Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

[Lemnear]

Before embarking in the Aleste Collection, what exactly do the "Aleste Challenges" involve?

It's just training mode.

Just that? are not "Challenges" like 1 CC every game in every difficulty etc.? ty!

However, the only SHMUPS "genres" which the developers talk about are Arcade and Console, and apart from the general lower difficulty of console shmups (not in every case) and the fact that you cant insert coins in your console (not yet), what are the real differences? conceptually at this point.
I've read an article where Kujo Kazuma regrets to have thought to much about the "console" aspect of his games (R-Type Delta, R-Type Final 2), but he didn't mention which those aspects are.

[Nugs]

To the ones using an arcade stick: what's your usual button layout and why?

[1][2][3][4]
[5][6][7][8]

Mine is:

1: Shot
2: Full auto
5: Bomb

As soon as a third button (like the mode switching in Espgaluda) comes in to play I don't really have a gameplan. I put it on 3, I put it on 6, I'm never really comfortable with it...

I do the same.

[cfx]

To the ones using an arcade stick: what's your usual button layout and why?

[1][2][3][4]
[5][6][7][8]

Mine is:

1: Shot
2: Full auto
5: Bomb

As soon as a third button (like the mode switching in Espgaluda) comes in to play I don't really have a gameplan. I put it on 3, I put it on 6, I'm never really comfortable with it...

Unless more than four buttons are used, I put everything on the bottom row, [5][6][7][8] so I don't have to move my hand to hit anything with one finger per button. I use the bottom row so that I don't have another row of buttons in the way. Would use whatever the arcade or default layout is but would typically want whatver the primary function is on 5, so that would typically be shot. In your example, if there is also a auto/rapid fire, it would be 1: shot, 2: bomb, 3: autofire because shot and bomb are the primary functions so I want them adjacent.

The term bullet hell or whatever you want to call it was created by the players, not the developers. To the devs at the time, there was no such thing as bullet hell, just shooting games, with DoDonPachi, R-Type, Strikers, and everything else simply classified by the developers as shooting games. It's all the same shit if you really think about it.

Capcom did refer to bullet hell and had some kind of icon for it in their magazine advertisements for Dreamcast Mars Matrix, I think it was. Could've possibly been Giga Wing 2 but I think it was MM.

[Bassa-Bassa]

I may be wrong, but 1944 being part of that STG genre revival Capcom wanted those years

I think I saw something about this as well, and I think Progear might have also been a part of the project. I don't remember where I saw this, though. Too bad Loop Master never got released on the Dreamcast or whatever, but it's on the MiSTer now, and that's good enough for me.

Progear was indeed part of the project. Gunspike and the DC version of Gunbird 2 from Psikyo also were. Other than Taito and Konami for obvious reasons, basically all the relevant STG developers still active took part in the silent campaign. A shame it was a bit too late for Seibu, it seems - we could have got yet another swang song from them.

The campaign was not so silent after all. A friend of mine reminded me this weekend that it even got a name and a logo with Mars Matrix:

[MJR]

The term bullet hell or whatever you want to call it was created by the players, not the developers. To the devs at the time, there was no such thing as bullet hell, just shooting games, with DoDonPachi, R-Type, Strikers, and everything else simply classified by the developers as shooting games. It's all the same shit if you really think about it.

Capcom did refer to bullet hell and had some kind of icon for it in their magazine advertisements for Dreamcast Mars Matrix, I think it was. Could've possibly been Giga Wing 2 but I think it was MM.

"Capcom did refer" is definitely not the same as developers talking, especially on company the size of Capcom. What you see on advertisements is what Capcom's marketing department talks. Whether the actual Capcom devs mentioned phrase "bullet hell" in any interviews is another matter entirely.

[BurlyHeart]

To the ones using an arcade stick: what's your usual button layout and why?

[1][2][3][4]
[5][6][7][8]

Interesting to see the responses to this.

Previously, I put auto on [5]; shot on [1] and bomb on [2]. I would just rest my thumb on [5], but these days I simply use [5] [6] [7] for auto-bomb-shot/other as my ring finger is stronger and it allows my wrist to rest more comfortably.

For run n guns / platformers, I usually have [5] jump; [1] auto, [2] grenade / special.

