What do you think are the best beat 'em ups?

[Ed Oscuro]

Got to ask though, isn't any game going to dry if you use the same move on repeat? This is a prob I find with the entire genre: it often pays far more to stick to repetitive exploits than use the repertoire on offer.

Perhaps this is what Ed meant when he suggested the genre isn't very intuitive.

Not sure how that would be a case of a game being unintuitive. Broken exploits are very intuitive

I wouldn't fault the whole genre for the missteps of one game (or for the missteps of a group of games with similar exploits) any more than I would say "shmups suck because of safespots." We know that ain't true either.

But yeah, I did try out Caddy & Dinos, and while I had trouble pulling that move off consistently (still gotta work out the kinks) it really does destroy not only the balance but the gameplay.

Solution is to just play as somebody else, or not abuse that particular move.

[Leandro]

Slide guy is good too, but not as good as Mustapha.

No, Jack Tenrec isn't good for begginers. His jab range sucks, his slide doesn't knockdown sometimes and leaves him wide open for retaliation. And that is coming from someone who already 1cced the game with him.

The best character in the game is Mess, followed by Mustapha. Drop kick is really good, yeah really good, but it's not the only thing that works in this game. After you learn to play the game, Mess stands out as the more efficient character overall.

Best channel in youtube for C&D: http://www.youtube.com/user/michaelpf08 ... =cadillacs

Game is dry because there's not much to do.

Well, you just described the beat'em up genre. Complex combos, juggles, street fighter esque moves were nice additions to the genre later on, but they are in no way essential to make a good beat'em up game. Final Fight is as "dry" as you can get and yet it's still considered the best by some. Doing the basics right is the most important thing.

You forgot to mention the use of guns, and the fact that you can carry wooden barrels, really useful to get the food inside it to where you want in some parts, like the final boss. Anyway, what little C&D does, it does extremely well.

[Ed Oscuro]

I will check out that channel

Aside from the transparency stuff I mentioned earlier, that "dryness" is something that holds back my enthusiasm a bit. It's quite simple to have a good time in a game like Psycho-Nics Oscar and you need to track fewer things, in terms of mechanics, in order to play competently (the slack is taken up by puzzling through and reacting to situations that challenge that relatively limited moveset in the typical platformer, for example).

[Hagane]

Yeah, other games add much more stuff to the basics, which is why they are deeper and more interesting than a game which only has the basics.
Final Fight could only be considered the best by people who haven't played any newer Capcom titles or nostalgics... it has been outclassed in every single way.

Haha, and I see C&D has Final Fight-like turnaround infinites too... (edit) ah, not quite infinites, though the concept is the same.

[cj iwakura]

I'd say either Streets of Rage, Final Fight, Guardian Heroes, and River City Ransom.

I'd love to put newer ones like Double Dragon Neon, Scott Pilgrim & Castle Crashers higher, but they just feel off somehow.

[Ed Oscuro]

Neon felt way off. Who needs balance when you have cassette tapes?

[Leandro]

I will check out that channel

Aside from the transparency stuff I mentioned earlier, that "dryness" is something that holds back my enthusiasm a bit. It's quite simple to have a good time in a game like Psycho-Nics Oscar and you need to track fewer things, in terms of mechanics, in order to play competently (the slack is taken up by puzzling through and reacting to situations that challenge that relatively limited moveset in the typical platformer, for example).

I will check this game out, the japanese flyer looks great. I disagree about all this "dry" labeling though, unless it's about Captain Commando, which I find bland as hell.

Yeah, definitely check out that channel, there's a Mustapha No Drop Kick No Death video there by the way...
And plenty of other games

[Obiwanshinobi]

I know Double Dragon for the old Game Boy is quite essentially different from the original, but is it any good?

[Ed Oscuro]

It's pretty simple but seems to have the basics. It's not bad, I think, and captures that dev's feel very well with the sprites, animation, and other details.

[Obiwanshinobi]

What about the first GB Battletoads, then? Or Battletoads & Double Dragon for that matter.
WWF Superstars didn't seem awful from what little I played, so Rare should be able to develop a decent game of the genre.

