Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Anything from run & guns to modern RPGs, what else do you play?
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Ed Oscuro
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Ed Oscuro »

SriK wrote:I put together a pretty comprehensive list of gallery shooters a while back, for my own reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/7597tp02hpwu2 ... s.txt?dl=0
Hey, SriK, if you're including "partial" matches, you might consider Dick Tracy on the MD / Genesis. It has moments where you shoot into-the-screen. Kind of an interesting smashup - 2D platforming with Cabal-esque. Dick Tracy probably won't light anybody on fire but it's an interesting example of a possible way of doing things.
BIL wrote:You gotta trust in... the REFREX
\m/ :twisted: \m/
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by it290 »

I've been rocking the shit out of Huntdown. Can't believe how fun this game is. Did the arcade mode with a buddy over the weekend, we fell one life short of a 1 credit clear of all four gangs. :cry: It's pretty compelling as a single-session game, since you can set yourself out for a variety of challenges both built into the game (e.g. get the survival trophy by clearing all Hard mode levels without a death) and invented (e.g. clear the game using only a melee weapon), and many strategies are viable. You can go for some of these within a single 10-minute session or set yourself out for a 2-hour marathon, which strikes a nice balance between arcade brevity and console variety, and the concentrated spurts of violence, the atmospheric easter eggs, and rad music will keep you coming back. My only complaint is that a difficulty mode in between Hard (3 hit points) and Badass (instagib on anything hitting you) would probably be the sweet spot for me. Considering harrying the developers to add such a thing! :D
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by SriK »

Randorama wrote:SriK: thanks a lot. I am having problems with Dropbox though: would you be OK in sharing the list as a post in this thread? I also agree that Devastators et similia are a different, and possibly really tiny, sub-genre. Does anyone have a full list of these ones, too? (...I feel like I am going through a "new to videogames" kind of post).
Sure, here's the list:

Cop-Out - 1986, ZX Spectrum [?]
Cabal - 1988, Arcade
Dynamite Duke - 1989, Arcade
Blood Bros. - 1990, Arcade
Double Hawk - 1990, Master System
NAM-1975 - 1990, Neo Geo
The Punisher - 1990, NES
Spinal Breakers - 1990, Arcade
Kuwait Assault - 1991, PC
Riot - 1992, Arcade
Alligator Hunt - 1994, Arcade
The Untouchables - 1994, SNES
Wild Guns - 1994, SNES
Pirates - 1994, Arcade
Binyu Hunter - 1995, PC-98
Time Circle - 1995, PC
The Great Battle V - 1995, SNES [only in sections]
Charge 'n Blast - 1999, Arcade
Sin & Punishment - 2000, Nintendo 64
SWAT Police - 2001, Arcade
Gamshara - 2002, Arcade
Iwanaga - 2007, PC
Sin & Punishment: Star Successor - 2009, Nintendo Wii
Zombie Panic in Wonderland - 2010, Nintendo Wii
Bot Vice - 2016, PC
Wild Guns Reloaded - 2016, PS4
Ed Oscuro wrote:Hey, SriK, if you're including "partial" matches, you might consider Dick Tracy on the MD / Genesis. It has moments where you shoot into-the-screen. Kind of an interesting smashup - 2D platforming with Cabal-esque. Dick Tracy probably won't light anybody on fire but it's an interesting example of a possible way of doing things.
Yeah I'm familiar with MD Dick Tracy. I think BIL might have been the one who introduced it to me, a year or two back, when I was talking to him about my idea for a crime-themed game which combined Contra- and Cabal-style mechanics simultaneously. That Tommy gun firing into the background wreaking havoc on the city is such a great idea, but the devs didn't do nearly enough with it; the game's action is paced for retirement homes haha. I also thought the presentation was pretty dull, even given the constraints of the theme, but then again I didn't really grow up with Dick Tracy (either the comic or the movie). It's a lot of fun imagining how that game's concept could be expanded upon, probably more fun than playing it.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sima Tuna »

it290 wrote:I've been rocking the shit out of Huntdown. Can't believe how fun this game is. Did the arcade mode with a buddy over the weekend, we fell one life short of a 1 credit clear of all four gangs. :cry: It's pretty compelling as a single-session game, since you can set yourself out for a variety of challenges both built into the game (e.g. get the survival trophy by clearing all Hard mode levels without a death) and invented (e.g. clear the game using only a melee weapon), and many strategies are viable. You can go for some of these within a single 10-minute session or set yourself out for a 2-hour marathon, which strikes a nice balance between arcade brevity and console variety, and the concentrated spurts of violence, the atmospheric easter eggs, and rad music will keep you coming back. My only complaint is that a difficulty mode in between Hard (3 hit points) and Badass (instagib on anything hitting you) would probably be the sweet spot for me. Considering harrying the developers to add such a thing! :D
Nice!

