Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[Obiwanshinobi]

Graphically Vampire Killer looks most impressive to me (be it artistically or technically). That air of exclusive seems to be all but lost in this day and age.

Wonder Boy III: The Dragon's Trap on GenPlus GX actually says "Monster World II" on the title screen. The ROM is labelled "(USA, Europe)" and the emulator is set to auto-detect region (NTSC signal, 60 Hz update). So maybe it defaults to Japanese when the ROM's multi-region?

[BIL]

Aye, Vampire Killer, Contra Hard Corps and Rocket Knight all feel MD-bespoke (MEGADRIVERS CUSTOM) much like Gunstar, Alien Soldier and Dynamite Headdy. They wrangle a sharp vibrancy out of the limited onscreen colour, while maintaining a blistering rate of sprite and background layer-shifting. Stuff like Actraiser II and Demon's Blazon are more beautiful in stills but lack that pyrotechnic fury in motion (incidentally, SFC Sparkster comes closest in my experience).

As MD performance pieces I think they surpass even first-party highlights like Super Shinobi II and Ristar.

[Squire Grooktook]

Shirked my homework duties for a bit to credit feed through Ninja Gaiden three times. I think I'm definitely going to go for the 1cc and eventually 1lc when I have more freetime. Did very good against Jaquio too, managed to clear all 3 forms fairly efficiently on the second and third run through.

I think my main problem area right now is stage 5, and stage 6-2. 6-3 feels oddly less lethal, although it still has its share of instant death situations.

Also briefly played Ninja Spirits again. That floaty jump and near bullet hell action feels like nothing else on the side scrolling front. In some ways it feels like almost the opposite of Ninja Gaiden, with its floaty jump, methodical move speed, and emphasis on projectiles and long range blasting over close quarters melee speeding.

Also moon jumping through the tree's on stage 2 to make it to the top of the stage and escape a panic situation = thrilling as hell.

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

^^^ You could go with Bloodlines next maybe. Finish getting a taste for the franchise, then go onto the super brilliant and devilishly hard Akumajo Dracula x68. That one will last you a long time, but I guarantee it'll never stop being fun.

I've already bought Chronicles, and I'm almost definitely going to buy CV3 (VC, so the US version). I want to play Bloodlines too. I have to admit, I'm having trouble deciding which one to go with next - I want to play Chronicles the most, but I may play it last (out of those three) since my expectations for it are the highest. I guess there's really no reason I couldn't play them simultaneously.

I'm still playing Rondo too, and I actually didn't know Carmilla was in the game until I found her after having beaten 2 last night - which made for a great surprise. I do think I probably like the original more than Rondo in the end though. Rondo is fantastic - godlike aesthetics, really cool bosses (especially from the dullahan on), and as dojo said, it's great mechanically too - but I think I prefer the heavier tactical emphasis and higher difficulty in the first game. I'm actually going for a 1cc of that game right now as well (first a dirty run, then afterwards a more legit run without using holy water on the last few bosses).

[Squire Grooktook]

- but I think I prefer the heavier tactical emphasis and higher difficulty in the first game.

Heheh, you're going to love Chronicles then.

Bloodlines is a bit closer to Rondo mechanically I think. It's similarly below arcade difficulty, but it's even more aggressive, and very satisfyingly so. I find the emphasis on speed and speed killing gives the game a depth and long term appeal missing from the other non-x68 games. Constantly improving your time, efficiency, and grace, is incredibly fun.

[Austin]

Post of the year right here, man. This *@&# is pure gold!!

Only real reason to play II these days, other than completism, is so you'll get the references in later games. I hadn't thought about it before, but the Rondo/Nocturne team seemed especially keen on ensuring II got as much recognition as its FC companions (ol' town in flames, Carmilla's weeping mask, overly chatty ferryman, bouncy diamond subweapon and of course Dracula's collectible, stat-boosting remains).

I still thoroughly enjoy Part II. It's not difficult like the others but it fills a non-linear niche that few other NES titles do for me. I never had a problem with it back in the day (in particular, I think I first completed it when I was 8 or so), but I did have friends that knew what to do guiding me throughout the way. I can still recommend it today, but suggest having a walkthrough alongside.

[dojo_b]

Shirked my homework duties for a bit to credit feed through Ninja Gaiden three times. [...]
I think my main problem area right now is stage 5, and stage 6-2. 6-3 feels oddly less lethal, although it still has its share of instant death situations.

Yeah, Act 5's challenge seems underrated next to 6, probably due to lack of a serious boss. 6-3 has several intense scenarios, but they can all be thoroughly mastered. The initial half of the second large room is one that should be extremely deadly w/o resorting to spin-slash, but somehow an intuitive action sequence just clicked for me early on. (That's the best kind of challenge for me---one where you can develop a knack, but it's too subtle to just write out an algorithm for anyone to follow. Jacquio himself has that feel as well.)