[cfx]

The term bullet hell or whatever you want to call it was created by the players, not the developers. To the devs at the time, there was no such thing as bullet hell, just shooting games, with DoDonPachi, R-Type, Strikers, and everything else simply classified by the developers as shooting games. It's all the same shit if you really think about it.

Capcom did refer to bullet hell and had some kind of icon for it in their magazine advertisements for Dreamcast Mars Matrix, I think it was. Could've possibly been Giga Wing 2 but I think it was MM.

"Capcom did refer" is definitely not the same as developers talking, especially on company the size of Capcom. What you see on advertisements is what Capcom's marketing department talks. Whether the actual Capcom devs mentioned phrase "bullet hell" in any interviews is another matter entirely.

Ok? I shared a bit of additional information I happened to know. I don't think that warranted this overly aggressive tone from you.

[Lander]

To the ones using an arcade stick: what's your usual button layout and why?

[1][2][3][4]
[5][6][7][8]

[1] Shot
[2] Bomb
[3] Full Auto
[5] Game-specific misc

It's interesting to see other folks priotizing the bottom row for their primary buttons; guess I hadn't thought about it too hard, but top row always seemed natural after cutting my teeth on fighting games; slightly less effort to contract the fingers for an off-row press.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

To the ones using an arcade stick: what's your usual button layout and why?

[1][2][3][4]
[5][6][7][8]

My personal preference (before I'd played in an arcade and knew the "standard" layout) was:

[1] Rapid Shot
[2] Shot/Laser
[3] Bomb
[4] Special Ability (Kakusei, Hyper, etc)

The justification being you hold your index finger down most of the time so it's the most comfortable I think? I've since adjusted to the standard CAVE style arcade layout where your ring finger is rapid, middle is bomb, index is shot/laser.

CAVE actually does have a few games that let you tweak where the rapid button is. In Espgaluda, holding button 3 or 4 causes the Rapid Button and Bomb button to be swapped, and you can select where the Rapid Button is in DFK and Esp2 for people who like Rapid Shot on the thumb. Some other more modern games actually have a full customization menu, like I think Rolling Gunner's arcade release lets you fully customize where the 3 buttons are? So if you prefer a different layout, you could require your arcade cab if you wanted.

[Lemnear]

How many "Clones" there are out there? and what are the most copied games?
I know few like 1945K III and Mad Shark.

[Bassa-Bassa]

I guess you mean aside of Space Invaders.

[Steven]

There is a game made by Comad called Gulf War II. You should go play it! It's a clone of a certain shooting game that I like and it's pretty cool. It has a rad soundtrack and the best stage clear jingle ever made.

[Klatrymadon]

I didn't want to dredge up some aeons-old thread for this, but how does controller reconfiguration work in Otomedius G on the 360? I've found the screen for the arcade mode settings, and the choices I've made seem to have been saved correctly (they're still there if I leave the menu and come back to it), but when I start the game the controls have reverted to default settings. I'm using an unmodded Madcatz TE at the moment, which has a standard Xbox 360 layout, so everything should be fine...

[MJR]

Capcom did refer to bullet hell and had some kind of icon for it in their magazine advertisements for Dreamcast Mars Matrix, I think it was. Could've possibly been Giga Wing 2 but I think it was MM.

"Capcom did refer" is definitely not the same as developers talking, especially on company the size of Capcom. What you see on advertisements is what Capcom's marketing department talks. Whether the actual Capcom devs mentioned phrase "bullet hell" in any interviews is another matter entirely.

Ok? I shared a bit of additional information I happened to know. I don't think that warranted this overly aggressive tone from you.

You are projecting. There was nothing aggressive in my post

[Lemnear]

I guess you mean aside of Space Invaders.

Ahahahaha
no no i mean lesser games that were obviously overshadowed by their original inspirer (is this Gulf War II an example? it looks and sounds horrible for me compared to the "original"
D: ), or clones that somehow became successfull.

However, there are difference between the Psikyo Shooting Collections and the individual games on PSN/XBOX ?

[Bassa-Bassa]

I was not kidding, though. Space Invaders was literally cloned by every other developer from those years, and even several times.

[Lemnear]

I was not kidding, though. Space Invaders was literally cloned by every other developer from those years, and even several times.

well it was the first, and the only one, there weren't so many other inspirations
but...after Space Invaders? who was the most cloned and influential? and after that, who? (and so on).

