GD: DOJ system and strat

Plasmo · Post by **Plasmo** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:24 pm

@third_strike
That's the right one!

@Prom
I'd highly suggest switching either to B-E or A-E. Playing with B-L is like playing with C-S in DDP...

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:44 pm

Plasmo wrote:@Prom
I'd highly suggest switching either to B-E or A-E. Playing with B-L is like playing with C-S in DDP...

What do you mean ? C-S is perfectly fine for scoring and surviving in DDP!
I did switch to B-E though because I think B-L's firepower might not be enough in second loop. Not that I really plan to play until I can score in second loop but you never know.

LtC · Post by **LtC** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 2:23 pm

B-L is more like playing C-L in DDP. You die - you have your shot crippled.

Plasmo · Post by **Plasmo** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 2:29 pm

Oh whoops of course I meant C-L!!
C-S of course is awesome!

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 2:30 pm

oh yeah ok that makes sense
It's too bad the options look so ugly when you use "exy" ;] I like the rotating options a lot more haha.

RGC · Post by **RGC** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:51 pm

Well, spent 45 mins repeating the first 35 seconds of stage 1. That's about as much as I could bear.

Using A-E: I take out the big gun turret, move to the right, collect bee/destroy 4 tanks, move to the left, destroy one tank, get bee/destroy other tank; big ships descend - I take out the first, second, chain drops. It happens like this in 70% runs. A few times I kept the chain going, and after that it doesn't seem difficult to hang onto (just a case of learning the basic ship order). But I fail to see what I'm doing differently to keep it going immediately after the turret. Should I try Malik's approach, and get the bee to the right before destroying the turret? If I can get past this annoyance, I'm sure I could enjoy the game.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:18 pm

take 1 bee to the right before killing the turret. as it blows up, move left and C shot some tanks, and collect the other bee. regarding the chain dropping: it's a question of faith. without having a vid in front of me, i'm sure what it will be is that you are waiting for each ship to explode before fully committing to the next one.

i think the bit that you're talking about is when you're moving from left to right. and what you need to do is hold the laser, *and* hold the direction, and the ship will blow up just before your laser stops firing at it. but even if it doesn't, your laser will still just connect with the next ship as it comes down. if you've got the order right in your head (until a hyper appears), it's just a case of muscle memory.

alternatively, you can try collecting both bees *before* killing the turret, HFD style

y'know, you should come down to glos one day and play on my pcb. a couple of beers will get you a free tutorial, if you're ever in my neck of the woods

p.s. i hope this isn't what you spent valentine's day doing

RGC · Post by **RGC** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:50 pm

Like all Cave fans, I enjoy a little self-torture. I'm not about to let this beast get the better of me just yet. I'll return for more pain tomorrow and try out the technique you advised.

Not sure about making it to Gloucester (aren't muders commonplace there?:D), but I've booked my ticket for the IC09 show at Northampton in July. You going to that?

jpj wrote:p.s. i hope this isn't what you spent valentine's day doing

Only 45 minutes of it. I spent the rest bitchin and being cynical.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:22 pm

depends on work and what not sadly

RGC · Post by **RGC** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:17 pm

I'm a lot more consistent with the turret now, though still dropping the chain around 50% time after collecting the next bee!.

After the first hyper it's plain sailing - just a few more runs and I'll be there.

TLB · Post by **TLB** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:31 pm

I can't remember whether I've seen anything regarding a solution to Stage 1 with no hypers, but here's mine:

Kill the spinny dude, pick up 2nd bee, blah blah blah, first ship appears, shoot it. Depending on whether you've revealed all of the little stars near the top (they also count toward your chain! The shooting part, I mean), you may either smash up the next ship or buy yourself a little breathing room by drawing out this part and slowly revealing the stars. 'Kay, stars revealed, I then kill ships all the way to the right of the screen, blow up a tank that comes out into your laser (you might not even notice it unless you're paying attention), then quickly-re-laser to reveal the bee, then shoot ships back to the left side, where, as it says in the first post, a good method is to tap C (or circle, for poor kids like me =P) as slowly as you can on the tanks. As the tanks die, take it on right again, BUT instead of laze-razing through that entire column of tanks, keep tapping C/ircle until you're all the way to the right again! This buys you plenty of time to collect the bee, shoot some ships, blow some tanks, etc. and keep your chain! I figured this out when I gave my 360 a break a few days ago (and then went and played Death Label yesterday =P), and after that, I've only worked out a few more seconds. I think my highest non-hyper chain there is 301 (447 with hyper).