I wouldn't mind at all if the devs added a mode with 2 hit points. However, you have to consider that a lot of attacks in Huntdown deal two pips of damage. 3 hit points is the minimum required to make sure you can't be one-shot from full health. I think this is the rationale for three hit points as the default in Arcade.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by it290 »

True, but if I take a rocket or a sawed-off blast to the face, I kinda feel like I deserved to die. 2 pips with medkits (and revive in 2 player mode) would keep the challenge level high without making it the Hotline-esque experience it is in Badass. I just 100%d Hard, but I can't see myself doing that in Badass for the foreseeable future—spending 10min clearing a level only to get wiped at the boss and having to restart is a lot to ask (although generally, the stages pose a bigger challenge than the bosses in Badass mode).
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Randorama »

Sumez: I tried out Alligator Hunt and Pirates. Lovely ideas...Euro execution, though :wink:
The first title seems actually good, setting aside the absurdly cheesy music. The second title...hit recognition seems janky, I guess.
I need to play them some more, anyway.

Blood Bros is an all-time favourite of mine: I came up with the genre question while playing the game again, case in point.

Mortificator: Ah, I wonder in what context I read about the name, then (and what "gallery" may refer to, honestly).

BIL:...upon multiple listenings, Vandyke's OST feels somehow like channelling a few classic bands beyond Sabbath. I cannot avoid thinking to Hawkwind and Blue Öyster Cult, because the fantasy world in the game has that rugged style typical of R.E. Howard, Ashton Smith and Moorcock's books, and those two bands created albums and "sound worlds" perfectly matching that kind of fantasy settings.

SriK: thanks a lot for the list; I knew no more than 4 or 5 of them, so it's much appreciated :wink:
Chomsky, Buckminster Fuller, Yunus and Glass would have played Battle Garegga, for sure.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Ed Oscuro wrote:
BIL wrote:You gotta trust in... the REFREX
\m/ :twisted: \m/
Ah, unfinished business. Spinal Shankers starring Lt. Hashbrowns (Ret) Image
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Randorama »

...welcome to another instalment of "Rando plays Konami games and has random questions about stuff".

In Aliens (JP version as a reference), players can get hit for 3HP before stage 2, then replenish energy for 2x2HP when the initial tunnel section splits into two connected ducts. As a result, the energy level will "roll over" and the player can go from 1 life, 5 HP to 2 lives, 1 HP (and replenish the rest of the energy, later on).

In Bucky O'Hare, extra energy may work in the same manner: on st. 1, if the player has a full health bar, the extra energy (/life) item will "roll over" the life count to 2, and to 2/3 of the health bar or something. Something similar exists in The Simpsons, Japanese version, and in Metamorphic Force (details on request).

Does anyone know if other Konami games have this "roll-over" mechanic?

Yours,

a perplexed Rando with too much time on his hands.
Chomsky, Buckminster Fuller, Yunus and Glass would have played Battle Garegga, for sure.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BryanM »

Recording my partial shirt run attempts has become increasingly frustrating. My first attempt was going well, even with the numerous um... embarrassing moments. It would have made as entertaining a vid as you can make out of Last Battle. Really thought it'd be one and done.

Oh... how naive. I've been doing nothing but choking since. In Dive Kick terms, I am a FRAUD.

The most ridiculous thing, is I lose far more runs to the chapter 1 boss than the chapter 2 boss now, something I never would have guessed in a million years when starting this thing. Considering I didn't even know that you could beat the chapter 2 boss while weighed down with a chest-prison.

I've made a major concession to the route, bypassing the matador, using the 3rd labyrinth's hyperbolic healing chamber. It's way more lame and uncool, but, I'd like for one of these to finally make it through so I can move on with mah life.