Thank to BulletMagnet for this article: https://www.racketboy.com/retro/shmups- ... d-shooters

I would just need a little more "chronological order" of the facts, the teams, the influences, the evolution

[Steven]

Namiki said that Hishouzame is the single best and most important vertical shooting game of all time on Twitter before he deleted his old account, so if you want influential, play that.

[Lemnear]

Namiki said that Hishouzame is the single best and most important vertical shooting game of all time on Twitter before he deleted his old account, so if you want influential, play that.

Hishouzame. Cool to know. I like how the SHMUPS history is so well documented.
Many developers have mentioned Image Fight as a source of inspirations. [Hiroshi Iuchi, Tomonobu Itagaki, Kujo Kazuma]

But after the 1985/1987 Toaplan period (tons of helicopter cloned games) and Irem 1987/1988 (lots of Pods clones), i have a hole in the early nineties, untill Batsugun (1993) arrived as the proto-danmaku, then DonPachi/DoDonPachi and all its famous clones... almost all "modern" SMHUPS are CAVEish, with few exceptions.

[Steven]

Many developers have mentioned Image Fight as a source of inspirations. [Hiroshi Iuchi, Tomonobu Itagaki, Kujo Kazuma]

Image Fight is fucking awesome. Of course, it's Irem, and that's basically normal for them. The second loop is terrifyingly difficult... but, once again, it's Irem, and that's basically normal for them. You can and should buy it on ACA if you don't have it already. Make sure you don't go to the dreaded penalty zone~

[Lemnear]

Many developers have mentioned Image Fight as a source of inspirations. [Hiroshi Iuchi, Tomonobu Itagaki, Kujo Kazuma]

Image Fight is fucking awesome. Of course, it's Irem, and that's basically normal for them. The second loop is terrifyingly difficult... but, once again, it's Irem, and that's basically normal for them. You can and should buy it on ACA if you don't have it already. Make sure you don't go to the dreaded penalty zone~

Is in list, but as one of the last in the "Must Have", cuz of it's difficulty.


so the evolution roadmap ended with something like:

START:
Space Invaders (Taito 1987)
Xevious (Namco 1982)
1942 (Capcom 1984) [maybe]
Gradius (Konami 1985) [maybe]
Tiger-Heli & Co. (Toaplan 1985-87)
R-Type (Irem 1987)
Image Fight (Irem 1988)
Raiden (Seibu Kaihatsu 1990) [maybe]
??? (??? 1991)
??? (??? 1992)
Batsugun (Toaplan 1993)
??? (??? 1994)
DonPachi/DoDonpachi (1995-1997).
CAVE-Games//CAVE-Clones (199X-2023).

The END

[Steven]

You missed Slap Fight and V-V. Now that the new IKD interview is out and he was like "fuck yeah Slap Fight~!!!", nobody can deny its importance, significance, and awesomeness anymore. I predict or at least hope for a global increase in Slap Fight's popularity, but never forget that I loved Slap Fight before it was cool to do so~

Also Battle Garegga. IKD made DDP because he thought Garegga was an absolutely incredible game and that he could never make a game that good, but he could do something else instead: have a shitload of bullets! I don't remember where I found this info, but it's out there somewhere.

[Lemnear]

You missed Slap Fight and V-V. Now that the new IKD interview is out and he was like "fuck yeah Slap Fight~!!!", nobody can deny its importance, significance, and awesomeness anymore. I predict or at least hope for a global increase in Slap Fight's popularity, but never forget that I loved Slap Fight before it was cool to do so~

Also Battle Garegga. IKD made DDP because he thought Garegga was an absolutely incredible game and that he could never make a game that good, but he could do something else instead: have a shitload of bullets! I don't remember where I found this info, but it's out there somewhere.

Take it like "SHMUPS Anthropology".

In what way V-V was r/evolutionary, and other developers copied it?
Is Slap Fight different from their previous games?

Is Darius considerable a "Stylish Clone of Gradius" ?
It evolved the SHMUPS aesthetically an musically (later), the Warning Screen! bosses design, the triple screen.
Elevating "The Experience", not the in terms of gameplay, but in spectacularity.
Similar to how Sony makes AAA/AAAA games, cinematographic experience, but in the SHMUPS genre, especially from Darius Gaiden ownwards.

