What do you think are the best beat 'em ups?

[Hagane]

I'm sure some people do find shmups boring...

Yes, and most of that people have no idea about how to play them and can't appreciate them.

[null1024]

the characteristics of the genre for me are:

-360° movement
-attacks exclusively in two opposing directions
-focus on close combat
-more than one aggressor during levels

games like Dynamite Deka belong to a different genre, imo.

Wait, how would Dynamite Deka be different? It hits on all four of those categories. It's visually presented in 3D, but functions as a 2D style beat-em-up.

[Leandro]

Streets of Rage games do have lots of enemies on screen in the higher difficulty settings.

The best beat'em up overall is Cadillacs & Dinosaurs. It does every basic thing of the genre perfectly: the movement is really fluid without being loose, the characters controls are fast, precise and feels better than any other game in the genre; the simple act of pressing the button to punch and kick baddies are also at the apex of the genre here - it feels great to just hit the enemy with the default combo since it looks and sounds so potent and damaging.
For an arcade game it has a balanced difficulty, very doable 1cc on default setting.

The soundtrack is memorable, featuring mostly upbeat, high-energy tracks with some moody interludes.

It just does everything right and on point. Capcom refined the Final Fight formula to perfection with this game.

[BIL]

Good thread! I regrettably still don't have much experience with arcade beltscrollers beyond Final Fight, which I still need to finish. But if Friendly ever checks back in he'll be happy to know I'm getting a PS3 just for the D&D pack. Roll on more licensed Capcom beaters pls.

I do agree with Hagane on the parallel between beltscroller and shooter level design. Just going by mildly demanding stuff like Splatterhouse Part 3, there can be a lot of variation and depth in this supposedly bare-bones genre if enemy placement and design is done well.

+1 for the original Dynamite Deka being a beltscroller, more than anything else... the sequels (and Zombie Revenge) definitely enter general 3D action territory with their free movement, but the original is pretty much a beltscroller via Virtua Fighter. It rocks too, despite the goofy low-poly characters it brings the violence.

[Imhotep]

Wait, how would Dynamite Deka be different? It hits on all four of those categories. It's visually presented in 3D, but functions as a 2D style beat-em-up.

attack range is 360° opposed to:

-attacks exclusively in two opposing directions

I think this point is essential for the distinctive gameplay experience.

[evil_ash_xero]

I think Dynamite Deka is an old school beat 'em up, personally.

[BIL]

Does the first Deka have 360' attacks? I know it has leg sweeps and the like for hitting either side of the player, but I don't recall them functioning any differently than something like Final Fight's super attacks.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I think Warriors of Fate (PSX port, loading pauses and all) was the only one that did for me what those games are supposed to do. Always thought The Punisher looked badass, but never played it.
I have a soft spot for The Red Star and Mortal Kombat: Shaolin Monks, but don't consider these quite the same genre (nevertheless both are playable in local co-op).
God Hand is more of Onimusha on 'shrooms (both are fighting games first and foremost, but tank controls make for a wildly different experience in my book). Admittedly, Onimusha games from 3 onwards lost some of their fringe appeal (Dawn of Dreams brought co-op to the table, however, which is most commendable).
Another "impure" brawler I enjoyed back in the day was Return of the King (again, co-op).

[BIL]

Not only for its well-known genesis via Biohazard and Onimusha, I always considered the first DMC and the legion of imitators (good and bad) that followed it a mutant hybrid of Code: Veronica's environments and Super Mario 64's controls. Never considered it to be in the same genre as Final Fight, any more than Panzer Dragoon and Rayforce.

Beltscrollers and STGs are both so ripe for forum genre warring, aren't they? :p

[Imhotep]

Does the first Deka have 360' attacks? I know it has leg sweeps and the like for hitting either side of the player, but I don't recall them functioning any differently than something like Final Fight's super attacks.

it doesn't, my bad, mistook it for its sequel.

sorry for that!

so, agreed, it belongs to the genre discussed here.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Co-op seems to be much more genre-defining in case of beat 'em ups than shmups. That's why I think MK: Shaolin Monks spiritually belongs where DMC does not (despite the former being mechanically a clone of the latter).
Although Onimusha has more in common with Diablo and Japanese takes on Diablo formula (dungeon modes in Tobal 1&2 and Ehrgeiz, as well as Crimson Tears).

[trap15]

Probably, in order:

Guardians / Denjin Makai 2
Combatribes
Knights of Valour series.

