What do you think are the best beat 'em ups?

[BIL]

Thanks for the Kishimoto interview link, interesting read! The closest I've seen to a Technos insider interview prior to this was Muneki Ebinuma's DD Advance one at the DD Dojo.

There was a girl and she dumped me, which pulled the trigger.

Awesome quote.

Higher-ups suggested a two-player game because it could earn more money in arcades

All very similar to the "Double Tiger" situation with Toaplan, then. I wonder if Taito had something to do with this as well, with them being arcade distributors for both Toaplan and Technos in the US/Europe.

I also wonder if Double Dragon II having Kunio-style attacks and cooperative play was some kind of a design compromise. It certainly plays more interestingly in singleplayer than the first game.

[Hagane]

In the interview they said they were surprised with TOD's multiplayer success, so they increased the multiplayer aspects, but at its core Mystara is still a single player game, and the basics from previous Capcom games apply perfectly. You now just have a few extras (most of which you can still access in single player) as an incentive, instead of just higher rank.

—Somehow Tower of Doom felt like a game that was meant to be played single-player. By adding the Thief and Magic User and having many character choices, were you trying to emphasize multiplayer in Shadow over Mystara?

Kataoka: That’s right. People really liked playing Tower of Doom multiplayer, more than we expected, so we’ve featured it in the sequel. And, you know, the Magic User is also a character I personally really wanted to add. (laughs) This is a sword and sorcery tale, so we wanted to make the magic look more cool and flashy.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

In the interview... but at its core Mystara is still a single player game

That's not what's in the interview.

—Finally, to the players, would you like to say a word about how you think Shadow over Mystara should be enjoyed?

Kataoka: Sure, well, Mystara was made with multiplayer in mind, and we wanted to create something you could excitedly play together with your friends, something with a pleasure distinct from vs. fighting games. Please enjoy it to your heart’s content.

Sadamoto: We designed Mystara around multiplayer, so we do hope players enjoy it that way. Also, we wanted to bring back things like items and shops which used to be in arcade games, so I hope players enjoy the collecting aspect too.

Yamawaki: I think its fun to be calling out and shouting to your friends in a multiplayer game. Please communicate with each other while you play.

Yes, it's fun and entirely playable in single player, but if the designer says it's meant as a multiplayer game, you don't get to go correcting him as if you know better.

[Hagane]

That's not what's in the interview.

It is, that's where I got the quote from. Mystara is barely different from previous belt scrollers in that regard. It just has a few extra bits to incentive multiplayer, not a multiplayer based game.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I don't know many single player only STGs.

Most Caravans I believe. Wasn't R-Type Dimensions the first co-op R-Type ever? About every SNES shmup that wasn't Strike Gunner S.T.G. Actually I don't think co-op was typical of console shmups.

[BIL]

^nope, R-Type Leo is co-op.

[Imhotep]

on a side note, I don't fully like the term "belt scroller", although it's still better than the very general sounding "scrolling beat 'em up" or the like.

the scrolling playfield aspect is not a distinctive aspect of the gameplay, I can well imagine an arena-based game with the same gameplay fully intact.

I'd suggest something like "belt fighting game", with the term "belt" hinting at the belt-like area of interaction strictly in front and behind of the character.

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

I like it, to me it's the evolution of the (rather arbitrary and abusable) one in The Punisher, aids in combos and crowd control without being too abusable (though Linn with her reload cancel breaks the game a bit).

I must have been tired when I wrote that. I don't mean to say that I dislike the guns each character comes with - that's one of my favorite aspects - but I don't like having to manage the ammo of guns that soldier enemies drop in order to play efficiently. The concept is interesting, but in practice I think I'd rather not have to worry about that.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

but at its core Mystara is still a single player game

From this interview?

Kataoka: Sure, well, Mystara was made with multiplayer in mind

Sadamoto: We designed Mystara around multiplayer

They're saying multiplayer is considered the 'core'/intended way to play, with single player being available when, y'know, you don't have someone else to play with. I'm not really sure why you're claiming otherwise in Mystara's case. Unless of course you're prepared to argue that any game that offers a single player option therefore makes single player the 'core' gameplay, and multiplayer just an add-on. Street Fighter multiplayer? Pfft, the 'core' gameplay in a vs fighting game is against the computer in single player!

[BIL]

on a side note, I don't fully like the term "belt scroller", although it's still better than the very general sounding "scrolling beat 'em up" or the like.

the scrolling playfield aspect is not a distinctive aspect of the gameplay, I can well imagine an arena-based game with the same gameplay fully intact.