[DQuick]

I know Double Dragon for the old Game Boy is quite essentially different from the original, but is it any good?

I loved DD on Gameboy back in the day. It's on the Gameboy so you can't expect too much but it's an enjoyable title. DD 2&3 on Gameboy are terrible.

[MOSQUITO FIGHTER]

I wonder if it's possible to 1cc Battletoads arcade? I like the game really well, but it just kicks my teeth in every time I try to play it seriously.

[BrianC]

I know Double Dragon for the old Game Boy is quite essentially different from the original, but is it any good?

I loved DD on Gameboy back in the day. It's on the Gameboy so you can't expect too much but it's an enjoyable title. DD 2&3 on Gameboy are terrible.

The GB is more capable than it gets credit for (especially considering what companies were able to do with later games on the system like the non land Donkey Kong). The poor quality of DD3 certainly isn't its fault (need to play DD2 more to know how good it is, but it didn't seem too bad, from what I played, though more basic than DD1). DD2 wasn't originally a Double Dragon and was originally a Kunio game that played more like Renegade, but with DD style controls. DD3 is a port of a game that wasn't even good in arcades from a company with an iffy track record (and other ports of DD3 were just as bad).

Battletoads on GB isn't bad. It seems to be a bit easier than the NES one, though it still gets hard in later stages. It plays similar to the NES one, though the game is unique to GB. I heard mixed things about Battletoads and Double Dragon GB.

[Kaiser]

I wonder if it's possible to 1cc Battletoads arcade? I like the game really well, but it just kicks my teeth in every time I try to play it seriously.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVKveecDBl4 Yes it is

[MOSQUITO FIGHTER]

I wonder if it's possible to 1cc Battletoads arcade? I like the game really well, but it just kicks my teeth in every time I try to play it seriously.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVKveecDBl4 Yes it is

I was not expecting that all. I really do think that it is one of the better beat 'em ups now. Probably the only good thing EA has ever done. Not that they had that much to do with it.

Don't see much talk about 3D beat 'em ups in the thread. I like God Hand, Dyanamite Cop, and Zombie Revenge. God Hand is the best. I haven't been that obsessed with a beat 'em up since Final Fight. I'm sure there are more worth checking out. Any suggestions?

[heisenbergman]

Beat 'em ups are usually played co-op right?

But can they be played single-player? Does the difficulty scale according to the number of players?

[Hagane]

From my experience, beat'em ups are usually rather poor in multiplayer, unless it's Shadow Over Mystara (IF you have knowledgeable partners). Rank significantly goes up in multiplayer, and several games have two bosses at the same time and many more enemies, completely changing the experience. Then there's the issue of skill disparity... if the other player isn't very familiar with the game, doesn't have a good multiplayer strategy or just plays the same as in single player, things can get frustrating fast. You'll drop combos because your partner scrolled the screen or hit your enemy at a wrong time, maybe he picked up an item you needed, or he just refuses to follow a combined strategy and does his thing, or perhaps you get a credit feeder who spams magic, dies, spams magic, dies, spams magic... you get the idea. And even if you get a good partner, playing these games multiplayer means that you have to follow a specific role, which often can be more boring than just doing it all by yourself. You'll sometimes have to just sit there and do nothing until you are required to.

These games can be played perfectly fine in single player, and in most cases I have much more fun playing that way since they are mostly balanced that way.

[Obiwanshinobi]

What games of any genre did you enjoy in co-op?

Don't see much talk about 3D beat 'em ups in the thread. I like God Hand, Dyanamite Cop, and Zombie Revenge. God Hand is the best. I haven't been that obsessed with a beat 'em up since Final Fight. I'm sure there are more worth checking out. Any suggestions?

The Red Star and Mortal Kombat: Shaolin Monks.

Isn't Battletoads & Double Dragon: The Ultimate Team one of the first crossover fighting games? Seems to predate all "vs" fighters known to me.

[ChurchOfSolipsism]

Not really into old school stuff like Final Fight, but I enjoy Battle Circuit quite a lot: beating enemies up has agreat feel to it and the "buy new moves" system is simple and works well plus you actually use the new moves because they're, um, useful. Armored Warriors is pretty solid, too.