[Mortificator]

Co-op seems to be much more genre-defining in case of beat 'em ups than shmups.

Yeah, it's sad to think of someone playing a Mystara or X-Men cabinet all by himself. Anyone walking into an old-school arcade knew that brawlers were the mainstream and social choice. Still, there are a lot of them near and dear to me...


Capcom cabs:

Final Fight
Knights of the Round
The Punisher
Alien vs. Predator
Armored Warriors


Other arcade titles:

Kunio
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles
X-Men
Golden Axe
Captain America and The Avengers
Battletoads
Prisoners of War
Ninja Ryukenden
Light Bringer


Console games:

Double Dragon II
Final Fight Tough
Batman Returns
Maximum Carnage
King of the Monsters 2


Remakes:

Double Dragon Advance
Streets of Rage Remake


3D:

Final Fight Streetwise
God Hand
Mortal Kombat: Shaolin Monks
Zombie Revenge

Never really understood the appeal of River City Ransom either. BARF!

The graphics and humor, I guess. The core game mechanics sure aren't impressive.

[trap15]

As a solo thing, it's not that great; with a good friend, River City Ransom is great fun.

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

I love this genre. Slightly disappointed to see so few Battle Circuit mentions in this thread; it and Alien vs. Predator are definitely my favorites. I love Battle Circuit for its complexity and fantastic character variety (although it is kind of a shame that the game seems to be on the easy side of Capcom's beat-em-ups, and there aren't as many fights against large groups of enemies as I'd like) and Alien vs. Predator for its speed and intensity (but I'm not a fan of the gun system, it adds a layer of micromanagement that doesn't appeal to me). I like Cadillacs and Dinosaurs a lot too, though that's largely because of how "visceral" the combat feels compared to a lot of its peers.

I'm not really as much of a fan of the Streets of Rage games. 2 is too slow-paced and drawn-out for me, and although 3 goes a long way to remedy that, attacks in that game lack weight, and it feels kind of unsatisfying to play. Streets of Rage Remake plays really well, but I think I appreciate it more for its large amount of content than for its mechanics.

What genre is God Hand?

I love God Hand, but I don't think I would call it a beat-em-up. It's just a 3D action game. It's similar to beat-em-ups aesthetically, but in terms of how spacing and crowd control work, it's further removed from arcade beat-em-ups than Devil May Cry (and I don't think I'd count that game as one either). It doesn't make a lot of sense to me to use the term "beat-em-up" to refer to games that aren't (excuse the general term) "Final-Fight-likes". I've always thought of it as a very specific subgenre of the action game genre, and I think using it broadly sort of makes it a meaningless term.

Admittedly, I haven't played Dynamite Deka (it does seem like the truest interpretation of the beat-em-up in 3D I've seen) and I have extremely limited experience with Koei games.

[KAI]

What genre is God Hand?

God Action

[Hagane]

Beat'em ups are about as much of multiplayer games as STGs. Some have incentives to play with other people (like Mystara which adds a few things besides just upping the rank), but they are primarily single player games with multiplayer added in as an option, not as a "defining" thing at all.

(but I'm not a fan of the gun system, it adds a layer of micromanagement that doesn't appeal to me)

I like it, to me it's the evolution of the (rather arbitrary and abusable) one in The Punisher, aids in combos and crowd control without being too abusable (though Linn with her reload cancel breaks the game a bit).

[louisg]

What are some of the most fair beat 'em ups? I eventually got really good at Dynamite Deka and could 1-credit pretty far in (second-to-last level I think?). What are some others that don't have a lot of cheap hits and have good variety in the enemies?

Hah, I did like Zombie Revenge too, despite it being stiff and kind of amateurish. The DC modes I think fix up the balance a bit, though the damage model is way too harsh in general on that one. But it's a new-jack 3d beat 'em up-- basically a top-view beat 'em up

[Hagane]

Depends on what you call cheap hits. What a lot of people think are cheap hits is just letting enemies get too close or attacking them straight from their front side... you have to learn your attack ranges, their attack ranges, and hit them from outside their attacks (either by attacking from max range or the sides / back, or using weapons / throwing enemies to get in, etc). That way you will always hit them safely.

If you just get to point blank range and try to react to every attack then yes, you will hit a lot in most games.

