Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

[SavagePencil]

I would expect that even in the 8-bit era they would be using fixed point numbers for velocity, and not having to do a division in realtime (e.g., hardcode the sqrt(2)/2 for X and Y deltas on diagonals.

[Lemnear]

For someone who loved Under Defeat, how much is similar Zero Gunner 2? should i try it?

They're not much alike, tbh, other than the basic concept of strafing. Where UD is a RayStormesque 2.5d take on Kyuukyoku Tiger, ZG2 is more like an arena STG with occasional terrain elements. Even their approach to strafing is very different, with UD limited to 45' tilts, and ZG2 letting you sweep a full 360'.

That said, ZG2 doesn't play much like Psikyo's other STGs, either. It's arguably nearer their topdown arena run/gun Cannon Spike. And I do like both it and UD, being very fond of strafing mechanics in general. So I'd give it a try.

Really? Not like the other Psikyo games? Better. I think that they are the "Standard High Elo" in the SHMUPS Developers pantheon. Their games are good, but not excelling in anything in particular...apart for Sol Divide that was absurd .

Offhand, it wouldn't surprise me. There are quite a few STGs like that, including a few really famous ones like Rayforce. An easy way to check if movement speed is standardised is to grind the ship diagonally along the screen edges, and see if it slows down. This effect can be legit handy when you want especially small micro-taps, haha.

i will try it with the RayForce Demo

Testing whether a given shmup is a 'movement normalizer' is an essential pre-flight check

This kind of tips normally are not on guidelines..thx!

[Lander]

Wait, is this the actual reason for this? I'd always assumed there was some gameplay/stylistic choice for this. Like, don't the Darius games have funky diagonals?

Probably less so in 8-way shooters now I think about it, since you can precalculate the division and apply it conditionally based the 9 possible stick states. In that context it's more likely to be oversight or intentional design.

The expense angle is more applicable to cases where there are so many permutations of velocity / direction that precalculating becomes nonviable, like a shooter with inertia or a 3D game trying to avoid Goldeneye / PD style boxrunning.

...Or a naively-developed modern STG that doesn't have tight instruction and memory limits to worry about

[jpd66]

Hey all, I’ve got a couple of noob questions for ya. I’m interested in playing M2 Shottriggers stuff, particularly Battle Garegga. I’ve got a Switch, but it doesn’t seem like Garegga, Ketsui, Dangun, or Mahou Daisakusen are ever coming to the Switch. So I’m considering getting a Playstation to play these games. But I’m not sure if I want to go with a PS4 or PS5. I also wonder when devs like M2 or anybody else whose releases are worth playing might stop releasing stuff on PS4, to pivot to the PS5, as time goes on. I saw that the new Tatsujin Extreme game is currently for PS5 only, which made me wonder about how much longer the PS4 would get these cool shmups. I also wonder about where the rest of the Toaplan Arcade Garage stuff might end up(really dig Hishou Same Same Same and Zerofire). I also wonder about things that haven’t even been announced yet(Shottriggers Batrider would be cool wouldn’t it?!)

Anyway, has anyone here played Garegga rev.2016 on a PS5, and did it play well? Any issues with playing it on a PS5 vs a PS4? Any insights about how much longer before developers might start to move on from current gen consoles? I’m a dude in my 40s who recently got into this stuff after not having touched a video game since high school. So, in other words, I don’t know much about how all this tends to work.

[Steven]

PS5 is the closest thing there is to a modern SuperGrafx. It plays almost every PS4 game but has so few exclusives of its own that it really isn't worth buying at all over the PS4 as of right now, just like how the PC Engine and SuperGrafx are.

That said, get the PS5. It can do almost everything the PS4 can do and more, will be supported further in the future, will eventually get stuff that doesn't show up on PS4, and runs some PS4 games significantly better than the PS4 does. PS5 also has 60FPS capture in case you want to post replays and are, like me, too lazy to go buy a capture card.

[jpd66]

Thanks for the response, I appreciate it!

[EngineerSTG]

PS5 is the closest thing there is to a modern SuperGrafx. It plays almost every PS4 game but has so few exclusives of its own that it really isn't worth buying at all over the PS4 as of right now, just like how the PC Engine and SuperGrafx are.

That said, get the PS5. It can do almost everything the PS4 can do and more, will be supported further in the future, will eventually get stuff that doesn't show up on PS4, and runs some PS4 games significantly better than the PS4 does. PS5 also has 60FPS capture in case you want to post replays and are, like me, too lazy to go buy a capture card.