[Bassa-Bassa]

so the evolution roadmap ended with something like:

It's hard not to mention Scramble and even Cobra when listing Gradius. And Sega's Bomber predates even Space Invaders, when talking about horizontal shooters. Just as an example. You're trying something quite difficult at that, mind. The genre, with its many branches, is not as much about one-off milestones as it is about gradual evolution where every developer kept an eye on as many previous games as he could, even if he'll just mention this one or that other in an interview. There're obviously lots of titles that just didn't try anything new (or tried, but failed) since there isn't a genre as populated as this, but at the same time there're many as well which served as a model, even for stuff which may look like little details but actually aren't.

[Lethe]

Saying Cave clones are the end of anthropology is like saying 1945 was the end of history. After the stages were set by the early giants the genre has always been evolutionary over revolutionary. There were lots of weird innovative developers around when the commercial side of the genre was collapsing (Takumi, Treasure, Alfa etc). The influence of those late archetypes can be commonly found in the doujin sphere which has been the site of most innovation since the later 2000s.

[Steven]

Scramble is really cool. I love that game. RayForce should probably be there too.

In what way V-V was r/evolutionary, and other developers copied it?
Is Slap Fight different from their previous games?

V-V was the first game made in IKD's style. Batsugun was more Iwakura than it was IKD. Everyone loves IKD, right? I guess he's a cool and nice dude, judging by what people that I know that know him have said about him. Everyone seems to love his games and his style, but V-V is more of his thing than Batsugun is.

Spoiler

V-V is a better and cooler game, too

Slap Fight is totally different from the previous Toaplan shooters, which consisted of Tiger-Heli and... nothing. V-V was thought for years to maybe be only a spiritual successor sequel to Slap Fight, but in that interview IKD just outright said that yes, it is the sequel to Slap Fight. Slap Fight had that sort of secret-finding thing that Radiant Silvergun has with the Dog Finder weapon but did it over a decade earlier and for its time has a large amount of enemy shots. It's the easiest Toaplan game by far (yes, it's significantly easier than Vimana), but once you clear a few loops, those enemy shots become extremely fast. So yeah, Slap Fight is one of the direct ancestors to what is now referred to as bullet hell considering what eventually came about due to Slap Fight's existence. Slap Fight itself was heavily influenced by Yuge's love of both Xevious and Gradius.

[Lemnear]

so the evolution roadmap ended with something like:

It's hard not to mention Scramble and even Cobra when listing Gradius. And Sega's Bomber predates even Space Invaders, when talking about horizontal shooters. Just as an example. You're trying something quite difficult at that, mind. The genre, with its many branches, is not as much about one-off milestones as it is about gradual evolution where every developer kept an eye on as many previous games as he could, even if he'll just mention this one or that other in an interview. There're obviously lots of titles that just didn't try anything new (or tried, but failed) since there isn't a genre as populated as this, but at the same time there're many as well which served as a model, even for stuff which may look like little details but actually aren't.

It's the first time i've read those titles...and Sega's Bomber looks pretty awesome for a 1977 game!

Yes for this i want a more "ordered map", because why do i play a game, i wonder "why is made in that way?" What are the reasons?
And i like the race among developers to reach the pinnacle and beat their contemporaries, or try to create something new to stand out from the crowd.
So if is gradual, i'm missing some parts of my puzzle.
Who contributed the most in terms of evolution?
What were the highest-grossing games that inspired others to copy them? and mostly, WHY they were best sellers?
This. Year by year, till now, should i make a scheme...but i'm already doing a table about another argument.

Saying Cave clones are the end of anthropology is like saying 1945 was the end of history. After the stages were set by the early giants the genre has always been evolutionary over revolutionary. There were lots of weird innovative developers around when the commercial side of the genre was collapsing (Takumi, Treasure, Alfa etc). The influence of those late archetypes can be commonly found in the doujin sphere which has been the site of most innovation since the later 2000s.

But Takumi's games aren't CAVEfish games with a twist on the gameplay?
The most successful (and iconic) is for sure the shield in Giga Wing.