Haven't really put a lot of time into IGS's games although I have all of their PGM1 beat em ups lying around. They have fantastic sprite graphics/ animations, good combo systems and feel great.

[Skykid]

Just 1cc'd Bare Knuckle III tonight w/2 lives in stock. Really does have the best combat, but should be played only on hard - it's very easy on defaults. Kind of a shame more wasn't done with it. The vibe is nice and it's got great presentation, but it's short, the last boss in an anti-climatic pushover compared to the main event of MR.X's BK2 machine-gunning, and the ending is slightly weak. The second is probably too long, conversely, so there's not much of a halfway house, but I think the audio counts for so much in these games that I'd give BK2 the edge - it's the most exciting. It's also a way tougher 1cc on defaults than BK3.

[Drum]

I really don't like BK2's music. It's corny early 90s club dribble. Not at all his best work.

[Despatche]

DD3 is a port of a game that wasn't even good in arcades from a company with an iffy track record (and other ports of DD3 were just as bad).

Wrong! Very wrong. Recently I've discovered just how good Double Dragon III really is, and just how awful Double Dragon the series is.

Double Dragon and II have poor controls and dumb slowdown everywhere; III has none of these things, though it has strange movement (which can probably be abused) and that stupid shop, the latter of which can easily be rectified by playing the Japanese version which even has more content. As for "track record", East Technology made the excellent Gigandes; no more needs to be said. Meanwhile, Double Dragon and II on the FC are so hilariously easy that they're pointless, though they run much better than the arcade versions and II somehow makes the stupid controls work (I guess it's the combination of other factors that usually make them terrible); III is actually hard (if you really need a hand, try the slightly easier Japanese version) and does something warranting respect (no continues AND no lives, fuck yeah). By the way, III FC was made by Technos. Basically, it's not at all clear why people hate III so much, but I now know that almost none of the complaints are based in reality... guess it's time to try the Mega Drive version?

And don't even get me started on Return (yes, RETURN, not Super); that game is easily the worst in an already terrible series, and is everything people think III is. Moving on, I do have to ask what the point of such a poor series is when games like Final Fight exist... but even Crime Fighters with its weirdo collision detection is more interesting than anything Double Dragon sans III has shown me.

(Seriously, you don't need fucking "left" and "right" buttons, just be sensible and have an "attack" and "back attack".)

[BrianC]

DD3 is a port of a game that wasn't even good in arcades from a company with an iffy track record (and other ports of DD3 were just as bad).

Wrong! Very wrong. Recently I've discovered just how good Double Dragon III really is, and just how awful Double Dragon the series is.

Double Dragon and II have poor controls and dumb slowdown everywhere; III has none of these things, though it has strange movement (which can probably be abused) and that stupid shop, the latter of which can easily be rectified by playing the Japanese version which even has more content. As for "track record", East Technology made the excellent Gigandes; no more needs to be said. Meanwhile, Double Dragon and II on the FC are so hilariously easy that they're pointless, though they run much better than the arcade versions and II somehow makes the stupid controls work (I guess it's the combination of other factors that usually make them terrible); III is actually hard (if you really need a hand, try the slightly easier Japanese version) and does something warranting respect (no continues AND no lives, fuck yeah). By the way, III FC was made by Technos. Basically, it's not at all clear why people hate III so much, but I now know that almost none of the complaints are based in reality... guess it's time to try the Mega Drive version?

And don't even get me started on Return (yes, RETURN, not Super); that game is easily the worst in an already terrible series, and is everything people think III is. Moving on, I do have to ask what the point of such a poor series is when games like Final Fight exist... but even Crime Fighters with its weirdo collision detection is more interesting than anything Double Dragon sans III has shown me.

(Seriously, you don't need fucking "left" and "right" buttons, just be sensible and have an "attack" and "back attack".)

Actually, I was referring to the Gameboy DD3 as "the port of the game" and "other ports" was referring mostly to the computer ports, which doesn't include the NES/FC version. The company with an iffy track record I was referring to were the developers of the Gameboy DD3 and a few of the computer ports, Sales Curve. I mentioned in another thread that I liked the NES DD3. My impressions of the arcade DD3 came from the US version with the annoying shop.