Update: This last try just now, the chapter 3 boss bullrushed me and did endless jump kicks. wtf. He NEVER does that. jfc, this game!
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Ed Oscuro »

SriK wrote: I also thought the presentation was pretty dull, even given the constraints of the theme, but then again I didn't really grow up with Dick Tracy (either the comic or the movie).
A bit OT but maybe interesting: Dick Tracy at the onset of the '90s was really weird, because your feeling now is probably similar to my feeling of it then. It was just a thing for old people. I remember a local shop was giving out little yellow buttons with Dick's granite visage or a closeup of the famous two-way-radio watch as tie-ins with the movie, I think. The movie is pretty neat stuff visually but way out of line with the comics - then again...Chester was a real original; I don't think any movie could possibly "feel" like his strips. Felt at times like OG Batman in his "shoots the bad guys" era, but also had an entire story arc about going to the moon and falling in love with a Moon Maid! A far cry from today's perfectly-toned advertising blitzes where you're made to know everything about a movie right down to color grading choices and what kind of bikes some obscure sidekick characters ride even before you step in line for your ticket.

I'll admit it - I daydreamed lots about doing a Dick Tracy style game properly. For starters, the license isn't a selling point, but "hardboiled" characters seem to fit the genre well. I'd buy it for sure!

In other news...crap, I'm bad at Magician Lord. It also kinda doesn't really grab me at all, though. Gonna try harder for Xain'd Sleena instead.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Magician Lord is a very hateful game. Image :mrgreen: Does itself few favours at any point. To explore is to die! That goes for the stages AND alternate forms. 3;

I hope Xain'd Sleena (what a bizarre name!) gets an ACA release sometime. Being Technos-developed & Taito-published, it'd seem to have a decent shot. Crisply rampant rightward shooting rampage with compellingly hard-edged space anime style (more than making up for the crushing disappoint of Jaleco's similarly handsome yet mechanically hopeless Macross tribute Formation Z). ala its close contemporaries Green Beret and Rygar, it's got the Compact Action Man™ sprite-to-screen ratio that Ninja Gaiden fans crave, and which became harder to find as the generations rolled on. :[

R2RKMF Main Theme ~ The World Needs Only One DYNAMITE BATMAN (■`w´■)
Spoiler
Image


^ look at this DOGS BREAKFAST :O Screen Edge Riding! Pointlessly Inflated Character! Fatty Fat Fat Stat Box! Looks aight in stills though. ;3

01_WHAT IS THIS PLACE.mp3
Spoiler
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Even whilst MAXING und RELAXING @ mein Gingerman freund BURINJU's gaff, your good correspondent remains eagle-eyed to such things. Image
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Only thing I hate about Xain'd is that it feels a lot less crisply mapped out than, say, Psycho-Nics Oscar or really any Data East game covering similar ground. There's those weird floating platforms in the first (leftmost) stage that are very easy to walk off, for instance. Odd.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BryanM »

It's neat how the Magician moves almost as fast as a slug, and doubles his movement speed while jumping. It's very Last Battle-like.

Oof, and to think I was worried about filling 30 minutes with text. If anything, there's not enough time to say all the things. The dumb stages are like 13 seconds long.

The ultimate over the top way to do this is to have a live spoken commentary playing alongside a scripted spoken commentary with a meta subtitle commentary along the bottom with running contextual text commentary above it. That would make life adequately hell-like for everyone.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sima Tuna »

BryanM wrote:
The ultimate over the top way to do this is to have a live spoken commentary playing alongside a scripted spoken commentary with a meta subtitle commentary along the bottom with running contextual text commentary above it. That would make life adequately hell-like for everyone.
Sounds like a perfect youtube video.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Don't forget the Unregistered Hypercam2! Just kidding, I have a phonebook-sized stack of little stickers I paste onto my monitor when enjoying the game tapes :cool:
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Ed Oscuro »

"I'm destined just to die."

Spending a bit more time with the game, it's really weird that cheesing everything seems to be the recommended way of playing. Grimdark setting, false walls...maybe this is the OG Dark Souls? :shock:
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BryanM »

Yeep, the nonsensical translation that somehow seems deep and introspective, the surreal nightmare world settings, the bullying pressure to cheese... those are all very Last Battle-like, too.

The biggest difference between the two games, is ML doesn't let you survive ten billion hits from trash mobs.

On the topic of kusoge, and how they're more free to experiment when it comes to game design and aesthetics, I just realized that Street Fighter 1 is a kusoge, super big time. It's definitely a bigger stinker than Last Battle and Magician Lord. And I'm not sure you can even draw a straight line from SF1 to SF2. Were there earlier games that let you perform moves by wiggling the stick? If there was, SF1's got nothing and is the worst kusoge.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BEAMLORD »

Magician Lord can also climb ladders faster than Buster Keaton. Truly a master of arcane arts
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Ed Oscuro wrote:"I'm destined just to die."