Chances are, that huge paragraph isn't very clear and has already been discussed, but I'm bored and trying to kill my headache =P

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:45 pm

nice one RGC

that's easily the toughest part of the level to learn

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:30 pm

yes RGC like metallica I think your problem is all about the little stars behind the big tower. You need to hit them after the first of the medium sized ships that descend after the turret dies, otherwise your chain will break after the second ship.

I'm learning the stage 4 chain, the diagonal platforms part is pretty hard. Also I can't do the second part of stage 3 consistently, there is one point where I either die too often if I try to chain or I break the chain too often if I do it more loosely. I guess it doesn't really matter anyway since I'm not using a strategy where I use hypers to chain the whole stage together, but as a result I do waste hyper potential because I don't get the last bees with 200+hits. Any of you guys can do it consistently with type B ?

Is stage 5 sort of easy to chain ? Most of it looks pretty straightforward in the videos. But DDP taught me that impression shouldn't be trusted -_-;;

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:55 pm

my advice would be to learn stages 1 and 2 first (obviously), then stage 3, then stage 5, and then lastly stage 4 - as it is the toughest to chain by far. in fact, if you check the ps2 dvd superplay, or the type B superplay on the game disc, or even ISO's black label run, none of those guys chain stage 4 from start to finish (or not on both loops). very tough. HFD obviously does do it, but he's a freak

...actually, his 1-4 technique on the diagonal platforms is quite something. like i said before, first time i watched it i thought it must've been 2-4 because he wasn't even using a hyper

but no

chaining in and out of the 1up turret is also a bitch

regarding stage 3, i've never done it that way. i'm guessing you are doing it hyperless because that's how they do it on the superplays that you're watching...? it can be beneficial, but it relies on three things: being able to chain the second half of stage 3 with no hypers (difficult); not dying on the stage 3 boss (if you aren't using hypers on him, the only tough bit is his last pattern, but you could even hyper through those bullets at the last couple of seconds); and being able to chain all of stage 4 . otherwise you'll just have a crappy score for stage 3, and maybe a 900 hit chain before the diagonal platforms, which is maybe 40 mill or so (?).

you should really check out HFD's plays. obviously it is black label, but i think it would really help

he actually chains *all* of stage 3 in one chain by a careful hyper used before the midboss. i don't know if this can be done on white label (none of us have successfully done it, although i only tried a couple of times), but i don't see any reason why it wouldn't.

i'm still having trouble with stage 5

mainly, not losing the chain after the midboss (i think there's an element of luck to this, in where enemies appear from after he dies), which is kinda about making sure you have a hyper ready and activated before he dies, and finishing him off when he's towards the left of the screen, your laser held down, and ship about half-way up the screen. [when he appears on screen, you can kind of control him, and which direction he will start moving in by positioning yourself accordingly - you want him to move to the right after his first pattern]. and then not getting trapped in the beehive section. personally, i can do stages 1, 2, 3 all day long; but 5 is slightly hit and miss. try practicing it at a high rank as well (which i never did

)

also, you got a pm

LtC · Post by **LtC** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:18 pm

Do people here use rapid fire button when they play this game or just the laser button and tap for rapid fire? I've never really thought about it before and I've always used just 1 button for fire, would it actually be better/more accurate to use 2 buttons?

captpain · Post by **captpain** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:19 am

LtC wrote:Do people here use rapid fire button when they play this game or just the laser button and tap for rapid fire? I've never really thought about it before and I've always used just 1 button for fire, would it actually be better/more accurate to use 2 buttons?

