BitBlitz: 15k RGB -> VGA

[opt2not]

I'd rather sell an awesome product to a smaller group of users, then sell an average product to a larger group of people. The more extra features I try to incorporate, the less time and energy to dedicate to the board's core functionality.

This agrees with me.
I admire your work ethic, and assurance to quality Crafty. Keep on rockin'.

[SNES_is_the_Best]

I'd rather sell an awesome product to a smaller group of users, then sell an average product to a larger group of people. The more extra features I try to incorporate, the less time and energy to dedicate to the board's core functionality.

Just this 1 additional feature won't make your product average. And it shouldn't be hard to implement, as I tested my SNES on a Plasma TV via S-Video and the Plasma switches instantly without even the slightest delay. If a cheap TV processor can do it with no problem, then I'm pretty sure your device can without becoming an average product.

[Crafty+Mech]

I'd rather sell an awesome product to a smaller group of users, then sell an average product to a larger group of people. The more extra features I try to incorporate, the less time and energy to dedicate to the board's core functionality.

Just this 1 additional feature won't make your product average. And it shouldn't be hard to implement, as I tested my SNES on a Plasma TV via S-Video and the Plasma switches instantly without even the slightest delay. If a cheap TV processor can do it with no problem, then I'm pretty sure your device can without becoming an average product.

I think you missed the point of what I was trying to say. You are not the only one who has asked for marginal features, and my response addressed these requests with respect to the core goals I have for the project.

[SNES_is_the_Best]

I'd rather sell an awesome product to a smaller group of users, then sell an average product to a larger group of people. The more extra features I try to incorporate, the less time and energy to dedicate to the board's core functionality.

Just this 1 additional feature won't make your product average. And it shouldn't be hard to implement, as I tested my SNES on a Plasma TV via S-Video and the Plasma switches instantly without even the slightest delay. If a cheap TV processor can do it with no problem, then I'm pretty sure your device can without becoming an average product.

I think you missed the point of what I was trying to say. You are not the only one who has asked for marginal features, and my response addressed these requests with respect to the core goals I have for the project.

No I didn't miss the point. All I was wishing for was full compatibility with all 240p games (many of which switch to 480i). No other additional features would be needed. Just compatibility, and boom, its perfect, otherwise its only compatible with "most" 240p games, instead of "all". It really isn't asking much. But I'm still thankful that your willing to tell everyone upfront that some 240p games are unplayable on it.

[Crafty+Mech]

No I didn't miss the point. All I was wishing for was full compatibility with all 240p games (many of which switch to 480i). No other additional features would be needed. Just compatibility, and boom, its perfect, otherwise its only compatible with "most" 240p games, instead of "all". It really isn't asking much. But I'm still thankful that your willing to tell everyone upfront that some 240p games are unplayable on it.

Thanks for the bold letters and underlines, it really helps me understand what you are saying.

Being argumentative isn't an effective strategy to persuade me.

[opt2not]

I think you missed the point of what I was trying to say. You are not the only one who has asked for marginal features, and my response addressed these requests with respect to the core goals I have for the project.

Here, this might help him.

[SNES_is_the_Best]

Thanks for the bold letters and underlines, it really helps me understand what you are saying.

Being argumentative isn't an effective strategy to persuade me.

Not my intentions. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't being misunderstood (its very easy to be misunderstood on the internet)

Here, this might help him.

opt2not, you've made it clear that compatibility with all 240p games is not important to you. We "get it". But to others, its very important. But seriously, there's no need to suck up to Crafty+Mech. We are all adults (?) here, and asking for full 240p compatibility is not unreasonable and should not be frowned upon by you or anyone else.

Nevertheless, Crafty+Mech has said "No". So lets move on to discuss something else.

[Crafty+Mech]

opt2not, You've made it clear that compatibility with all 240p games is not important to you. We "get it". But to others, its very important. But seriously, there's no need to suck up to the guy. We are all adults (?) here, and asking for full 240p compatibility is not unreasonable and should not be frowned upon by you or anyone else.

You've said what you wanted to say Snes_is_best, and you know my position. So please leave this discussion, so I can get it back on track to project status updates.

[opt2not]

opt2not, You've made it clear that compatibility with all 240p games is not important to you. We "get it". But to others, its very important.

I never said anything like that. My reactions were from finding it hilarious that you're continuously harassing Crafty to support something he said he doesn't want to support.
More features the better, of course. But it's his project, and if he doesn't want to do it then that's that.

But seriously, there's no need to suck up to the guy. We are all adults (?) here, and asking for full 240p compatibility is not unreasonable and should not be frowned upon by you or anyone else.

Nevertheless, Crafty+Mech has said "No". So lets move on to discuss something else.

I've worked with enough middle-managers to know that sucking up is in fact an adult thing to do.
And yes, I do need to suck up to Crafty, 'cause he's contributing great things to the arcade community, and I'm sure others along with myself would like to see him continue to do so. Also, I think he's good peeps.

[StarCreator]

For what it's worth, I recall Seiken Densetsu 3 doing a switch away from 240p too, just to pop up messages after battles. Seiken Densetsu 2 (Secret of Mana) does it for menus but not in gameplay.