Spending a bit more time with the game, it's really weird that cheesing everything seems to be the recommended way of playing. Grimdark setting, false walls...maybe this is the OG Dark Souls? :shock:
Magic Sword is genuinely pretty close to a scrolling action Souls, imo. Specifically a scrolling action Bloodborne, given BB's tight, quasi-oldschool area design. Nonlinearly hack/slash through an evil den, mapping its oases, learning to arrive in progressively better shape, until death-staving tourniquets become garottes for masterly slaughter. Add some bonfires (limited use for anti-CHEEZE) and, once the casuals got over their innate terror of recreational challenge, they might find the bloody road from pants-shat noob to keen HOONTER of Things What Should Not Be similarly thrilling!

"BAWWWWWW!"

WTF? What's that?

"MUH XP POINTZ! THEY DO NUFFING!"

Oh. A foundational principle, inherited from older 3D dash/gashers like Shinobi and ZOE2: you want to Quickstep into attacks - not away from them. The former will place you at the enemy's open flank, ready to capitalise. The latter will see you punished identically. My dude (Ninja Commando DR RICHARD BIRUFORD) is at literally max level, and he'll still die to egregious fuckups like that! Similar punishment awaits delinquent play in Magic Sword, too! And in MANY other great scrolling action games! Image

(Recently happened across one of countless navel-gazing Souls articles, titled something like "You Are The Experience Points" - in which the good author shares his revelation, that a key appeal is From's imperative to not merely GRINDAN, but actively observe and adapt to your character, enemies and world. The player developing alongside their avatar, the latter more a means of expressing one's ability, than the source of it... my word, it's almost like... learning to play a game! :o Wow! REVOURUTIONALY! :shock:

It's a helluva thing, sneaking videogames into the mainstream movie rental basket. 3; Good on Miyazaki & co for cracking the case :cool:)

Magician Lord roughly conforms to the above description of Magic Sword, at a distance. In reality though, its nonlinearity and build variety are canards of the most cruelly deceptive sort. Stick to your floppy-hatted guns, and figure out the quickest route from A to B. All the rest is junk designed to end your credit (and look cool in screenshots, ofc).

Technically, its enormous off-trail world does have some use: for veterans seeking a little scoring challenge. "I'll just milk zako LMAO" No you won't Jack! Not with that Shambler From Teh Stars lurking above, rarin' to eat your muhfuckin head off! Image "I'll run to the next room! Haw haw!" No, it follows you. "AIEEEEE!" Damn! Now that's ROVECLAFTIAN GAME DESIGN Image

Sadly, as venerable ben_shinobi demonstrates, there's an exploit that'll keep the star-spawned fiend at bay. Not easy to pull off, but most definitely doable. So close yet so far. Image Might still be interesting to score-attack, with the gentlemanly (WIZARDLY Image) agreement that stage 6 Ain't Worth Shit. Image
BryanM wrote:Yeep, the nonsensical translation that somehow seems deep and introspective, the surreal nightmare world settings, the bullying pressure to cheese... those are all very Last Battle-like, too.

The biggest difference between the two games, is ML doesn't let you survive ten billion hits from trash mobs.
Did you have any luck with that Raiden run? I put Musashi on the back burner, because I had other games to clear *without* hellish self-imposed restrictions - like, a couple NEET lifetimes' worth. 3; Mushi's the only alt who's not a one-trick situational shite pony, in my Magician Dilettante opinion, though even he requires the DISCIPRINE. Image

Magician Lord, or Just Shoot The Fuckers. Image
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BryanM »

Gasp, Raiden is way too generous a simile. It's more like Parodius, with its gentle difficulty.

Not the best run (I tend to avoid looking directly at the screen during walking stages, to help keep what scraps of sanity I have left), but it shows the exploits for the first three bosses. I'm just finishing up the text commentary, should only be two or three more days. I know zero people on the planet will ever actually read it, but this game is so completely undocumented in the english internet I feel like it's my duty.
"MUH XP POINTZ! THEY DO NUFFING!"
Hee, such mean bullying from the chat. They're bullying'em harder than the game is!

I can kind of sympathize, but um, not from the not-dodging thing, nor the lack of a games journalist difficulty mode. I've never played these games, and I still hear Piccolo screaming "DOOOOOODGE!" in my ear.

No, it's from one of my greatest gaming shames: in Monster Hunter games, I'm told you can dodge the AoE roar attack that causes your guy to freeze up and cringe. Some i-frame in the middle of the roll. I've never been able to find it. Decades later, I'm still unwilling to use the cowardly power of [s]friendship[/s] youtube to see where it is. I'll figure it out myself, damnit.
Magic Sword
Ah, I really liked this game playing it in the arcade. I'm a sap for Cadash-ish style action rpg's. It was a little disappointing to see the whole thing later on - it's kind of like eight stages worth of content spread out past their breaking point. Like a thin layer of peanut butter. Kind of like Gauntlet does.