6-2 is mostly tractable as well, I find that it's just very difficult to get a perfect handle on the flying ninjas. In particular, there is this one really nasty shuriken (I think BIL has mentioned and knows exactly which one I mean) that is apt to clip you low on the last stretch of ninja hell. I've meant to do some careful research about it but not yet.

[BIL]

I find NG's Act V the game's most enjoyable. Sudden death is nearer than in the previous four, but it's still got that freewheeling pace and stage design I love. Act VI throws in a few real chokepoints that dominate proceedings (mostly in 6-2, which is definitely tougher than 6-3's finale! One treacherous jump versus three, and the latter are more heavily guarded).

It's also pretty satisfying aesthetically and narratively, something I always value in my action games - propelling the arc started by IV's botched infiltration. Escaping 5-1's dungeon to see the previous act's vast jungle from 5-2's mountainside, scaling the crumbling temple in 5-3 as night falls, then finally reaching its summit for Act VI's second, much deadlier attempt at the altar. Not handily sneaking up through a gap in the foundation this time, but rushing the heavily secured front gates after a grueling climb back up.

Act VI's naturally a bit recycled-feeling, being locales you've seen before, but I love the consistency it derives from that.

[Squire Grooktook]

Heheh, got my first encounter with the Kerberos clone glitch. Making progress.

Btw, is Ninja Spirit a somewhat random game? I love the chaos of it, and it seems like a lot of the zakos spawn on irregular timings.

[BIL]

AFAIK, in both AC and PCE the bigger enemies (like st1's staff monks, st3's giant katana zombies and st4's samurai) and are set spawns while zako ninja, riflemen, wolves etc are random. Ex_Mosquito's probably the guy to ask though, he friggin no-missed the AC version. Just the thought makes me a bit uneasy, what a nightmarishly intense game.

BTW, to echo Ed, did you ever find about Chronicles Original vs X68k default difficulty? I know you said it's a bit tricky to nail down exactly what the latter's defaults are with hacked ROMs about, haha. I figure SuperDeadite would know if anyone.

Rondo and XX bosses' dying attacks can't actually kill you, if anyone was wondering. I was 99% sure of this in the former and confirmed it in XX this evening (though knowing XX, I wouldn't be surprised if you could somehow get it to kill you). Finished XX st5' with literally zero HP bonus, after letting a rapidly decomposing Serpent clock me. Rondo's lead programmer talked a bit about them here (credit to blackoak and GSK).

Of course even if they don't kill you, they will screw you out of both games' no-damage 1UP bonus. ;3 So backflipping over Minotaur's dying shoryuken is always good fun (wait for the second hoof stamp).

[Domino]

Is it me or both Contra and Super Contra for the FC are pretty easy once you figure out the AI and enemy placements? In one sitting I was able to 1CC both Contra and Super Contra. Even the loops of both games weren't hard at all.

[Squire Grooktook]

Just scored a 1cc of Ninja Gaiden! Can't wait to have some free time to start on the 1lc.

AFAIK, in both AC and PCE the bigger enemies (like st1's staff monks, st3's giant katana zombies and st4's samurai) and are set spawns while zako ninja, riflemen, wolves etc are random.

Perfect

Also, is it worth using weapons other than the chain? I notice Ex_Mosquito uses it exclusively in his run, but I do like switching them up for different situations. Are the other weapons relevant, or is it pretty much a one gun show?

BTW, to echo Ed, did you ever find about Chronicles Original vs X68k default difficulty? I know you said it's a bit tricky to nail down exactly what the latter's defaults are with hacked ROMs about, haha. I figure SuperDeadite would know if anyone.

I pm'd SuperDeadite a while back. He said he was going to look into it, but apparently hasn't had a chance yet. I can wait though.

Is it me or both Contra and Super Contra for the FC are pretty easy once you figure out the AI and enemy placements? In one sitting I was about to 1CC both Contra and Super Contra. Even the loops of both games weren't hard at all.

Neither games are particularly difficult. They practically throw extends at you, and it never gets too brutal, even if you don't know the stage layouts.

That being said, the infinite randomly spawning runners make it so that so you'll have some tight reflex dodges every time. Even if it's not a difficult clear for a veteran player, it's still very engaging and has no shortage of exciting moments each time.

Although, most of the above is about Contra. Super C's flat level design makes it a fair bit less interesting and intense in my opinion.

[Volteccer_Jack]

Is it me or both Contra and Super Contra for the FC are pretty easy once you figure out the AI and enemy placements? In one sitting I was about to 1CC both Contra and Super Contra. Even the loops of both games weren't hard at all.

