Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[FinalBaton]

Oh well...

I have come to the conclusion that Double Dragon II is a much more varied game than the first chapter (OK, OK, advance is much better, but it was published 16 years afterwards). It makes sense to actually use the full move set, rather than only the elbow attack. What is the consensus, 30 years onwards?

For my tastes, I is very close to being just as good as II! Some very enjoyable enemy AI to square off against, and very fast and fluid character movement letting you zip around the screen. A great classic! There are times when I feel like playing I more than II

[__SKYe]

If we're talking about the arcade games, then DD1 really loses points in that you can elbow your way through the game from start to finish. Haven't played DD2 (ARC) much, though.

EDIT: Also, 200 pages, hot damn.

[Sumez]

200 pages of going to the right, killing stuff! Is it finally time to start moving left?

[Udderdude]

200 pages of going to the right, killing stuff! Is it finally time to start moving left?

No. Never.

[Randorama]

FB, I take it that you are being sarcastic, given that both games are plagued by slowdown
Still, in DDII there is some love in kneeing people in the face all the time (or giving them the kick+uppercut combo), as well as using the roundhouse kick.

...OK, OK, I agree that both titles didn't age well but still the discussion cannot be considered closed until BIL posts his thoughts on this

On a parallel note: I played Rolling Thunder via MAME and I feel that the final stage (2-5) is really, really demanding. I was able to get there without too many problems (one time-out at 2-3), but 2-5 is the kind of stage that requires a savestate and daily practice before mastery of it is accessed.

Right now, I simply do not even recall how to deal with the final quartet of white zakus and the Geldra big bad. It does not help that I cannot access youtube (I am in CHN). I do believe that anyone who can...remember how to handle this stage (and perform accordingly) could be able to 1-CC on a whim. Speaking of which: was Elevator Action Returns touched upon, at some point?

[__SKYe]

200 pages of going to the right, killing stuff! Is it finally time to start moving left?

No. Never.

You know, Ninja Gaiden is at least 1/3 of "running to the left", so technically speaking...

On a parallel note: I played Rolling Thunder via MAME and I feel that the final stage (2-5) is really, really demanding. I was able to get there without too many problems (one time-out at 2-3), but 2-5 is the kind of stage that requires a savestate and daily practice before mastery of it is accessed.

Right now, I simply do not even recall how to deal with the final quartet of white zakus and the Geldra big bad. It does not help that I cannot access youtube (I am in CHN). I do believe that anyone who can...remember how to handle this stage (and perform accordingly) could be able to 1-CC on a whim.

Haven't played that far, but Skykid has recenly played it and got a 1-ALL at least, though I'm not sure if he got the 2-ALL. Hopefully he'll pop by this thread soon and give his thoughts.

Speaking of which: was Elevator Action Returns touched upon, at some point?

I believe BIL, at least, has played this one, so he'll probably get back to you on that as well.

[drauch]

EA: Returns is so good. I was attempting a 1CC a while back but got sidetracked, but it's a future goal for baby me. Shame they didn't continue the series like this. I like the pace of it: slower, yet you're on the clock and needing to move to defuse bombs while returning fire, jumping barrels, and avoiding the hellivator. Slight wrong moves get ya crushed or in a bad spot, then the siren starts a blarin' and it gets all tense. It all feels very tactical to me in how you move and decide, as opposed to something like Rolling Thunder where it's more straightforward, literally and figuratively. Plus it's especially brutal and explosive. Nothing sounds like such sweet music when you shoot a rocket through a crowd, immolating all in its path as it violently explodes into a wall on the other side of the screen, glass and cameras exploding from the impact. Hopefully someone chimes in that's smarter than me so they explain why it's great other than 'durrr, I like explosions.' Crush the old older!

[FinalBaton]

@Randorama, no I wasn't being sarcastic! (I was talking about the NES ports btw)

[Sumez]

RE: EA:Returns

I gave it a few runs a year or so ago. It's a really cool game, but I don't really feel it has enough to offer to stand out as much as people make it sound.
I came a single death short of a 1CC, so I could probably do it in a few more games, but I didn't really feel like going on. I think the primary thing the game has going for it is its amazing presentation.

[BIL]

FB, I take it that you are being sarcastic, given that both games are plagued by slowdown
Still, in DDII there is some love in kneeing people in the face all the time (or giving them the kick+uppercut combo), as well as using the roundhouse kick.

...OK, OK, I agree that both titles didn't age well but still the discussion cannot be considered closed until BIL posts his thoughts on this

I know little and less of the arcade DDs, to be honest. I like the feel of both but just never encountered either growing up, and these days I'd rather play either the archetypal yet still quite sharp first Kunio, or the super-refined DD Advance.