DD2 FC seems to be much harder on the JP difficult mode, which is different from the US Supreme Master mode. How is it still stupidly easy? What's wrong with Return of Double Dragon? It seems to be more polished than Super and fighting seems solid.

[Khan]

This along with 1v1 fighters are and have always been my most favorite genres so its no surprise ive got most of the roms on mame/winkawaks (since I couldnt really afford the pcbs)

I'm surprised no ones mentioned any of IGS's recent efforts such as Oriental Legends 2, Knights of Valour 3, The Gladiator ect the best thing about these are the multiple paths the different combinations that can be pulled off along with 4 player co-op and the different tag specials that can be pulled off almost rpg'ish with leveling up and shop system. Alot of those ideas have been blatantly taken from capcoms offerings but regardless the games have their own feel to them.

Ive had tons of fun with those games they are expensive and alot of my friends have asked why pay so much for something that would take only 2 hrs to finish its simply because of the most amazing memories i have with this particular genre. My only regret is that they are not available outside their hardware/platform (pgm1/2/3) I would be willing to bet if there was a group with wealth who could do a deal with perhaps publishing knights of valour 3/oriental legends 2 over onto psn/xbox live with igs then maybe it would inspire new devs to revive the genre I mean just looking at recent success with castle crashers/dragons crown/code of princess ect as long as there is some depth to the game and re-playability then im sure people would be willing to part with their cash and bash some faces in! instead of playing fifa or cod 24/7 and truthfully if they were available on either console I probably would sell all my pgm 1/2/3 collection and be able to play with 3 other people even if they are half way across the world

Then there is the force modes from the Tekken 3+ series which i quite enjoyed. I liked the 3d backgrounds in knights of valour seven spirits blending 3d backgrounds with 2d chars its something new and not seen very often. Panzer bandit on psx deserves a mention also Get backers dakkanoku zenin shuugou and a few others which I doubt anyones mentioned in the thread

Legend of silkroad
Age of heroes (sequel to the above)
Sengoku 1-3
rushing beat series (snes)
streets of rage series (megadrive)
mortal kombat shaolin monks (ps2)
mortal kombat mythologies (ps1)

I have tons more especially in mame but im too tired to turn my mame comp on atm hehe

[Wyrmnus]

Streets of Rage 2/3, and Dungeon Fighter Online.

[Xyga]

Streets of Rage 2.
It's not the best in every aspect, far from it actually, but I've never enjoyed punching and slapping punks around more than in this game.
It's probably due to the perfectly timed gameplay mechanics, I mean sprites don't have advanced animations and there's no force feedback, but I can almost feel the hits landing.
Sweet, enjoyable and relaxing violence.
Some say it's too easy but damn I have yet to clear it in hardest mode with Blaze, it's insane.

EDIT: oh and I've read several people giving their vote to Denjin Makai II, but I've never been able to play the original (mame emulation is not perfect). Strange game but quite impressive.

[evil_ash_xero]

Since the remaster is coming out (and why can it not be on all the systems...seriously?), what do you guys think of Castle Crashers?
I have problems with the flash animation...but it's a lot of fun.

Also, Scott Pilgrim angers me. It could be really good, but you just sorta putt about. They should patch that or something. (and that's not going to happen, as it's not even on XBLA anymore)

[Skykid]

I really don't like BK2's music. It's corny early 90s club dribble. Not at all his best work.

Return your ears to the manufacturer. Mark label as "faulty".

[copy-paster]

not as good as Mustapha.

I feel same, it looks bland and uninspiring compare to the awesome The Punisher and AvP and I didn't enjoy the game much. But in my country Mustapha being most popular brawler on most local game centers, even I watch some kids circa 10-14 yo beat it on one credit.

A bit trivia : Arcade games are called "Dingdong" in here.

[trap15]

I really don't like BK2's music. It's corny early 90s club dribble. Not at all his best work.

Return your ears to the manufacturer. Mark label as "faulty".