[ZellSF]

Seiken Densetsu III's character select screen is the only 480i I've seen in a 240p game outside of N64 titles (where it's a bit more common).

And that's not particularly a game I need the RetroPix for. Primary reason I want the RetroPix is less lag than full scalers.

[matrigs]

I'm curious if there could be just a cheap, quick and dirty solution for 480i content.

What about sticking an Extron RGB interface before it? I think i read somewhere that professional scalers see the output of the Extron still as 480i and handle it as such. But a scaler that would have only 240p capabilities might not care i guess?

[BitFaced]

I'm curious if there could be just a cheap, quick and dirty solution for 480i content.

What about sticking an Extron RGB interface before it? I think i read somewhere that professional scalers see the output of the Extron still as 480i and handle it as such. But a scaler that would have only 240p capabilities might not care i guess?

If you're talking about 480i-240p then you may have flickering lines depending on which game (games made for 240p and games that are not).

[matrigs]

Fair enough. It would still make the game playable. Because as i understand, the Retropix will just not process 480i at all right?

[Crafty+Mech]

If you input 480i it should look like 240p to the RetroPix, and as Bitfaced mentioned that will induce some flickering because the two fields are not handled properly in relation to one another. So definitely not optimal, but in theory it should work and be adequate for brief periods (menus, etc.). I need to run some tests and see what happens, and no guarantees it would work for every case.

[matrigs]

If you input 480i it should look like 240p to the RetroPix, and as Bitfaced mentioned that will induce some flickering because the two fields are not handled properly in relation to one another. So definitely not optimal, but in theory it should work and be adequate for brief periods (menus, etc.). I need to run some tests and see what happens, and no guarantees it would work for every case.

I understand this - but what if you use an Extron RGB before? You are aware of these, right?

[Crafty+Mech]

I'm not sure what the difference would be unless the Extron can convert 480i to 240p (versus just putting the 480i directly into the Retro). If you're thinking about the cheapie units (~$30), they don't appear to do any processing, just sync and level adjustment.

[Fudoh]

Indeed, the Extron RGB interfaces (from $20 on ebay) remove the half line offset present on the first row of video, which tells the the display that it's interlaced instead of progressive - thus converting 480i into 240p. The interesting bit though is that the Extrons only work on analogue CRTs. If you try to use them before a video processor or a LCD it won't change anything. I never looked into why they behave this way, but if you want to check it out, get one - they're really cheap.

[Crafty+Mech]

Indeed, the Extron RGB interfaces (from $20 on ebay) remove the half line offset present on the first row of video, which tells the the display that it's interlaced instead of progressive - thus converting 480i into 240p. The interesting bit though is that the Extrons only work on analogue CRTs. If you try to use them before a video processor or a LCD it won't change anything. I never looked into why they behave this way, but if you want to check it out, get one - they're really cheap.

Very interesting, I might have to pick one up just to play around with.

[matrigs]

Haha, i had just finished writing my post in which i wanted to ask if you had the time to try those Extrons with commercial scalers.

Actually - did the scalers show 240p input, or still 480i?

[Fudoh]

actually still 480i. Tried a lot: XRGB2/3/Mini and various DVDOs and Faroudja based ones.

[StarCreator]

Thinking about this - how is the scanlines support on this working? Is it still buffering the fields, or is it simply inserting a blank field in between each? Wouldn't an easy, if somewhat ugly solution be to simply blank out the odd or even fields (thus sacrificing half the image for an image without flicker)?

[Fudoh]

in thise case you'd lose half your framerate AND you'd still have to go from 15 to 31khz.

[BitFaced]

If I'm getting it anyway I might as well try out the Game Boy Player on it; better idea than getting a Sync Strike and Extron RGB that won't work on an LCD. Might be flickery/crappy but worth an attempt visually wise as I'd have the components necessary at hand.

[Xyga]

I don't get it well but looks like on 480i the RetroPix will behave like the old XRGBs do.

- Please correct me if I'm wrong -

But if I'm right so why the complaints ?
Do people have any idea how great this is already ?

[Fudoh]

The XRGBs shift the even fields by one or two lines to minimize flicker. Without this option the flicker will be stronger (like the XPC-4 if you want a comparison to another processor).

[Xyga]

I see now, thanks.

[alamone]

Just as an aside, it seems the 480i switching has been cast as a console problem, but it happens on some arcade boards as well, mostly 90s era games.
Notable examples are the title screen in G-Darius (when the Darius logo is undulating around) and the intro / character select in Cotton Boomerang (assuming STV the same as the Saturn version).
With G-Darius (ver. 2) on my XRGB-2, the screen blacks out momentarily while it resyncs. I assume on the XRGB-mini there's the usual long resync delay.

[Fudoh]

One of the reasons why the Mini takes so long is because the deinterlacing is passed from the FPGA (for 240p) to the Marvell processor (for 480i). The XRGB-2 is considerably faster as it just realigns the line offset to reduce the flicker, but doesn't have to change processors.

[opt2not]

I wonder if I can stuff this into an RGB modded NES...