Their sound effects alone make me glad to encounter them every time, though - a bit like arcade Golden Axe, no port or remake captured the simple grim joy of those death rattles. Although in GA's case they were kinda ripped straight outta First Blood.

Speaking of which: was Elevator Action Returns touched upon, at some point?

Perennial favourite! It's a great game, though I give it the slight caveat that it's perhaps the only AC title where maxing the difficulty setting is beneficial. Enemies are a bit slow to draw and fire on defaults, where the max takes on an almost Rolling Thunder-esque lethality (though even then it's never as brutal as Namco's games). Makes a good substitute second loop.

I want to go back to the Saturn port and get some decent Karte and Jad play in. Kinda settled on Edie - despite her low HP I'm guessing she's the beginner type, just too good at shutting down huge chunks of screen with her blistering shot rate and wide-ranged firebombs. I just picked her cos she cute but I should probably move up from SEREH KANAH to AHNULD himself.

All too literal elevator action

Spoiler

Plus it's especially brutal and explosive. Nothing sounds like such sweet music when you shoot a rocket through a crowd, immolating all in its path as it violently explodes into a wall on the other side of the screen, glass and cameras exploding from the impact.

Ah yes... dozy, yet inquisitive AI. Omniscient viewpoint. And appalling but undeniably mirthful carnage. Can't beat EAR's sense of orchestrating your very own Die Hard/Home Alone/Three Stooges scenes. Fun for the whole family!

"AIEEE" *sweet bass lick* *automatic gunfire* "GUOAAARRR" *sax solo*

[Durandal]

I've given EAR a pull some times in the past, though for some reason I could never break lights to darken up the room as videos on YouTube suggest you can. Is there something wrong with the emulation, or is the 'dynamic' lighting something only present in the Saturn version?

[WelshMegalodon]

I actually mentioned it in the emulation thread just last month. The issue has been known here and elsewhere for quite some time. (I first heard it from BIL, if I remember correctly.)

MAME's Taito F3 driver actually looks to be pretty incomplete, which makes one wonder why it hasn't been demoted to 'Imperfect'...

[Jonny2x4]

If we're talking about the arcade games, then DD1 really loses points in that you can elbow your way through the game from start to finish. Haven't played DD2 (ARC) much, though.

Yeah, it help specifies whether we're talking about Arcade or NES when discussing Double Dragon since the NES versions are practically different games. Personally I never felt the elbow punch in DD1NES was particularly overpowered compared to AC, but it's still pretty effective against the Abobos in that version. DD1AC is actually pretty tough if you forbid yourself from using the elbow. DD2AC on the other hand, is actually moderately difficult, even without self-imposed limits. The time limit in Mission 3 is ridiculously strict if you're playing on factory settings and enemy respawns if you take too long to beat them.

On a parallel note: I played Rolling Thunder via MAME and I feel that the final stage (2-5) is really, really demanding. I was able to get there without too many problems (one time-out at 2-3), but 2-5 is the kind of stage that requires a savestate and daily practice before mastery of it is accessed.

Right now, I simply do not even recall how to deal with the final quartet of white zakus and the Geldra big bad. It does not help that I cannot access youtube (I am in CHN). I do believe that anyone who can...remember how to handle this stage (and perform accordingly) could be able to 1-CC on a whim.

I remember there's a glitch in the final stage that makes you invulnerable. IIRC, it only works on the old version of the romset. I don't consider the second half of the game a second loop by the. To me, the stages are different enough to be their own thing.

I know little and less of the arcade DDs, to be honest. I like the feel of both but just never encountered either growing up, and these days I'd rather play either the archetypal yet still quite sharp first Kunio, or the super-refined DD Advance.

Their sound effects alone make me glad to encounter them every time, though - a bit like arcade Golden Axe, no port or remake captured the simple grim joy of those death rattles. Although in GA's case they were kinda ripped straight outta First Blood.

One detail I love about DD2AC was the fact that every enemy character in the game had his own death cry. I can't think of any other beat-'em-up that had that nifty attention to detail. I know one guy who disliked Double Dragon Advance because the sound effects were not as good as the first two arcade game.

Since we're on the subject of Elevator Action Returns, how's the version in Taito Memories Joukan for NTSC-J PS2? I know the version in Taito Legends 2 has the machinegun power-up gimped for no reason.

[BrianC]

Since we're on the subject of Elevator Action Returns, how's the version in Taito Memories Joukan for NTSC-J PS2? I know the version in Taito Legends 2 has the machinegun power-up gimped for no reason.