The original Kunio is pretty much the type of game you describe. Each stage is effectively an arena with limited scrolling to the left and right, and of course the "belt" perspective and 2D combat. Actually, the first Dynamite Deka is this way too - you only ever move from place to place during cutscenes, otherwise you're confined to a single location while fighting, and strictly in two dimensions. Deka 2 is similar but ditches the 2D, becoming a more general 3D brawler.

The perspective and movement are the defining traits for sure. Double Dragon clearly made enough of an impact that its scrolling playfields became the industry standard, and I guess the accepted term for these games followed suit. There's probably a parallel to Xevious and its effect on the "scrolling shooter" genre here, too.

[Hagane]

BareknuckleRoo:

So well, tell me which specific system changes are there in Mystara that radically change its single player basics to make it a multiplayer based game (as oppossed to being a refined TOD with some multiplayer extras thrown in).

I couldn't care less about interview quotes. Sometimes they say they were surprised with TOD's multiplayer success and just wanted to increase multiplayer aspects (what actually happened) and then they say it's based around multiplayer. They also say the Magic User is meant to be played in a team while it's the easiest character to 1CC the game with in solo, that Mystara and AvsP are easy user friendly games and TOD hardcore, among other dubious things. So I prefer to base my arguments on how the game actually plays rather than quotes.

I must have been tired when I wrote that. I don't mean to say that I dislike the guns each character comes with - that's one of my favorite aspects - but I don't like having to manage the ammo of guns that soldier enemies drop in order to play efficiently. The concept is interesting, but in practice I think I'd rather not have to worry about that.

Ah, you meant weapon drops. Yeah I don't entirely like them, but because they can make some parts trivial. The Pulse Guns particularly make sections with soldiers very simple, while parts with Aliens (which have no firearms) are quite hard. So you end up with an extremely difficult stage 4, and then a very easy stage 5 and first half of 6.

[Obiwanshinobi]

the scrolling playfield aspect is not a distinctive aspect of the gameplay, I can well imagine an arena-based game with the same gameplay fully intact.

WWF Superstars (at least on the Game Boy) and Aggressors of Dark Kombat.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Who says that a game needs radical interface/gameplay changes to be designed around a multiplayer experience? Subtle game balance itself is enough to factor into game design. I haven't played Mystara enough to be good at it, but I'll trust the people who, y'know, made the game when they say they designed ToD's sequel around being a multiplayer game.

I can think of many other games where you can play through in single player, but the game either isn't fun, or simply isn't balanced for single player at the higher difficulties (Score Rush MP's Godlike difficulty is the biggest example here). Games where multiplayer makes a clear, distinct difference in terms of the enjoyment of the game and the intended experience of the game. The problem lies in that you're using 'core' as a means of suggesting it's the 'correct' way to play, when really, 'core' simply suggests the most basic way to play a game. But that is not necessarily the way game designers had in mind when they were working on game balance. Besides, it's entirely possible that a game gets made with multiplayer in mind, and later on people find ways of quite handily clearing it in single player (be it through AI abuse tricks, or simply strategies the devs hadn't thought of) because there's more people playing, greater knowledge about the game.

[Hagane]

Well, if you say the game is based around multiplayer, then there should be enough changes to make that true. Otherwise it's just them trying to get people to spend more quarters, the way I see it. The multiplayer components are just extras rather than something central. The extra routes you can still get in single player with the proper characters (though having more characters means you can have more extra routes in a single session), the extra rooms with the four ground switches can still be entered in single player... then there's the Ultimate Magic and... what else? Nothing that makes it change focus so much, really.

Even though there's a lot of character variety, every single one of them is able to beat the game alone no harder than in previous games. If it was so focused in multiplayer, then multiplayer should be a must or be a really significant change compared to single player (say, making certain routes nearly impossible with some classes), but that's not what happens in the game.

Compared to that, fighting games are vastly different and more complex experiences in versus, since a human player has much more intelligence than an AI and lots of extra depth derive from that. That's not what happens with beat'em ups, or Mystara in particular. Yes, it's fun to play with others, and you have a few more reasons to do multiplayer than in previous games, but that doesn't mean multiplayer is the main way to play it.

As an aside, it's impossible to convince my friends that STGs are meant to be played in single player. If it has a two player option you have to play that way, they say. Something similar happens here with scrolling beat'em ups, I think.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

That's not what happens with beat'em ups, or Mystara in particular. Yes, it's fun to play with others, and you have a few more reasons to do multiplayer than in previous games, but that doesn't mean multiplayer is the main way to play it.