None of the old school Contras are particularly difficult on default settings. The reputation the series got is a bit baffling to me. I beat Contra with no items my second day playing it

[trap15]

Just goes to show how scrubby the average player was, even back in mah day.

[BIL]

FC Super Contra doesn't actually loop up, AFAIK - merely repeats the first ad infinitum. I'm pretty sure its runner spawn rate is maxed from the beginning, but it makes little difference. Where the original's runners play off the intensive platforming and surprise shots, Super Contra leaves its stranded in flatter stages with gunners clearly marked. I still like it, but the original's superior level design and much stronger random element make it by far the better FC Contra.

And yeah, both are only mildly difficult games, if substantial enough to trip up flailers (ie lots of people). See James/Mike's Contra run, which staggers to its pitiful end in st6. It's a ceiling flare bro! It fires when you get close then it dies down. Stop jumping into it pls. :[

Contra, Castlevania and Ninja Gaiden are the unholy trinity of casual NES nostalgism and the first is by far the least deserving of its terrifying rep. ^_~

[BrianC]

I think Contra got its rep from people using the 30 lives code and not trying to play the game proper.

[Domino]

I think Contra got its rep from people using the 30 lives code and not trying to play the game proper.

Seems like the case. It just I never put too much effort into both games to be honest until I 1cc both of them today. To be honest I feel pretty underwhelmed.

[BrianC]

And yeah, both are only mildly difficult games, if substantial enough to trip up flailers (ie lots of people). See James/Mike's Contra run, which staggers to its pitiful end in st6. It's a ceiling flare bro! It fires when you get close then it dies down. Stop jumping into it pls. :[

Some of those parts look much tricker to deal with in 2p mode, though.

[BIL]

It's the st6 set flame traps that finally torpedoed the run, however. And there as always, the basic principle is the same whether there's one or a hundred playing. If you fail, evaluate why. Don't just blunder right back into what killed you, lose all your lives, and walk away mad and ready to perpetuate the popular misconception the game is zomg impossible. :[

(or do, I don't care ROFL ;3 ;3 ;3 )

[Squire Grooktook]

I think it's also because skills like reflexes, improvisation, using your head in general etc. tend to atrophy instead of grow when you don't use them...well ever in a game.

I'd also say that Contra's iconic nature and that fact that it actually boots you back to the beginning of the stage, unlike Metal Slug 3 when you're credit feeding it in mame.

[cicada88]

Anyone here play NES action stuff (Castlevania, Contra, etc) with an arcade stick? How does it feel?

[BrianC]

Wonder Boy III: The Dragon's Trap on GenPlus GX actually says "Monster World II" on the title screen. The ROM is labelled "(USA, Europe)" and the emulator is set to auto-detect region (NTSC signal, 60 Hz update). So maybe it defaults to Japanese when the ROM's multi-region?

WBII has "Monster World II" on the title screen in JP mode. I couldn't get it to work on my JP SMS (and I heard from others that had similar problems on FM enabled Mark III/SMS hardware), but it does play that way on the region switched Genesis with PBC. The odd thing is that the text is still in English.

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

Beat New Super Luigi U just now (having beaten New Super Mario Bros. U several months ago). Even though I enjoyed it, I was a little disappointed. I think Nintendo still does a pretty great job with their 2D Mario games even if the NSMB aesthetics (especially the music, ick) are getting pretty old by now. Luigi U just feels like wasted potential - back when it was first announced and introduced as an expansion specifically for experienced players, I was really hoping it'd turn out something like the original SMB2 (maybe my favorite Nintendo game). But I really can't get past the tiny levels they went with; they make the game feel flat as hell and the levels, which are well-designed and have plenty of challenging bits, suffer for it. It's a shame they made that kind of compromise.

I get that this is a general Nintendo thing now but I really dislike that you have to go for all the star coins if you want to get the most out of levels in the NSMB games (and Mario 3D World) as well. I dunno, I'd rather just play the levels and not have to worry about the difficulty going down the toilet if I don't feel like going out of my way to coin hunt.

[Volteccer_Jack]

Anyone here play NES action stuff (Castlevania, Contra, etc) with an arcade stick? How does it feel?

I was messing around with my arcade stick and emulators a while back. Directional inputs were a bit of an issue, I kept walking off stairs in Castlevania and failing subweapon throws in Ninja Gaiden. Worked fine for stuff like Contra and Air Fortress though.

Try Actraiser 2 with an arcade stick sometime, sword-cancelling is so slick.