[trap15]

There are very few with actual "cheap hits" that occur commonly. It's all about learning how the enemy AI works and reacts to your actions. Once you've figured them out, you can usually exploit that to avoid being hit. Crowd control, as they call it

[Hagane]

It's not so much about exploiting AI as attacking safely and having enemies neatly arranged instead of scattered away, minding your positioning relative to enemies and screen, among other factors. I'm writing a guide to help people with the basics so I will go into more detail there.

[BIL]

Hah, I did like Zombie Revenge too, despite it being stiff and kind of amateurish. The DC modes I think fix up the balance a bit, though the damage model is way too harsh in general on that one. But it's a new-jack 3d beat 'em up-- basically a top-view beat 'em up

Zombie Revenge is an odd one. I utterly detest the two human characters and their stiff, stupid-looking moves, but the 70s yakuza cyborg character = FUCKIN RAD. If I'm going to beat on dead things I'd better be rocking more than the average street brawler (see also Splatterhouse Part 3). Quite a fun game as him, albeit still rather stiff and demanding some studied workarounds for comfortable play (if DMC was developed from a survival horror base, ZR pretty much still is survival horror with beater elements applied).

Both ZR and Deka 2 pale in comparison to the purity of the first DD, though. Deka 2 would instantly become a helluva lot better if it simply had more enemies onscreen - there aren't enough to keep up with the expanded player moveset, let alone the powerup mode, making the game a total cakewalk (if a fun one - wrenching a urinal free of the wall and lethally smashing it over a fucker's head never gets old). Shame the enemy count wasn't upped for the DC port. At least survival mode can get intense. I wonder if the third game/DD2 Black Label improved on this at all.

[andsuchisdeath]

Final Fight


Denjin Makaii II

[Obiwanshinobi]

Beat'em ups are about as much of multiplayer games as STGs. Some have incentives to play with other people (like Mystara which adds a few things besides just upping the rank), but they are primarily single player games with multiplayer added in as an option, not as a "defining" thing at all.

I know of many single player-only shmups, but not a single Final Fight-like.
P.S. It seems Franko: The Crazy Revenge is not multiplayer, but since there are two playable characters (one dead according to the story), I think the original concept was 2 player. I wonder about Doman: Grzechy Ardana...

[BIL]

Pretty sure the original Kunio game (Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-Kun) lacks co-op. It may technically be the first beltscroller as well, and is certainly owed a debt by Final Fight.

There's Splatterhouse Part 3 if we're including home originals, too (as opposed to downsized console/computer ports).

edit: holy shit. You do come up with some interesting stuff Obi. That's the attract sequence of my dreams. A crazy revenge indeed, Final Fight sprite and sound rips and all.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Renegade surely was popular on platforms where co-op would drastically hit the performance (or number of enemies on screen).

[BIL]

The arcade game regularly puts seven characters onscreen simultaneously including Kunio himself, pretty sure it could've technically supported a second player. If anything I can imagine Technos not doing so since the game's very concept is lone wolf crowd control, as reflected by the bidirectional attack and actively treacherous enemy AI. Even Riki, the usual 2P character in later games, gets his ass handed to him by Kunio here.

Co-op was certainly a good decision for the genre fiscally, as their later Double Dragon showed.

[Hagane]

I know of many single player-only shmups, but not a single Final Fight-like.

I don't know many single player only STGs. Most have at least a 2P option, and some even have special combined attacks such as the Raiden series. They are primarily designed as single player games, just like belt scrollers, though. Just because the option is there doesn't mean that they are designed around it (on the other hand, fighting games are designed around multiplayer, even if you can play them single player if you want).

[BIL]

This brings to mind Toaplan's Kyuukyoku Tiger and Hellfire, both of which were designed and released as solitary man vs CPU games in Japan, then given entirely new 2P coop modes for their overseas versions, simply since the more profitable thing in the late 80s West was to ditch the checkpoints and let ass kick together with the bros and some brewskis (per Uemura, "Toaplan Forever" translation @ gamengai).

In a way, Double Dragon II (AC) is Kunio Kun Overseas 2P version. Same one vs many controls and crowd AI, but now you can bring a bro. Final Fight coming out when it did, Capcom would've been foolish to not include 2P coop from the get-go, even if the game does very much excel as a Kunio-style lone wolf brawler.

[Mortificator]

Just because the option is there doesn't mean that they are designed around it

Except when they are.

Mystara was made with multiplayer in mind

We designed Mystara around multiplayer

Kunio's designed for one player and one credit, yet the genre didn't take off until its successor, and that game's creator says it was designed for co-op (as if the title didn't make it obvious enough... it's not called Single Dragon).