We'll have to agree to disagree there. I agree there's a lot of depth to playing 2D beat 'em ups in singleplayer, but I don't think it has to be considered the 'main' way to play if the game was developed and playtested with multiplayer in mind. But then perhaps that's why they're so fun to play singleplayer, because you have to approach challenges differently than you would with an extra person to help with crowd control?

As an aside, it's impossible to convince my friends that STGs are meant to be played in single player. If it has a two player option you have to play that way, they say. Something similar happens here with scrolling beat'em ups, I think.

There are some very good multiplayer shmups, but they're few and far between, and unfortunately a lot don't have team based scoring, so you're basically stuck playing for survival or dealing with a broken scoring system. At least you've found people who play shmups!

On the other hand, if you're playing with someone more serious about shmups some normally single player games offer some interesting incentives to try 'em out in coop, like Giga Wing (where you both need to 1CC to get the good ending, character dialogue/endings for each combination). That's kind of minor compared to Futari, though; it's got some added/altered dialogue when you're playing in 2P mode, but more importantly, you can abuse the scoring system in really creative ways in Maniac and God due to how the multiplier/cash-in system works.

[Leandro]

Capcom's D&D: SOM is perfectly doable in single player with any character, but it definitely was geared towards multiplayer, and for more reasons than just "managing crowd control":

- you can save your partners from so many dangers, from anywhere in the screen, with just well timed spellcasting or summon item use
- Chest's contents are decided by who's opening them, so there's a bigger pool of treasures in multiplay
- Of course, healing or boosting your friends, not just with the Cleric but with Rings, is a huge deal
- you can give money to other players in the shop; you can exchange body gear, weapons and items during gameplay.

Also, I finished this game alone more times than with people, but it never feels complete when I'm going throught it just by myself.
The game feels like a team adventure, and not a one man army like the majority of beat'em ups.

[Randorama]

Still no mention of Violent Storm? Such a shame.

Btw, do we have a similar thread for action/platform games, in the vein of Shinobi or Rolling Thunder?

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

Btw, do we have a similar thread for action/platform games, in the vein of Shinobi or Rolling Thunder?

I think the Ninja Gaiden thread is more or less that.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=45206

[BIL]

Yeah, was gonna say - if you don't feel like making a new thread Rando, Rolling Thunder & Shinobi are most definitely welcome there*. Thread might overall be a bit console-centric for your liking though. ;]

(*as are Makaimura, Holy Diver, and any other sidescrolling action platformers where you need to methodically place your projectiles)

[CMoon]

I love this genre. Slightly disappointed to see so few Battle Circuit mentions in this thread; it and Alien vs. Predator are definitely my favorites.

Good to see someone mention this. Battle Circuit is one of those lost gems. Never made it to the US; never got ported. When it was rediscovered by the emulation community, the beat-em-up genre was already a thing of the past. Definitely a great game.

[Obiwanshinobi]

In my experience playing a beat 'em up in the arcades was most likely to attract strangers asking if they can join. That's rather genre-defining for my money. By design or by custom, the genre was more social than most.
Possible reason - most enemies attacking the other guy are not attacking you, thus even inexperienced player is not completely useless for a veteran. I doubt situations like two ships occupying one safespot have an equivalent in beat 'em ups.
Hogging power ups - the most selfish thing that can by typically done - is not something most people would do on purpose whilst playing local co-op with a stranger (and in beat 'em ups it's easier to avoid than in some other genres I could mention)..

[Randorama]

General:

do you guys find Battle circuit difficult? I 1-CC'ed with some good amount of practice. I don't see myself clearing any of the other Capcom fighters except for The Punisher and Aliens vs Predator. In particular, Armored Warriors always made me feel like an inept. And then, the controversial question: what do you think about Double Dragon II? I like it, as it actually has a more dynamic fighting system than the first chapter, although not even one third of the charm.

@BIL and IlPalazzo: ah, I thought that I was missing something, cheers.

EDIT: I really like the original Ninja Gaiden, and you should too. Just played it again and, with some practice, it could be a game I could 1-CC at any time, dammit.

[undamned]

Metamorphic Force
Light Bringer / Dungeon Magic

YES!

Still no mention of Violent Storm? Such a shame.

Specineff introduced me to this! Pretty fun!