Treasure can't be imitated, their vision is too unique and conceptually high. Are the phylosophers of the SHMUPS developers (IMO).

Was Battle Garegga the first with a Rank System?
Or is "simply" the most complex Rank System ever? (probably one of the highest achievements ever achivied in the SHMUPS genre).

Scramble is really cool. I love that game. RayForce should probably be there too.

In what way V-V was r/evolutionary, and other developers copied it?
Is Slap Fight different from their previous games?

V-V was the first game made in IKD's style. Batsugun was more Iwakura than it was IKD. Everyone loves IKD, right? I guess he's a cool and nice dude, judging by what people that I know that know him have said about him. Everyone seems to love his games and his style, but V-V is more of his thing than Batsugun is.

Spoiler

V-V is a better and cooler game, too

Slap Fight is totally different from the previous Toaplan shooters, which consisted of Tiger-Heli and... nothing. V-V was thought for years to maybe be only a spiritual successor sequel to Slap Fight, but in that interview IKD just outright said that yes, it is the sequel to Slap Fight. Slap Fight had that sort of secret-finding thing that Radiant Silvergun has with the Dog Finder weapon but did it over a decade earlier and for its time has a large amount of enemy shots. It's the easiest Toaplan game by far (yes, it's significantly easier than Vimana), but once you clear a few loops, those enemy shots become extremely fast. So yeah, Slap Fight is one of the direct ancestors to what is now referred to as bullet hell considering what eventually came about due to Slap Fight's existence.

RayForce is technically incredible for a 1993 game, was tempted to thrown it in...but RayForce only evolved Xevious "Dual Layer" field , and then the branch ended with just a trilogy (maybe, there are RayForce clones? of its era or later).

I also like this "authorialism" of the SHMUPS.
Modern games are made by too many peoples to feel the "signature" of a specific mind, with specific intentions and a specific game vision.

[Lethe]

But Takumi's games aren't CAVEfish games with a twist on the gameplay?

Garegga is just Gun Frontier with autofire. RayForce is just Xevious with lock-ons, but for some reason 98% of post-RF games with reticles are referencing the Ray series and not Xevious.

Was Battle Garegga the first with a Rank System? Or is "simply" the most complex Rank System ever?

Definitely not. Zanac (86/87) is one of the best-known early granular rank systems. That whole thread is great reading BTW, goes towards the point of how iterative everything is and how developers pull ideas from everywhere.

Treasure can't be imitated, their vision is too unique and conceptually high. Are the phylosophers of the SHMUPS developers (IMO).
(Garegga rank) [...] probably one of the highest achievements ever achivied in the SHMUPS genre

You say this, like so many other people, but why are any of those things true?
Garegga rank existed to make the game unfair so players put more coins in, it's everything else about the game that motivated so much investigation. It's basically dumb luck that it took on a life of its own. The later Garegga revisions even change the mechanics to make exploiting rank obnoxious and force you to play "properly" - bad extend rate or no extends, can't mess with the autofire, can't control your options - nobody plays them.

Darius Gaiden, before Garegga, has a rank system that's somewhat comparable in complexity, is way more conscientiously designed, and has more in common with the score/rank balancing systems which have become a genre staple. Batrider after has the properly fixed Garegga system that works out similarly, excepting its stupid boot rank thing. But nobody can deny that Garegga is massively influential, despite nobody wanting to clone its supposedly most defining aspect. Maybe that wasn't the important part of it after all.

[Bassa-Bassa]

Check also Daioh's Oyaji System for a complex and nasty rank feature previous to Garegga and even Darius Gaiden.

But I also disagree that rank is an achievement as there are many other better ways to add difficulty to your game than being dishonest with the player. Something that Treasure in particular can be proud of, by the way.

[DGR114]

To the ones using an arcade stick: what's your usual button layout and why?

[1][2][3][4]
[5][6][7][8]

Mine is:

1: Shot
2: Full auto
5: Bomb

As soon as a third button (like the mode switching in Espgaluda) comes in to play I don't really have a gameplan. I put it on 3, I put it on 6, I'm never really comfortable with it...

5: Shot
1:Bomb
2: Full Auto
I like mimicking the layout that Donpachi series cabinets use. It feels nice bc my stick feels a bit cramped and I can have my fingers over all the buttons.