I doubt it was purposely gimped. I'm under the impression that Atomic Planet attempted to tweak the code of the JP Taito Memories (I remember reading that Taito Legends 2 PS2 was based on Taito Memories) and ended up messing up inputs in some games (probably in an attempt to lower input lag). It's not just Elevator Action 2 with that issue. Football Champ and Darius Gaiden also have the same issue of rapid fire or held down inputs not working correctly. Taito Memories Joukan's version of EAR lacks the input issue, but I heard it still has the extra slowdown and may have input lag.

[BIL]

It's not just Elevator Action 2 with that issue. Football Champ and Darius Gaiden also have the same issue of rapid fire or held down inputs not working correctly.

Yep, TL2 Metal Black as well (the beam focus mechanic doesn't work).

[BrianC]

It's not just Elevator Action 2 with that issue. Football Champ and Darius Gaiden also have the same issue of rapid fire or held down inputs not working correctly.

Yep, TL2 Metal Black as well (the beam focus mechanic doesn't work).

Doh. Missed the most obvious one. lol.

It was especially disappointing that not only the rapid/held down input issue remained in the delayed US release of TL2, but Puzzle Bobble 2 was also broken by lazily switching it to the Bust-A-Movie Again version without the proper ROMs. This caused the music to play incorrectly.

[Sumez]

I've given EAR a pull some times in the past, though for some reason I could never break lights to darken up the room as videos on YouTube suggest you can. Is there something wrong with the emulation, or is the 'dynamic' lighting something only present in the Saturn version?

I thought that was something missing from the Saturn version, actually? On the arcade cart, I'm having no trouble doing it.

[BIL]

Nope, Saturn port's lights work perfectly.

HIT THE LIGHTS

[Sumez]

Might as well sell my F3 cart and get the super cheap Saturn port instead then

[BIL]

I'll give you three fiddy ^o^

Jealous of the cart tbh. The SS one seems damn near perfect, but ala VING's other F3 port Bubble Symphony, there is a little loading (strictly once per stage start, no mid-stage badness or cramping of the "COMPLETED" fanfares). I wonder if those solid state optical drive replacements might eventually tighten those up... either way, I'm looking forward to ripping my entire Saturn collection to HDD and retiring the discs permanently.

It's been so long, I had to go back and see how MAME handled the lights. Everything visibly and audibly shatters as intended, but the floor stays lit up unfortunately. Just missing that last accent on a massacre well done.

I'm so far behind on MAME. In other F3 matters, I occasionally wonder if they ever fixed Rayforce's st3 miniboss lasers. He's supposed to fire a pair of fast parallel beams... last I knew in MAME, you can hear them, and see the "muzzle flash," but they're otherwise non-existent (right down to collision - which is for the best, I suppose).

I always forget what a riot EAR is in motion, from the biggest multi-target detonations, down to the tiny painful pratfalls - like a guard popping out to see what the racket is, before being promptly kneed in the face and falling down a lift shaft.

[Randorama]

Quick ones:

FB: ah, never played the NES version (Arcade fanatic, myself...), whence the confusion.

Jonny: I agree that DDAC1 is rather harder if you avoid the elbow abuse. DD2AC gives you much more freedom, but you need to use the backwards kick+turn+uppercut combo or the multiple knees move to avoid time problems. Stages 3 and 4 become otherwise too tough. Using the grenades to kill the doppelgangers just before the boss(es) helps out, too.
For stage 4, it is very helpful to throw in the abyss all the enemies before the stairs (the nunchak guys can be tricked into suiciding).
For Rolling Thunder: yes, calling it a "loop" may miss the point, and I also remember that only one version of the game has said glitch. Never learnt to use it, embarrassingly enough.

EAR: now, this is a game that I *still* play once per month or something, and that I can clear without too many problems (this, Darius Gaiden if it rains, and a few others).
I usually use Kart, because somersaulting suckers to death is just too hilarious after all these years.
I am half-tempted to propose a discussion on the scoring system...

who would get depressed about it? (Warning: reference to tedious milking procedures might be approaching fast).

[Stevens]

Haven't played much of anything the last few days. Was feeling lazy and played more of Yoshi's Island and Super Bases Loaded on Sunday. Would like to get back to AS and Headdy.

Also EA Returns since it's been a while.

[Jonny2x4]

Rando, how were arcade games distributed in your area? Did everything come in a dedicated cab like in the U.S. or was it just conversion kits with instruction cards? I know with World versions of Konami games, it was usually the latter.

[Randorama]

Jonny, I have a few examples in mind.

My uncle had an arcade, so he would go for conversion kits and instruction cards (cheaper...) unless the dedicated cabs made sense (say, Outrun). He would change marquees (the illustrations on top of the cab, right?) and place move sets or other instructions on the sides, when available.