It's one of the most annoying things about making graphical games - you have to create all this art, and then rig all these different enemies in source.... all for levels the vast, vast majority of players will never see, if it's an arcade game. I understand the reason why they need to pad, it's just a bit sad we don't live in a universe where that didn't need to be so.
Magician Lord's nonlinearity
I think there's one stage that's about 20 steps long with the correct route? And if you go the wrong direction, you can fight a completely skippable midboss?

Definitely not something a "real" game would ever do. That's something you can find only in the magical, unpredictable world of kusoge~
there's an exploit that'll keep the star-spawned fiend at bay
So much bunnyhopping yaay >_<

This is actually a big problem in game design: moving fast is more fun, but also makes you more powerful. I can't stand playing Kid Icarus without a fastforward button, but mooks in Diablo 2 are far less dangerous versus Diablo 1 since you can actually bypass them. A sort of "tourist run" feature that'd let you run when there's no enemies around would be kind of wonky.

Dragalia Lost is (soon to be, 'was') the only game I've seen use something like that: as you run uninterrupted, you eventually build up steam and start moving faster. Kind of the exact opposite of Diablo 2's stamina system.

For Magician Lord, it's not 100% sure if the devs even knew that you move faster when jumping. Just another wonderful little thing about kusoge, that you get to wonder if they even knew what they were doing. Oftentimes the answer is "if you have to ask, probably not." And if the answer is obviously "yes they did", it's usually followed up by "those absolute bastards."
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

BryanM wrote:Gasp, Raiden is way too generous a simile. It's more like Parodius, with its gentle difficulty.
Gaahhh, fuck! :O Brainfart. I meant Raijin, Magician Lord's electro-dude form. His AOE shield and spinneh-mah-winneh flip (more ninja than the Ninja tbh) is really useful in like two places, where you need to fend off encroaching bullets (st5 boss comes to mind)... but its pitiful DPS means you'll need a triple doctorate in Stage 5, 6 and 7 studies to survive. 3;

I forgot all about Ninja. He's basically Wizard with marginally less DPS and marginally more HP. Decent bodyarmour character when you're learning the cruel ropes. Ditch him for Wizard when you go for the clear though. Once you have the basic layout down, you'll want kill-on-sight firepower.
Not the best run (I tend to avoid looking directly at the screen during walking stages, to help keep what scraps of sanity I have left), but it shows the exploits for the first three bosses. I'm just finishing up the text commentary, should only be two or three more days. I know zero people on the planet will ever actually read it, but this game is so completely undocumented in the english internet I feel like it's my duty.
I always say, it's about the one other dude on the planet. :mrgreen: Seriously, glad to see others doing a bit of guidance. It's a surprising amount of work, writing a decent guide, let alone adding video or even images. That on top of these games naturally tending to demand a lot of time.
"MUH XP POINTZ! THEY DO NUFFING!"
Hee, such mean bullying from the chat. They're bullying'em harder than the game is!

I can kind of sympathize, but um, not from the not-dodging thing, nor the lack of a games journalist difficulty mode. I've never played these games, and I still hear Piccolo screaming "DOOOOOODGE!" in my ear.
Ludwig World Order really put the work in there - masterful document of not only DSP, but scrub mentality at large. Image It's not that DSP got crushed like a flea. There's no shame in dying, particularly to foes aimed squarely to kill! Shit happens! But unlike IRL, here, you can learn from your death - returning like Jebus, to smite the cunts proper! It's a fuckin videogame bro chill out, you're not grandpa in NAM watching his buddies fall into the punji trap. :shock:

It's the failure to learn (and the inevitably comorbid arrogance) that makes a scrub. If they'd quit blubbering, and definitely quit trying to coast by on GRINDAN, they'd find whole constellations of vulnerabilities to exploit, in this and any other quality action game. It truly is a pearls before Pigroach scenario with DSP, every time. What a loathsome slob in general, tbh.