This is exactly my take. I love that I don’t have to mess around with PC’s or capture cards and can just record directly from the PS5 and even toss it on your YouTube channel.

[Lemnear]

Do you have some preference on the "type" of ships? (Slow//Fast, Low Damage//High Damage, Spread-Shot//Straight-Shot etc.).
Or do you use simply the best performing one? (especially for high-score).

[Nahar]

I usually prefer to play with the highest speed that I can control, even if I have to sacrifice some firepower. I can always shoot a bit more time if I feel comfotable dodging, but a shorter fight might be riskier if I'm too slow.

[jpd66]

Do you have some preference on the "type" of ships? (Slow//Fast, Low Damage//High Damage, Spread-Shot//Straight-Shot etc.).
Or do you use simply the best performing one? (especially for high-score).

Was this question for me? Not sure, but I’ll go ahead. I’m not sure that I have a strong preference to be honest. I would say it depends on the game. Generally speaking, I tend to be more into basic survival play than scoring. Regarding ship/shot types, I think I tend to enjoy a ship that has enough speed and shot power/coverage to handle the action that the game throws at me. I don’t want to be underpowered because it’s exhausting to be hanging on for dear life for long periods. But I also don’t want to be overpowered because it makes the challenge feel trivial and un-engaging…Same with speed. Too fast, and it’s hard to control; too slow, and evading certain dangers is dicey…
I guess I like ships that fall generally into a “Goldilocks zone” of sorts.

[XoPachi]

Does Bike Banditz have an option for windowed mode? I know it's ancient, but maybe someone has a way.

[Lander]

Does Bike Banditz have an option for windowed mode? I know it's ancient, but maybe someone has a way.

Try dgVoodoo2 - it's a DLL drop-in that hijacks old DirectX to make it work better on modern machines, letting you override stuff like resolution and window mode. Absolute godsend for making older PC games behave nicely.

[Lemnear]

Hey! there is an input-lag list?
(http://electricunderground.io/shmup-input-lag-database/ this doesn't work).
and this is incomplete: https://shmups.wiki/library/Input_lag

I want to know with how much lag i'm playing right now
PS: Tried for the first time Ketsui Rev.2 (ROM), reach mid-3rd Stage with 1CC (Stage 1 and 2 no death, blind run)...i've tried also M.U.S.H.A. Aleste, i lose immediately within 30sec from the beginning lol

[Bar81]

One of my favorite games is Cave's ESP Ra.De (not a fan of their output generally, strangely enough) - I found the below amongst my PCBs - it's a set of pins/badges for the game. I can't find any information about it but the numbering seems to imply it's the first in a series. Anyone have any info they can share?

https://app.box.com/s/bve8jm6m72hrt31ztmlop6ydocejr0cz

[Lander]

Hey! there is an input-lag list?
(http://electricunderground.io/shmup-input-lag-database/ this doesn't work).
and this is incomplete: https://shmups.wiki/library/Input_lag

I want to know with how much lag i'm playing right now

You can measure it yourself if the emulator has a pause / frame advance feature; get into gameplay, pause, then hold a direction on the stick and press Frame Advance until you see the ship move. The number of internal lag frames is equal to the number of presses minus one.

Using Ketsui as an example, it takes 2 presses of Frame Advance before the ship will visibly move, so the game has 1 frame of internal lag.

And according to my own offline database, MUSHA has 2 frames of lag.

PS: Tried for the first time Ketsui Rev.2 (ROM), reach mid-3rd Stage with 1CC (Stage 1 and 2 no death, blind run)...i've tried also M.U.S.H.A. Aleste, i lose immediately within 30sec from the beginning lol

You beat Sphinx (the St2 canister bomb tank) no-death blind? Good lord well done!

[XoPachi]

Can someone give me a short list of chunkier pixel'd STG's if possible? Things like 0st Ranger and MiniShoterRS Delta? Things that look designed for much lower res hardware. I love the look of those. Bonus if it has nasty ass, crusty ass GBA sounding music like MiniShoter.

Try dgVoodoo2 - it's a DLL drop-in that hijacks old DirectX to make it work better on modern machines, letting you override stuff like resolution and window mode. Absolute godsend for making older PC games behave nicely.

Thank you.