For the DDs and similar games he would even be willing to write the instructions by hand, especially because DD2AC had a counterintuitive move set. For Konami games, I remember perhaps one game with a dedicated cab: the driving game in which you need to flee before your stolen car and its secrets are blown apart.

Other arcade owners wouldn't bother with instructions, but dedicated cabs were also for driving games and such (I remember playing Blasteroids and the pseudo-first person shooter from Atari on their dedicated cabs, but not at my uncle's arcade).

Bigger arcades in bigger cities could usually afford more dedicated cabs. There was a big arcade in Rome's beautiful Luna Park (now both closed, sadly) that only used conversion kits for older titles, for instance.

I know for sure that even hand-written instructions avoided people getting frustrated that they wouldn't understand the basic commands, and would thus not give up on games (again, DD2AC). For NeoGeo Games he would *sell* photocopies of the instructions and move sets.

Ah, arcades...

[Jonny2x4]

I see. I know in Japan everything post-JAMMA that wasn't a vehicle-driving or gun-shooting game (pretty much every of the so-called taikan games) was pretty much distributed as a conversion kit with instructions due to convenience, so I've assumed that it was same for other territories outside the U.S. too (since I've only seen World-specific versions of games such as Gryzor and Devil World sold as conversion kits with instruction stickers, but never as dedicated cabinets). But then I see weird cabinets such as this Hero Turtles cabinet with an Eastman/Laird-style Leonardo and a weird traceover of April O'Neil from the attract sequence on the side art, so I'm guessing it varied depending on the game and company.

Yet for some reason I've never seen a similar Euro cabinet for Turtles in Time.

[__SKYe]

Nice write up, and yeah, I bet instructions were quite necessary and informative for the more involved games, especially fighting games. That your uncle would hand-write them is pretty damn cool.

[Randorama]

I remember that my uncle had the TMNT cab with four people, but I cannot remember which version was it (maybe the one you posted).
He switched to Turtles in time by hacking the cab, and given the release times of the titles (1989, 1991), it should not be so surprising.
I do remember that TMNT (the cartoon) was extremely popular in Europe, so Konami may have invested in having dedicated "world" cabs for this title.

Speaking of which...the arcade Turtles games were fun and had great music (Kukeiha club at their finest!), but the rank system was more or less irrational. Should we discuss this topic, too?

EDIT: RE:BIL on EAR and difficulty. I need to try playing the game at the higher difficulty level and simulate a second loop. It sounds like a great idea...I will report later on.

[Jonny2x4]

I've never seen a picture of any Hero Turtles in Time cabinet online for some reason. It's all from the U.S. cabinet (unless the Euro cabinet had the same artwork and they simply just changed "Ninja" to "Hero"). Speaking of which, there's a 4-player JP version emulated on MAME, even though the game was only distributed as a 2P conversion kit in Japan. What's the deal with that? Some location test version? A ROM hack?

It's been a while since I've played any of the Turtles beat-'em-ups, but from what I've gathered from online discussions, the two arcade Turtles game are generally seen as broken quarter-muncher (which I'm guessing is why Turtles in Time never made it pass location test in Japan), whereas the 16-bit console ports on SNES and Genesis are much better regarded.

[Marc]

So after all this chat, I gave NG (SFC) a spin yesterday.... nice.
It is what it is, hyper tight and relentless. I expected to get completely stomped if I'm honest, but 30 minutes got me a pretty failsafe route to the 3rd boss. Who does then stomp me. Quite enjoyable, may play more this week. I can see it getting most frustrating if it over-uses those birds later on though.

NES games full stop sit in a funny place with me - bar one friend I didn't really grow up with the machine, so I'm less liable to forgive flaws that I'd give a free pass to on the (usually massively inferior) home computer ports.

DD2AC always stomps me at the combine harvester bit, but it's fun up until there.

Need to dig out my 360 arcade stick and give Rolling Thunder some proper time, joypad is useless for it.

[Sumez]

I don't think you need to give passes to any flaws in NES games. A lot of the games have them and suffer from them, but others are less plagued. Ninja Gaiden, in particular, is flawless.

Although I grew up with the NES myself, most of my love towards it is actually quite recent. Back when I started "retro collecting", almost 20 years ago now, I was all about the 16-bit generation, and saw the 8-bit consoles as an awkward half step that had the right ideas but neither the experience, standards or technical resources to pull off the ideal game design seen on the SNES or MegaDrive.

However, the NES definitely has a ton of stuff that was either well enough polished when it came out, or unique enough to warrant my interest anyway. And some times you will find game designs that simply haven't been properly repeated since, and the Ninja Gaiden model is one of those.