A far classier fellow is our own beloved forum pet, DTP!
DrTrouserPlank wrote:I don't see how I can get any better. The reason I am not improving is because I am as good as it is possible to be.
One for the ages. :cool:
No, it's from one of my greatest gaming shames: in Monster Hunter games, I'm told you can dodge the AoE roar attack that causes your guy to freeze up and cringe. Some i-frame in the middle of the roll. I've never been able to find it. Decades later, I'm still unwilling to use the cowardly power of [s]friendship[/s] youtube to see where it is. I'll figure it out myself, damnit.
That sounds eerily similar to my adventures with Parl The Giant Hairless Cat in BB (BROTIP: play with headphones, Miyazaki loooves his audio cues! coil whine stops = time 2 roll motherfucker!). Only, as with Cutty-kun demolishing poor panic-dodging DSP there, it's relatively generous on timing. I'm pretty sure you're meant to AOE dodge with Parl, since his thing is "scratches unmercifully at range / asplodes BR00TALLY yet predictably up close, where you can slap his flapping ballbag."

Haven't played MonHun (it took years of remorseless CYBER VIOLENCE from impetuous young Burinju just to get my OAP ass into BB), but I notice a lot of commonalities in quality 3D Hard Action like that, dating back to my PS2 salad days with DMC, ZOE2 and Shinobi. All about discerningly generous i-frames! Equalises the innate loss of precision that comes with 3D action. (not a knock or a "TWODEE MASTER RACE" willy-wave; just the way of things, when we're operating in 3D space yet still watching a screen and holding a controller like it's 196X)
Magic Sword
Ah, I really liked this game playing it in the arcade. I'm a sap for Cadash-ish style action rpg's. It was a little disappointing to see the whole thing later on - it's kind of like eight stages worth of content spread out past their breaking point. Kind of like Gauntlet does.

It's one of the most annoying things about making graphical games - you have to create all this art, and then rig all these different enemies in source.... all for levels the vast, vast majority of players will never see, if it's an arcade game. I understand the reason why they need to pad, it's just a bit sad we don't live in a universe where that didn't need to be so.
The first stage's long, scenic path through the village, into the woods and finally arriving at the tower base is definitely some vintage false advertising. :cool: Like a Bloodborne that ends the gorgeously-detailed main story at the first boss, then spends the remainder in Chalice aka DUNGEON WAD EDITOR mode. I can dig the latter, but I do feel a bit numb after a good couple hours running down marginally different hallways hoovering up loot (in MS, BB and Gauntlet alike). It's a bit like IRL, I suppose. Except the loot isn't real! Unless you're DSP, which brings its own set of horrors. 3;
Magician Lord's nonlinearity
I think there's one stage that's about 20 steps long with the correct route? And if you go the wrong direction, you can fight a completely skippable midboss?
Sounds like Stage 3, where the winning move is to ignore every door besides the last one - although there's also stage 4, where the gold strat is to ignore every door besides the first. :cool: (if you go alll the way to the right, you'll be treated to not just a cool exclusive Winged Knight midboss, later seen in ADK's similarly vexing Crossed Swords, but also a movingly vast sea of clouds they should've really just let you see normally)
For Magician Lord, it's not 100% sure if the devs even knew that you move faster when jumping. Just another wonderful little thing about kusoge, that you get to wonder if they even knew what they were doing. Oftentimes the answer is "if you have to ask, probably not." And if the answer is obviously "yes they did", it's usually followed up by "those absolute bastards."
I'm pretty comfortable assuming they did understand their handling model, given several scenarios. st5's frog rushes, for example, or its miniboss's high/low mixups (a nice little reflex/fine-motor test). Either someone designed those and other things around the air control, or things worked out well enough for it to not matter.

Worth also noting that the primary gain of bunnyhopping in ML isn't speed, but being able to move and attack simultaneously, without which you'd be screwed by basically every miniboss and most bosses. This is something seen in dozens of sidescrollers, including lots of plainly well-engineered ones. Better-engineered than ML's clumsy grafting of standard-issue Makaimuraesque hop/shoot with a rambling sidescrolling ARPG, at any rate.
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Despatche
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Despatche »

Would be nice if people stopped calling perfectly fine games "kusoge". I feel like noone outside of Japan should be using that word. Just the other day I found a new submission at GameFAQs where the clown was calling AeroGauge of all things a kusoge. Absolutely pathetic. Speaking of kusoge though, Raiden is right over there. Nothing "perfectly fine" about that game.