I'm no high-scorer, but I do know that it's easier to use one button for auto-shot and a separate button for laser. You can quickly alternate between shot and laser when you are already doing one or the other.

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:36 am

ltc : in this particular game it's better to use autoshot because it's the only way to fire your shot for a very short time, which is helpful when trying to destroy popcorn stuff slowly to keep your chain. I think it also helps to get your laser activated faster but I'm not sure.

In Guwange it's even more important.

But in DDP it doesn't matter at all (doesn't help because it doesn't change anything in the gameplay. I don't use autofire in DDP myself).

jpj : thx for the info~!

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:56 am

Auto-fire is only good in DDP if you die in the first loop, which means that ultimately it really doesn't matter =)

I haven't messed with it at all in DOJ, I guess I probably should from the sounds of things.

captpain · Post by **captpain** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:16 am

PROMETHEUS wrote: But in DDP it doesn't matter at all (doesn't help because it doesn't change anything in the gameplay. I don't use autofire in DDP myself).!

Wow, really? You've played soooo many runs, I would expect your hand to have fallen off by now.

Out of curiosity, do you do directions left hand, buttons right, or directions right, buttons left?

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:29 am

directions left hand, buttons right ye

you don't really have to tap the shot button fast at all in DDP. Compared to mushi it's nothing, and I'm sure many japanese players played countless mushi runs without rapid fire.

LtC · Post by **LtC** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:22 pm

Damn you guys I was secretly hoping that 1 button would be much better even though I knew it wasn't :((
And I suppose it doesn't make much difference on which hand you're using directions and which buttons as long as you stick with keyboard. Personally I've always had directions on the right hand just because I started that way... and please don't tell me it's actually better if you have directions on left hand.

I guess I shouldn't play this for a couple days now and try with 2 button fire system later and see how it works out.

I always wondered how people complained about having to tap the button so much and how they thought they had to tap it like no tomorrow, personally it comes as natural as breathing to me and never tires out my finger. I performed a simple test to see how much I actually tap the button when I normally play... more than I expected: 54 times during 10 seconds (Left middle finger). Anyone else tested that?

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:34 pm

LtC wrote:Personally I've always had directions on the right hand just because I started that way... and please don't tell me it's actually better if you have directions on left hand.

well I guess you'll just suck even more than I do when you have to play on a stick or pad at some meeting :p

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:32 pm

hot damn ... just watching HFD's type B black label run again

he does stages 1 and 2 differently to the type A replay. stage 1, only 1 hyper, 28 mill. stage 2, a 2900 hit chain

finishes the stage on 150+ mill. chaining all of stage 3 in one chain nets him 300+ mill by the end of the stage. he actually doesn't chain all of stage 4 (see what i mean!). gets 100 mill with a 1500+ hit chain before losing it at the 1up turret, finishing the stage on 440 mill. gets a 3700 hit chain on stage 5, finishing the level on 940+ mill

A_Civilian · Post by **A_Civilian** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:52 pm

Seems that a no-hyper full chain on the first stage gets five hypers for the second (destroying the boss properly), and out of 28 million, I'd lose out on only 7 million points (about 560/820 hit chain).

Potential point value higher or lower than hypering through the level and boss and ending the stage with 2/3 hypers ready for the next? (How Stage 2 will be fully chained after the the opening hyper expiration is irrelevant to this question, I'm just asking about the first bit of the second stage.)

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:00 am

I hate how this game screws your chaining plans for the next level when you make a mistake somewhere because the hyper gauge isn't like you want to be anymore... This is stupid.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:54 pm

you need to learn to improvise is all i can say

CLA used to tell me DOJ is all about having a plan B ... and C and D

civilian: scores go up exponentially with your chain (or rather your chain * enemy base value). for example, a 800 hit chain on stage 1 is about 25 mill. but HFD starts stage 2 (type B) with 5 hypers, however after 1000 hits he only accumulates 10 million by that point (because the base value of enemies in the first half of stage 2 is not so high). however, iirc, that way is slightly more beneficial, but you will have higher rank (or more dramatic rank increase) from unleashing 5 at once

LtC · Post by **LtC** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:04 pm

How is it exactly calculated? Is it the same way as DonPachi where it goes:
First Enemy value x Highest hit # in chain + Second Enemy value x Highest hit#-1 in chain + .....+ Last Enemy value x 1?