[Austin]

The reputation the series got is a bit baffling to me. I beat Contra with no items my second day playing it

I think they are well regarded because of many factors: Great visuals and excellent soundtracks for being NES games, tight controls, cool bosses and locations, and two-player simultaneous play (that last one being something I never cared about, but I know many others do). I'm personally in the mindset that a game doesn't have to be hard to be good, and the first two Contra games on the NES are examples of this. They are still some of my favorites on the system despite their easy nature.

[Squire Grooktook]

^^^Yes, they are great, but nobody is arguing that. It's more just funny how they get a reputation primarily for being hard. Mario 1 is about as hard as Contra 1.

[Ed Oscuro]

Playing Kage with the Advantage felt pretty good. Too bad I don't know of an easy way to get modern arcade sticks on the NES easily, but the Advantage already feels pretty good.

[Obscura]

A recent Steam conversation with Squire Grooktook reminded me that everyone here needs to play Dash Galaxy in the Alien Asylum if you haven't already.

It's truly one of the most unique and unforgettable pieces of software ever made. The controls are truly unlike almost any other platformer you've ever played, and the mechanics are one-of-a-kind.

Don't try to buy it, for god's sake. Grab it and try it in the NES emulator of your choice... I guarantee, it's an experience like no other.

[Squire Grooktook]

Want to see Bil and Ed do a lengthy expose of it, heh.

[Ed Oscuro]

hahaha

I actually bought that years ago, minty fresh copy. Threw it in the toaster for a while and...well...I suppose I could try it again.

Right now I'm trying to get Renny Blaster to work well in an emulator - for some reason the controls lock up in Turbo Engine 32 after the Geneva mission, or whenever I start the game back up and load a state; Ootake isn't working well enough to consider (I guess I need to fiddle with the delays; for some reason the audio delay option makes the video slow - huh? Also, no bilinear filtering disable or ISO loading, seriously?)

A bit more confident about how the controls work (this time, with character one):
Screen scrolling - the screen scrolls right when you're at about the middle of the screen, and you have to walk left until the character is almost underneath the "POW" charge attack bar for it to scroll left again. I also notice that the character also moves further right or left than where they will stop, and the screen continues scrolling for a moment to put them back in their "normal" position, which adds to the laggy feeling of the game. Most areas so far are extremely short and linear, although the Geneva stage has a number of very short detours into useless dead ends at the edges of the playfield. Also, when you get into a fight, left-right scrolling is halted when enemies get to the far right or under the POW.

Pressing direction opposite facing (i.e., left when facing right) - usually makes the character turn and take a few steps. I can just barely get the character to make an instant turn sometimes, but it's very rare that it actually works. No pixel precise positioning here, unless you halt movement by holding up/down quickly.

Double-tap facing direction - kind of neat/goofy looking run. Press Down for a short slide. Press Attack for a skidding stop and elbow jab. Press Jump for a long/high jump with a deformed trailing arm, and press Attack to somersault and kick into the landing.
Normal attack - punch. Hold left or right and then attack - middle-height kick after walking.
Hold attack and press jump - forward somersaulting kick. Vulnerable during the pause afterwards, and even easy green enemies from the first stage will retaliate.
Hold Up - character readies a fast upwards kick (press attack) that also scoots you forward a few steps. Pauses left-right movement.
Hold Down - readies low kick. Character goes back to the crouching stance before standing again (jump will be cancelled, left-right directional input. Pressing the direction opposite facing brings up the arm in a blocking stance (continues to hold if Down is released but the opposite direction is held)
Hold up, press jump and then kick - Jumps straight up and kicks rapidly twice
Hold up, hold attack and then jump - executes same attack as Up + attack (or just a standing punch if you hold attack first), then readies a higher jump with kicks from both legs
Hold Jump, press and hold attack before the top of the jump - executes a flying kick on coming down. Don't release kick too early or wait too long, or else it won't go off. Coupled with very generous forwards movement when pressing forwards, this is naturally an easily abused attack.

Looks impressive on paper, but feels crappy. Damn!

Not entirely random, but the unexpected timing windows and built-in lag make it feel that way. It's kind of amusing to watch how long it takes to execute a quick selection of inputs: Down + Back + release down + Up + Attack can be input very quickly but takes around a couple seconds to execute. In the game's defense, it doesn't drop these inputs, though it's also not buffering anything past the attack.
There's one more major system, which is nevertheless easy to cover. Holding attack charges up the POW meter; first level is a flurry of standing punches; second is a quick backwards dash followed by an attack back forwards again a bit past the starting position; third level raises your fists and executes a fairly long-range but weak shockwave.

While messing around I also discovered that the trash can under the first gray pillar hides a SD one-up doll. Also, during his intro cutscene, Private Eye Guy looks like roughly three different people. Same for the girl (Yoko Belnades prototype? She looks and dresses pretty similarly...)