You can draw a line from SF1 to SF2, but you can also draw a line from SF1 to Fatal Fury 1. I'm not sure which line is shorter anymore.
Rage Pro, Rage Fury, Rage MAXX!
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Sima Tuna
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sima Tuna »

Hey, I like Raiden! God knows why. That game is brutal and so cruel. But that boppin' music, the kickass chibi-military designs and the way the little raiden ship flies around... It's an experience, maaaaan. Getting sniped in the ass from a tank that was 99% of the way off the screen is just part of the charm.
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BIL
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

I wish the ratio of horizontally-locked verts to scrolling ones was inverted. 3; As in, not just Video System/Psikyo and the odd NMK (and SameSame2P, and ImageFight, and Elemental Master, and Gun.Smoke, and Dangun, and you know what fuck it... :lol:)

Worst of all is when you find a good game with bizarre scrolling policies, ie Trigon and Gunnail, both of which have your ship hit the screen edge before it's done scrolling all the way.

None of this stops me from enjoying the typical Toaplanesque horizontally-panning vert, I'd just nix it in a second. Adds a silly extra layer of memorisation (ie FUCKOFF MASSIVE TANK CLUSTER HERE / 2000MPH TURRET BATTERY HERE). Thunder Dragon 2, among the most curatively feelgood arcade STGs ever, benefits hugely from the locked horizontal cam. Perfect ship speed/shot/hitbox, and no offscreen bullshit.

On the subject of R2RKMF, Ikari and Dogosoken play beautifully with their vert-only battlefields. Player and enemies alike move glacially, but you can instantly see the whole picture, so it's all good. Guevara OTOH can be an absolute pain in the ass, on top of just being a biblically mean sonofabitch in general. The last two stages are hands-down the toughest, technically - yet they're actually less of a pain to nail down, since they return to classic vert-only scrolling. Nails-hard yet crisply visible stages have nothing on blindly bumbling into the offscreen fug.

Scrolling action camerawork is an underrated discipline imo (adding that thread to the index, some good stuff in there :9). Nothing will kill my interest quicker than shitty character framing... I still can't stomach Athena, worst game I've bought in two decades. Worst scrolling camera I've ever seen. Also a bunch of other issues, but the framing is the kiss of death. I only occasionally revisit it because so many badass JP/Korean players seem to love systematically demolishing it.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by dojo_b »

I like NG-style center-locking, but I think part of the reason it works so well is that the game is built around the expectation of pretty steady forward movement (even punishing backtracking to a fairly absurd degree with its oft-discussed respawn quirk).

If the protagonist did more backwards/forwards, especially in a tight dodge/weave fashion, I think the camera movement could start to feel lurchy.

So I'm curious whether there are examples of a system in which the camera follows the player, but the pan speed is a quadratic function of player position. Player in the middle --> camera stationary. As player approaches something like 70-75% of the way right, the pan speed approaches the max player speed, so they can only approach this invisible boundary, but it doesn't "feel like a wall" the way an aforementioned camera policy does.

There is also the related notion of letting the cameraman/Lakitu trajectory be a smoothed/low-pass-filtered version of the player's. I imagine these ideas have been explored in much greater depth for 3D games, rightfully so, but you are right that the 2D sidescroller/vert world should not be complacent about these issues.


Incidentally, I'm having a real blast playing through Elemental Master for the first time, which BIL perfectly summarized as "a frantic yet expertly player-friendly battle on two fronts". I had approached it as a relatively casual 1CC goal for shmupping literacy, but the rugged earthbound terrain, the bi-directional shooting, and the recurring need for crowd-control on both flanks distinguish it from much space-shooter fare. I've never spent serious time with top-down run-n-guns, but I'm looking around for next steps, with a preference for a fairly zippy protagonist and console-not-arcade challenge.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

Elemental Master is pitch-perfect. :smile: While it's not ground-based, I'd mention Siter Skain's Kamui in the same expertly consolised bracket. Similarly nails a balance of generosity and intensity, with the addition of a very compelling scoring game.

EDIT: Haha, thought I remembered citing Kamui a bit further down the thread.

For topdown run/gun, Twinkle Tale (MD) is an easy rec. Instantly pickup-and-playable, and it packs a decent challenge too, without leaving that distinctly player-friendlier sphere. Also try out the MD version of Senjou no Okami II aka Mercs; its Original Mode is secretly one of the greatest topdown ARPGs ever. Seamless hybrid of shredding action and addictive loot-finding.

Kiki Kaikai: Nazo no Kuro Mantle (SFC) is another perennial favourite, but despite its adorable looks, it's actually pretty tough - mostly due to Natsume's favourite powerdown-on-damage penalty. Will take a while to hold onto max firepower, though it's still a perfectly well-designed game if you don't mind the early knocks.

I've never had an issue with twitchy left/right movement in the FC Ninja Gaidens - I'm guessing since Ryu is locked to screen center, and the left/right pan is perfectly synced to my d-pad presses, there's no sense of disconnect.