And how does it give points from just holding your laser at something?

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:09 pm

i really couldn't tell you, although i'm sure it's in the BL booklet if i dug it out. one of the reasons why stage 5 is so high scoring is because all the large turrets/mid-bosses have a high base value (and there are so many of them!)

Plasmo · Post by **Plasmo** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:18 pm

LtC wrote:How is it exactly calculated?

Page 4 of this topic wrote:Situation:
You chain 3 enemies. The first one is worth 100, the second 300 and the third 500 points. The second enemy has 2 hitpoints. (you therefore get +1 to your chain because you are using the laser)

No Hyper – 4HIT

1HIT first enemy - base value 100 -> [0] + 100 = 100
2HIT second enemy – base value 300 -> [100] + 300 = 400
3HIT laser combo -> [100 + 300] + 10 = 410
4HIT third enemy – base value 500 -> [100 + 300 + 10] + 500 = 910
total =1820

One Hyper - 7HIT

1HIT first enemy - base value 100 -> [0] + 100 = 100
2HIT hyper bonus -> ([100] / 10) = 10
3HIT second enemy – base value 300 -> [100] + 300 = 400
4HIT hyper bonus -> ([100 + 300] / 10) = 40
5HIT laser combo -> [100 + 300] + 20 = 420
6HIT third enemy – base value 500 -> [100 + 300 + 20] + 500 = 920
7HIT hyper bonus -> ([100 + 300 + 20 + 500] / 10) = 90
total =1980

Five Hyper – 19HIT

1HIT first enemy - base value 100 -> [0] + 100 = 100
2HIT hyper bonus -> ([100] /10) = 10
3HIT hyper bonus -> ([100] /10) = 10
4HIT hyper bonus -> ([100] /10) = 10
5HIT hyper bonus -> ([100] /10) = 10
6HIT hyper bonus -> ([100] /10) = 10
7HIT second enemy – base value 300 -> [100] + 300 = 400
8HIT hyper bonus -> ([100 + 300] / 10) = 40
9HIT hyper bonus -> ([100 + 300] / 10) = 40
10HIT hyper bonus -> ([100 + 300] / 10) = 40
11HIT hyper bonus -> ([100 + 300] / 10) = 40
12HIT hyper bonus -> ([100 + 300] / 10) = 40
13HIT laser combo -> [100 + 300] + 20 = 420
14HIT third enemy – base value 500 -> [100 + 300 + 20] + 500 = 920
15HIT hyper bonus -> ([100 + 300 + 20 + 500] / 10) = 90
16HIT hyper bonus -> ([100 + 300 + 20 + 500] / 10) = 90
17HIT hyper bonus -> ([100 + 300 + 20 + 500] / 10) = 90
18HIT hyper bonus -> ([100 + 300 + 20 + 500] / 10) = 90
19HIT hyper bonus -> ([100 + 300 + 20 + 500] / 10) = 90
total =2540

Taken from the Black Label Superplay DVD booklet.

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:41 am

jpj wrote:you need to learn to improvise is all i can say :D

CLA used to tell me DOJ is all about having a plan B ... and C and D :lol:

Yes and I hate that, it's always really tedious to learn a precise plan in all STGs to have any fun with them, but this particular game makes it even worse because you have to learn more than 1 plan for some parts. This contrasts with Futari which allows you to have nearly no plan at all and still score okay and have fun, and at the same time isn't easy once you have a good plan set up. Not in ultra though... But anyway, DOJ really has all the flaws I hate that you find in some Cave STGs, it's like Dodonpachi in many ways.

I kind of not like it so much!^^