[To Far Away Times]

Can someone give me a short list of chunkier pixel'd STG's if possible? Things like 0st Ranger and MiniShoterRS Delta? Things that look designed for much lower res hardware. I love the look of those. Bonus if it has nasty ass, crusty ass GBA sounding music like MiniShoter.

Thank you.

Did someone say chunky pixels?

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I've got such a boner for Vastynex I swear it's priapism at this point. Really, everything by him's great.

[Nugs]

Can someone give me a short list of chunkier pixel'd STG's if possible? Things like 0st Ranger and MiniShoterRS Delta? Things that look designed for much lower res hardware. I love the look of those. Bonus if it has nasty ass, crusty ass GBA sounding music like MiniShoter.

Thank you.

https://aktanedev.itch.io/crossgunr

https://www.lexaloffle.com/bbs/?pid=131586

[Lemnear]

PS: Tried for the first time Ketsui Rev.2 (ROM), reach mid-3rd Stage with 1CC (Stage 1 and 2 no death, blind run)...i've tried also M.U.S.H.A. Aleste, i lose immediately within 30sec from the beginning lol

You beat Sphinx (the St2 canister bomb tank) no-death blind? Good lord well done!

2 Bombs were used in the second stage ...mmm looks like in this version you can't add any credits D:

[lukk]

Any recommendations for a good dpad for PS5?
I'm really REALLY wanting to use an M30 or even the new 8bitdo Neo Geo controller as I loved the old Neo Geo CD pads but can't for the life of me figure out what I need to pair those with adapter wise. The PS5 has been super frustrating.
Thanks!

Mayflash Magic-S Pro 2 supports the bluetooth M30 both wirelessly and with usb-c cord, the 2.4ghz M30 only with the cord, and wired 8bitdo Pro 2 doesn't work at all.

Same thing with Brook Wingman XB2 on the 360 except the 2.4ghz M30 works wirelessly too, the Playstation Wingman (XE2?) should be the same.

Only works in PS4 games (and PS5 menus) of course.

[Lemnear]

PS: Tried for the first time Ketsui Rev.2 (ROM), reach mid-3rd Stage with 1CC (Stage 1 and 2 no death, blind run)...i've tried also M.U.S.H.A. Aleste, i lose immediately within 30sec from the beginning lol

You beat Sphinx (the St2 canister bomb tank) no-death blind? Good lord well done!

2 Bombs were used in the second stage ...mmm looks like in this version you can't add any credits D:

Probably should't have used bombs in that moment, right? If there something that i know about CAVE, is that bombs are there to NOT be used (thank you ProGear..now i'm always scared to waste a bomb...)
I would never thought to end on the CAVE part of the specrtum players...

Steve, i've tried Kyukyoku Tiger.
It encapsulate not only the Toaplan old phylosophy, but their personal phylosophy too?
The game presente itself as easy, like if Toaplan told you :"Look, is easy, try it, you would beat it ", then, they proceed to gave you a false sense of confidence, you think that is easy for real, then you start to notice that the first Stage is unusually long, but you continue to collect power ups, till your copter starts to shoot in a "cross" way (i get another weapon or was cuz of power-ups?) , and thought "they wanna troll me?",i realized that it was more useful than the previous straight shot since enemies started coming to 2 different direction and that you can hit both simoultaneously with a different positioning (around the center of the screen), an initial spark of a deeper layer of gameplay? then...all of a sudden the game slaps you with a nearly empty screen and 2 bullets (litterally) ...and one of the two hits you. I stare at the screen....how was it possible?
Toaplan: "hey what's happened? Isn't easy? ".
I have the impression that they were IRL funny and badass people, the type which you shouldn't mess too much, the ones that have a "boss aura".

[Steven]

Steve, i've tried Kyukyoku Tiger.
It encapsulate not only the Toaplan old phylosophy, but their personal phylosophy too?
The game presente itself as easy, like if Toaplan told you :"Look, is easy, try it, you would beat it ", then, they proceed to gave you a false sense of confidence, you think that is easy for real, then you start to notice that the first Stage is unusually long, but you continue to collect power ups, till your copter starts to shoot in a "cross" way (i get another weapon or was cuz of power-ups?) , and thought "they wanna troll me?",i realized that it was more useful than the previous straight shot since enemies started coming to 2 different direction and that you can hit both simoultaneously with a different positioning (around the center of the screen), an initial spark of a deeper layer of gameplay? then...all of a sudden the game slaps you with a nearly empty screen and 2 bullets (litterally) ...and one of the two hits you. I stare at the screen....how was it possible?
Toaplan: "hey what's happened? Isn't easy? ".
I have the impression that they were IRL funny and badass people, the type which you shouldn't mess too much, the ones that have a "boss aura".