Some of my original arcade faves:

- Pretty Soldier Sailor Moon (Gazzelle, feat. Joker Jun neatness)
- Cowboys of Moo Mesa (Konami)
- Bucky O Hare (Konami)
- Captain America and the Avengers (Data East)
- Knuckle Bash (Toaplan)
- Gaiapolis (Konami, vertical beat'em up!)
- TMNT (Konami)
- TMNT: Turtles in Time (Konami)

And I'll mention this one last because the entire universe might implode at the mere mention of it:

Guardians of the Hood (Atari, think Pit Fighter as a scrolling beat'em up + more awesomeness than you can handle)

-ud

[Hagane]

do you guys find Battle circuit difficult? I 1-CC'ed with some good amount of practice. I don't see myself clearing any of the other Capcom fighters except for The Punisher and Aliens vs Predator. In particular, Armored Warriors always made me feel like an inept.

Battle Circuit is on the easy side, roughly on par with The Punisher, but I'd say AvsP is harder than both. Mystara is not that hard either, particularly with the Magic User, who only requires a decent magic distribution strategy for the bosses and keeping regular enemies away with his fast, long ranged regular attack. The Dwarf and Fighter are rather straightforward too, if you prefer melee characters.

And yes, Armored Warriors is definitely the hardest Capcom belt scroller, but I'd say that's mostly due to how unforgiving it is (high damage and few health recovery items).

[BIL]

Guardians of the Hood (Atari, think Pit Fighter as a scrolling beat'em up + more awesomeness than you can handle)

So bad it's God. Praise be to Lord BBH

[BareKnuckleRoo]

General:

do you guys find Battle circuit difficult? I 1-CC'ed with some good amount of practice.

The last couple of bosses are brutally nasty. I think it's one of those games where you're given a lot of tools at your disposal, but you really need to know what works where because you'll get messed up in only a few hits. It's not like beat 'em ups where your moveset is more limited and more about just positioning or learning enemy AI. You really have to know what moves for each character work where. But there's clearly some moves that just rip through even the bosses (Green for instance gets massive damage from using his slam throw when hitting one enemy into another) and the powerup abilities add an extra layer of help that you wouldn't normally get.

Metamorphic Force (JP ver) is way easier in my opinion. Your attacks are fast and have crazy range, so you can mostly poke your way to victory. It really never reaches anything like Battle Circuit's difficulty, which seriously gets ramped up later on. Maybe it's not too surprising though, are Konami beat 'em ups usually considered easier than Capcom's offerings? I'm not really familiar with what arcade beat 'em up makers tend to be considered the toughest.

Isn't Armored Warriors supposed to be one of the toughest arcade beat 'em ups to 1CC?

[Randorama]

Ok, I was about to throw the PC out of the window, after playing []Armored Warriors[/i]. I completely agree, Hagane: the level of unforgiveness borders on the irrational, as it seems that virtually any mistake at any point may cost you a life. I wonder who playtested this, back in the day...

Also, I actually wanted to say: AVP is not hard, although the final boss is a bit tricky (but doable). I have the same opinion on Battle Circuit, Roo, as I think that the game only gets difficult from Zipangu onwards (or whatever the samurai boss is called). I recall that both him and the last boss require a specific use of one-two attacks, everything else will simply not work.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Figures. Zipang was where I think I got stuck last time I was playing Battle Circuit. :'(

[undamned]

Guardians of the Hood (Atari, think Pit Fighter as a scrolling beat'em up + more awesomeness than you can handle)

So bad it's God. Praise be to Lord BBH

Fun article

I actually picked up my PCB (yes, I proudly own this game) because it was cheap way back when I first started collecting. 8 1/2 and I had some laughs playing it when he came out to one of the Arizona shmup meets (this game was not part of the meet).
-ud

[Hagane]

Ok, I was about to throw the PC out of the window, after playing []Armored Warriors[/i]. I completely agree, Hagane: the level of unforgiveness borders on the irrational, as it seems that virtually any mistake at any point may cost you a life. I wonder who playtested this, back in the day...

The game is very unforgiving yes, usually it takes three hits at most to die, but the challenge itself is not so much harder than other games... you just have much less room for error. With the proper part combinations you can make things more manageable, particularly after you get the Turbo Jet legs and the Shield arm. You can use those to safely attack from a distance. Where are you stuck at?

There's a Blodia no damage run at Replay Burner's youtube channel with extensive abuse of those two parts (and a hilarious use of item get invincibility at a couple of bosses, too)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVRrF3h7GnM