Star Force got its inspiration is something I don't know though.

For example, the soundtrack of Gemini Wing reminds me a lot of Apidya at times.

Considering the theming and that apparently Gemini Wing was released on Amiga, Apidya could probably have been somewhat inspired by it, sure.

The weird "battleship" in Stage 5 could even be an early prototype for the elongated space battleships that would later frequent Toaplan and Cave games. The pacing, long stages, and level design of Gemini Wing actually remind me a lot of Toaplan's Tatsujin, which would come out a year later. Maybe I'm reading into it too much and it's just coincidence, but it would be interesting if Gemini Wing actually was a source of inspiration for stuff like this.

This would be really cool, I wish I knew more about this as well.

[PAPER/ARTILLERY]

Arcane knowledge

There is absolutely no way I would have figured that out, I knew I was getting more drops the more destruction I was causing but I couldn't grasp the defining factors. Interesting stuff, hopefully it'll have some effect on my scoring.

[Ruldra]

So basically, kill as much as you can to trigger the chain droppers, and hit as much as possible with gunballs to trigger the score items and extends?

[Ed Oscuro]

best week ever returns with a vengeance. always good to see "obscure shit" get its due. always had a soft spot for this one, which helps!

[Icarus]

Good stuff trap, it's always interesting to see the inner workings of a game's systems and how it affects scoring.
Hopefully you or someone else will make use of the info and compile it for the Strategy section, rather than letting it get buried in Shmups Chat. :3

[chum]

Learning more about this game just makes me love it even more. Such a gem.

The final boss is still a huge asshole, though.

[Blackbird]

Had an amusing thought: I bet Gemini Wing has never been streamed on Twitch before this week.

Also discovered another interesting parallel. I read somewhere (can't remember now where it was) that the composer for Gemini Wing was Mikio Saito. According to wikipedia, Mikio Saito is/was a member of Konami's Kukeiha Club and also composed music for Dracula X/Castlevania: Rondo of Blood.

Perhaps this is why the music for Stage 4 of Gemini Wing has a Castlevania-like horror vibe to it?

The comparison to Star Force seems apt - Super Star Force came out a year earlier from Tecmo and had the same composer. Awesome soundtrack as well. Snap add to the STG OST compendium...

[mastermx]

The music in stages 3 and 4 remind me of the puzzle game "columns" on the Genesis.

[Tigershark]

So much excitement over such a shit game. Sorry, personal view obviously but this game is boring. Plugging away for the team but it feels such a chore.

[Aleksei]

got have way throught that transcript then tl;dr kicked in.

[Eaglet]

Ok, I've decided now.
I fucking hate this random ass bullshit piece of shit game.

[Kollision]

what do those numbered icons mean?

[EmperorIng]

Score bonuses. Like 20,000, 50,000, 10,000, etc.

[Blackbird]

So much excitement over such a shit game.

Eh, difference of opinion. I mean, the game isn't without flaws, but I think it's pretty damn good considering when it was made. I think the enemy patterns are just random enough to be interesting without being completely unpredictable; furthermore, even if the enemy position is semi-random, the individual enemy types/waves will always behave the same way, so you can plan a strategy for defeating each enemy type. The items are kind of the same bag. Yeah, they're semi-random, but you can manipulate when items you get my shooting the carriers and then swiping from them. I think this game has more "good RNG" than "bad RNG".

The only element I really dislike about this game is that death can sometimes ruin you. If you die at the bottom of the screen, you're basically guaranteed to lose all your gunballs, which makes for a difficult (but not impossible) recovery run depending on where you died. This is certainly not the first shmup I've played where that is the case, though =P.

[emphatic]

Bohoo, we can't memorize everything!

[chum]

There's not much RNG in this game...

Hint: a lot of enemy spawns are determined by your position, not random

[Zil]

There seems to be randomness in what the droppers will switch to when you shoot them. They may even simply fail to change at all. And obviously it becomes pretty unrealistic to go up and grab the things from them, especially since their appearances are near impossible to predict accurately. Then you have to just kill them and hope you get what you want, and the differences between the good items and the bad ones is astronomical. There's not even a spectrum - it's just total shit or nuke everything. The scattering of the items is also completely insane, especially in stages 3 and 7. A crucial item may simply fly into the wall and be impossible to reach. And I mean like, half the items from any given dropper will do that, if not more.

The more I play this game the less I like it. I may just scrub a no miss run and leave it at that.

e: Nevermind, I'm not wasting my weekend on this.

[Erppo]

The more I play this game the less I like it.

I agree.

[drunkninja24]

Ugh, barely gotten time into this one, and with UFGT this weekend I doubt I'll get much more :<

[Ruldra]

Last stage is complete BS and the final boss is a huge asshole. I don't think I'll have the patience to 1cc this. At least I was able to break the million point barrier.

[Eno]

I can't say I like this, but I gotta admit it feels really awesome when you're decently sped up and raining gumball death upon everything that moves while dodging the endless armies of kamikaze bugs. Recovery is a mess, but at least they give you a chance by scattering your balls over the screen rather than destroying them.
And I know "don't stay right under the boss when it first appears" is an unwritten rule of shmupping, but that stage 2 boss laser...

[spadgy]

I'm kind of besotted by Gemini Wing's charm and character, and it feels pretty advanced for 1987, but also... fuck the is bloody game! I cannot get past those vines towards what I presume is the end of stage 3. 1 life it to stage 3? Easy. Make it past the vines? Not yet! Grrr.

Still, for me one of the main thrills of an STGT is playing new games, and this ticks those boxes!

[Kollision]

1 life it to stage 3? Easy.

In all my runs I got slaughtered halfway stage 2 due to shitty items

but then I went on blindly and fiercefully - because Zorgaba canot wait!!!

[Blackbird]

My strategy for getting past the vines at the end of stage 3: Hug to one side of the wall and blast the vines down, then go to the opposite side and blast them down again. Then move up and towards the center (to avoid the vine regrowing into you) and slightly advance to the next set of two vines. Repeat until you have gotten through them all.

Stage 3 usually takes all my lives away, there are a few gauntlet sections where the game just throws a ton of enemies and shooters at you in a cramped corridor and I get overrun. I've gotta practice it some more. I had one run where I got to the Stage 4 boss and choked before reaching Stage 5, got so mad at myself >_<.