That's basically it, more or less. I see a lot of Uemura-san's personality, and part of his soul, in that game, especially because he did all of the enemy placement. Every time you think about how perfect or how difficult the enemy placement is without ever being cheap or unfair, that's all him. Now that you have played Kyuukyoku Tiger, if you ever go meet him and talk to him, you'll be like "now I know why this game is the way it is." It sounds crazy, but it's true. He's a nice guy, though. Those four main guys that made that game REALLY REALLY REALLY CARED, and that is what makes the game so damn special.

Also, use bombs. Yes, use them. The game gives you a lot of them and they are secondary weapons in this game, and the developers put them there to be used to attack, quite literally because it's cool to blow shit up. Yes, that's literally the reason that Toaplan has bombs: because it's cool.

[Lander]

Probably should't have used bombs in that moment, right? If there something that i know about CAVE, is that bombs are there to NOT be used (thank you ProGear..now i'm always scared to waste a bomb...)
I would never thought to end on the CAVE part of the specrtum players...

I dunno, I'd rather spend one to keep my 1UP until I get good enough for a shot at good score or a TLB attempt, even if that's their ultimate purpose

Some CAVE stuff (like Mushi) has nice bomb pacing for survival play; portioning them out across stages to smooth rough sections and tactically refill on dropped lives. Then you witness the TLB and realize that you needed every last one, and all the extends, to stand a chance

I have the impression that they were IRL funny and badass people, the type which you shouldn't mess too much, the ones that have a "boss aura".

Yeah, they seem like a real dream team. Shmup Junkie's Toaplan review video has some cool lore and interview bits with the original staff - a small prelude to the big kickstarter documentary that recently wrapped, which I'm looking forward to the general release of.

[Steven]

The team of Uemura, Yuge, Iwabuchi, and Ogihara is absolutely why the game was so good. Just go play it! I just got done myself after not playing for a week or two, and this is the result:

Spoiler

Autofire? lol don't need that~ I played without it today. If I can do this without auto, anyone can. Yes, that is my first-person view of the safe spot on the stage 10 boss mid-fight.

[Lemnear]

Probably should't have used bombs in that moment, right? If there something that i know about CAVE, is that bombs are there to NOT be used (thank you ProGear..now i'm always scared to waste a bomb...)
I would never thought to end on the CAVE part of the specrtum players...

I dunno, I'd rather spend one to keep my 1UP until I get good enough for a shot at good score or a TLB attempt, even if that's their ultimate purpose

Some CAVE stuff (like Mushi) has nice bomb pacing for survival play; portioning them out across stages to smooth rough sections and tactically refill on dropped lives. Then you witness the TLB and realize that you needed every last one, and all the extends, to stand a chance

I have the impression that they were IRL funny and badass people, the type which you shouldn't mess too much, the ones that have a "boss aura".

Yeah, they seem like a real dream team. Shmup Junkie's Toaplan review video has some cool lore and interview bits with the original staff - a small prelude to the big kickstarter documentary that recently wrapped, which I'm looking forward to the general release of.

i was right!
A total Beat'Em Up lifestyle !!!
They make it seems like other devs were just posers ahahaha.

Oh i've had the really bad idea to try the S-Tribute Demo of RayForce...is uncontrollable, looks like i'm drunken...a shame because the game looks cool and is technical impressive!.
Are the other S-Tribute the same? I understand why Steven advised against it....

So...i think that is the time for my first M2 game , but which one? what is their finest work? (and don't tell me "ALL" XD).
Im morally torn between Irem Collections (All also if the devs are "unknown) and Darius Cozmic Collection (Arcade + G-Darius), because i have the feeling that i'm missing some real SHMUPS milestones.

[Lemnear]

Probably should't have used bombs in that moment, right? If there something that i know about CAVE, is that bombs are there to NOT be used (thank you ProGear..now i'm always scared to waste a bomb...)
I would never thought to end on the CAVE part of the specrtum players...