Super Shinobi II and Alien Soldier, on the other hand - both offset their characters away from the incoming screen, which is generally helpful... but a couple of bosses in each game demand quick L/R dodging, which causes the camera to lash back and forth distractingly, as it attempts to reorient itself with each d-pad press. I think it'd have made sense to temporarily switch to center-lock for those bosses.

Thankfully they're very much the exceptions. (also, despite them sharing the same offset framing, Alien Soldier's a much better-shot game, with it enforcing strict horizontal OR vertical scrolling - SS2, like its predecessor, has a bad habit of plonking Joe into the middle of vast eight-way playfields full of unseen dangers)
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BryanM »

Talking about the avant-garde, always thought Super Pitfall was a rather avant-garde run 'n gun game. That 5 second music loop is so far removed from the ASMR traps that are standard today. And loading time in an NES game! Incredible.

When I learned it was originally a computer game.... which is completely different.... and more like a real game.... It made me feel like the universe was broken in someway, and left me with many questions I'm unable to begin to articulate.
Despatche wrote:Would be nice if people stopped calling perfectly fine games "kusoge".
But "kusoge" is a compliment? It means the game is actually memorable.

It's not like anyone thinks about J.J. Squawkers these days. As opposed to... SF1.... *shudder* *vomit*

Oi I feel motion sickness just thinking about that... thing.... in movement. So avant-garde, to intentionally make people lose their lunch like that. Those devs were artists.

The amusing thing, is ever-rising standards and a saturated market diminishes the value of highly acclaimed games. Cave Story was great when it was released back in 1847 when it was the only thing with those vibes in town. Nowadays it suffers that absolute worst insult you can possibly give a game: it's "perfectly fine".

Deviancy is where interesting ideas are found. Success, just waters something down until it's not special any more.
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BIL
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

JJ Squawkers is a well-regarded game ITT. Between JJ, BioMetal and DAIOHHH, Athena demonstrated some serious mahfuckin chops. Even Dragon Unit was somewhat redeemed by its FC followup Sword Master, though that one's kind of a joke too.
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by Sumez »

BIL wrote:I wish the ratio of horizontally-locked verts to scrolling ones was inverted. 3; As in, not just Video System/Psikyo and the odd NMK (and SameSame2P, and ImageFight, and Elemental Master, and Gun.Smoke, and Dangun, and you know what fuck it... :lol:)
Sad to see this take, is it really a prominent one?
Yes, scrolling a sniper tank into view only to be shot point blank immediately sucks, but I'd blame the game design, not the screen panning itself.

Personally, having just a slight horizontal panning always just felt better to me in vertical scrollers. Not like an entire extra screen worth of content, but really just the amount you typically see in Cave games and such. I feel like it's something that gives me just a tiny bit more player agency in an otherwise autoscrolling game, allowing me to plot a route through a game and feel like I'm actually playing a stage rather than having it thrown at me. I think I would like Flying Shark a whole lot less if it didn't have it.

Strangely I don't really enjoy the vertical panning in horis though, especially when Thunderforce does it it's a big turn off for me.
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BIL
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Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

Post by BIL »

It's really just the harder Toaplanesques - typically featuring a moderate-speed, less-forgivingly hitboxed ship VS wickedly fast aimed shots - where it bothers me. Stuff like SameSame1P, Trigon and Raiden II, where things are extreme enough that if an enemy is close enough to you, it's possible you'll get clipped even if you're already moving when they open fire. I'm A-OK with that (pre-emptively stagger-sweeping the field is particularly fundamental in this style of STG), but having to memorise where stuff is lurking offscreen feels punitive.

Hishouzame actually isn't one of these imo, with its superbly well-balanced ship.

The freely vertical-scrolling bits of Thunder Force, Gradius et al always make me uneasy too. I prefer it when horis just autoscroll vertically as the stage design requires, ala X-Multiply's excellently foreboding penultimate stage.

In more forgivingly-hitboxed stuff like DDP or Garegga, even with the slower ships, I find it way less of an issue.

Among non-STGs, while I find Guevara the most punishing, the topdown scrolling action game I've found the flat-out worst for this is actually Story of Thor (MD). An easygoing ARPG/brawler, to be sure, but god damn - the way your dude is perpetually riding the screen edge while I'm trying to explore enemy and trap-infested dungeons makes my teeth hurt. Ikari III (AC) also suffers from ghastly topdown framing... SNK's in-house FC reinterpretation is infinitely more likeable.
Last edited by BIL on Thu Apr 21, 2022 5:51 am, edited 3 times in total.
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