I dunno, I'd rather spend one to keep my 1UP until I get good enough for a shot at good score or a TLB attempt, even if that's their ultimate purpose

Some CAVE stuff (like Mushi) has nice bomb pacing for survival play; portioning them out across stages to smooth rough sections and tactically refill on dropped lives. Then you witness the TLB and realize that you needed every last one, and all the extends, to stand a chance

I have the impression that they were IRL funny and badass people, the type which you shouldn't mess too much, the ones that have a "boss aura".

Yeah, they seem like a real dream team. Shmup Junkie's Toaplan review video has some cool lore and interview bits with the original staff - a small prelude to the big kickstarter documentary that recently wrapped, which I'm looking forward to the general release of.

i was right!
A total Beat'Em Up lifestyle !!!
They make it seems like other devs were just posers ahahaha.

The team of Uemura, Yuge, Iwabuchi, and Ogihara is absolutely why the game was so good. Just go play it! I just got done myself after not playing for a week or two, and this is the result:

Spoiler

Autofire? lol don't need that~ I played without it today. If I can do this without auto, anyone can. Yes, that is my first-person view of the safe spot on the stage 10 boss mid-fight.

The controls in Kyukyoku Tiger are perfectly tuned, didn't expect to be so smooth to control (for how much old it is) , and the auto-fire is not needed at all in this case.

Oh i've had the really bad idea to try the S-Tribute Demo of RayForce...is uncontrollable, looks like i'm drunken...a shame because the game looks cool and is technical impressive!.
Are the other S-Tribute the same? I understand why Steven advised against it....

________________________________________________________________________

So...i think that is the time for my first M2 game , but which one? what is their finest work? (and don't tell me "ALL" XD).
Im morally torn between Irem Collections (All Volumes, also if the devs are "unknown) and Darius Cozmic Collection (Arcade + G-Darius) also if i have DariusBurst:CS.... i have the feeling that i'm missing some real SHMUPS milestones.
Open to alternatives !!!

Oh BIL, i was near to get Zero Gunner 2, but a selvatic CyBattler spawned from the grass, and won.

[Steven]

The controls in Kyukyoku Tiger are perfectly tuned, didn't expect to be so smooth to control (for how much old it is) , and the auto-fire is not needed at all in this case.

In Twin Cobra the speed of the helicopter was increased and the enemy bullet speed was reduced, which almost completely sabotages the super tight design of Kyuukyoku Tiger. The enemy bullet speed and player movement were perfect, so I'm not really sure why they changed them. Maybe it was to make up for the reduced shot limit due to the potential presence of a second player putting the game at risk of hitting the sprite limit, but I don't know. I highly recommend using autofire for this game at first, especially because the game is like an hour long. It makes more of a difference against bosses than it does during the stages. Once you get used to it, then try it without auto.

Oh i've had the really bad idea to try the S-Tribute Demo of RayForce...is uncontrollable, looks like i'm drunken...a shame because the game looks cool and is technical impressive!.
Are the other S-Tribute the same? I understand why Steven advised against it....

I heard that was one of the better ones, so if you can detect it, you might be sensitive to input lag, or at least more sensitive than I am. If you want to play that one, get Ray'z Arcade Chronology instead, but you should know that the arcade game RayForce is significantly more difficult than the Saturn version Layer Section is. I personally find RayForce to easily be more difficult than Kyuukyoku Tiger.

Those S-Tribute games are very inconsistent. Cotton and Guardian Force were the really bad ones, and I heard that Metal Black and Elevator Action Returns are both good.

So...i think that is the time for my first M2 game , but which one? what is their finest work? (and don't tell me "ALL" XD).
Im morally torn between Irem Collections (All Volumes, also if the devs are "unknown) and Darius Cozmic Collection (Arcade + G-Darius) also if i have DariusBurst:CS.... i have the feeling that i'm missing some real SHMUPS milestones.
Open to alternatives !!!

Get Aleste Collection (specifically for GG Aleste 3), Kyuukyoku Tiger-Heli, Hishou Same! Same! Same!, Ray'z, or Battle Garegga.

[cfx]

I also really like Mahou Daisakusen. The weapons and powerup system are very Compile like; it's almost feels like an Aleste game to me. It's had no other port other than on a Japanese PC.

[Steven]

I wanted to mention Mahou Daisakusen, but since it's the only one that's both Japan-only and digital-only, it's possibly the hardest one of all of them to get.