The Super Famicom / Super NES Thread

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

Sounds like a slur, explain.

Sorry, it's just that your ramblings about UK brought to mind that infamous God Hand review. I'm sure you'll figure out on your own just how wrong you on the gameplay, but I'm still a bit dumbfounded by your expectations set for the presentation. The level design is godlike and I don't think you could ask for any more than that. Even then, it could have been a lot worse than you think it is.

[BIL]

Ugh. It just hit me that while FF Tough got relegated to the SFC, it was fucking Final Fight Revenge that was on Saturn/STV and in 3D. GAHHHH! Talk about a cruel world... it's like the stars alligned just to take a massive taco shit on beat 'em up fans.

[Skykid]

Sounds like a slur, explain.

Sorry, it's just that your ramblings about UK brought to mind that infamous God Hand review. I'm sure you'll figure out on your own just how wrong you on the gameplay, but I'm still a bit dumbfounded by your expectations set for the presentation. The level design is godlike and I don't think you could ask for any more than that. Even then, it could have been a lot worse than you think it is.

I can't critically assess anything except the presentation because I don't feel I've understood what makes the game so popular - which is why I asked for info here, and got it.
As MX7 explained, it doesn't come to fruition until many hours have been sunk into mastering all aspects of its core mechanic, so I think first impressions are fair game tbh.

[Marble]

If the game isn't fun until you master the game's 'core mechanic' then it's simply a shit game and anyone who spends hours not having fun in order to eventually enjoy a game is a complete mong. MX7 talks about the complexity when going for the fastest time possible and all that, but just about any game can be played at a really high level if you wanna make it about shaving milliseconds off the clock. Likewise, the idea that it's the 'ultimate sandbox' game because 'there's no prescribed way to play it' is stupid because again it can be said for pretty much every game ever. Unless there's some game out there where you have to follow a pixel perfect path and any deviation causes the game to end. The only thing holding you back is your skill? Wow, I can't think of any other fuckin' game where that's the case. Anyway, 'detailed review' my arse, it's just a bunch of generic shit that can be applied to any good game. lol.

Not commenting on the quality of Umihara Kawase by the way, just that of MX7 and skykid's posts.

[trap15]

If the game isn't fun until you master the game's 'core mechanic' then it's simply a shit game and anyone who spends hours not having fun in order to eventually enjoy a game is a complete mong.

I disagree! If you know there's fun to be had once you understand a core mechanic, and you don't mind taking the time to figure it out, I don't see how it's a waste of time, or how it makes the game shit. It's just a matter of "Am I dedicated enough to want to like this game?"

However, if you don't like it and don't feel like the core mechanic makes it any better, then maybe it is shit (or you just don't like it, whatever).

[Skykid]

If the game isn't fun until you master the game's 'core mechanic' then it's simply a shit game and anyone who spends hours not having fun in order to eventually enjoy a game is a complete mong. MX7 talks about the complexity when going for the fastest time possible and all that, but just about any game can be played at a really high level if you wanna make it about shaving milliseconds off the clock. Likewise, the idea that it's the 'ultimate sandbox' game because 'there's no prescribed way to play it' is stupid because again it can be said for pretty much every game ever. Unless there's some game out there where you have to follow a pixel perfect path and any deviation causes the game to end. The only thing holding you back is your skill? Wow, I can't think of any other fuckin' game where that's the case. Anyway, 'detailed review' my arse, it's just a bunch of generic shit that can be applied to any good game. lol.

Hello newcomer!

I get where you're coming from, since there's an argument for accessibility in gaming that suggests having fun from the outset is a prerequisite condition. However, I disagree that that's an all-encompassing deal. Certain games only genuinely blossom after you develop an understanding of the core mechanics - shmups are a very good example. I disliked them for kicking my ass until I persevered enough to get a feel for how they work and learned2dodge, and fighting games don't really start giving until you establish a few characteristic rules of play.

Those two are weak examples, however, since they're fun, to a degree, even if you don't know what you're doing. UK falls into the same turn off category as Assault Suits Leynos, which although I only had 4 - 5 goes on before handing the cart over to my Brother, I'm assured as to its excellence by BIL, who has impeccable taste.

Also, since I know MX7 personally, as a gamer who knows his stuff and a studious fellow of unquestionable intelligence, I'm perfectly willing to accept his comparison between learning UK and the intricacies of an STG. Also, UK's ports speak for themselves regarding its popularity.

I just won't waver on initial impressions being far from glowing and instant, or accept anyone suggesting I write for IGN (any more of that and you get both barrels!) for making mention of them.

[Marble]

Yeah I don't really like your example with STGs and FTGs there. If I don't enjoy a game from the get-go then I'm not going to pursue it. For example my favourite FTG is SFIII:3S and appreciate the strategy you can only understand with a depressingly large amount of time spent, but even when I was first starting and didn't know shit about it I really liked the animations, the physics in general, the feeling of impact, the feeling of negating an attack with a parry etc. etc. which are what made me want to continue to play. Even though my appreciation grew with my skill, I didn't just go 'well I heard this game was fun once you get good' and push through something I didn't enjoy, which I still think is retarded.

I'm reiterating that I've actually mentioned nothing on UK's quality. I've never even played the game. It could be excellent for all I know, but if so it sure as hell won't be for any of the 'reasons' MX7 posted.

[Hagane]

You are looking too much into it. He just said that the game has a learning curve that must be overcome to truly realize all the cool stuff you can do in the game. Which is mostly what happens with all the best games; its true genius will not be apparent to someone who happens to play it for the first time.

[Skykid]

Which is mostly what happens with all the best games; its true genius will not be apparent to someone who happens to play it for the first time.

I agree, although I would say that occasionally you can spot genius from the off (if you've developed a good nose for the medium) even without having learned the intricacies.

Even though my appreciation grew with my skill, I didn't just go 'well I heard this game was fun once you get good' and push through something I didn't enjoy, which I still think is retarded.

I understand and agree with everything you're saying, I'm just making the point that UK probably falls into a slightly rarer category, where at face value - for the first 40 minutes even - it comes off as little to write home about. That doesn't mean it's a bad game, it just means it requires more perseverance than the norm to begin to exploit, understand and see blossom into something very rewarding. That's the way I translated MX7's diagnosis, anyway.

(I just hated that tadpole really...)

[Bloodreign]

Games I love on the SNES/SFC:

Doremi Fantasy - I don't think I've seen it mentioned once here, shame.
Yoshi's Island - this one didn't grow on me till years later, couldn't stand it at first.
Super Castlevania IV - it was one of my first SNES games, too easy though.
Contra 3 - till Contra HC appeared on Genesis, I thought this one was the best paced Contra title, not these days.
Cameltry - move maze to accommodate marble, brilliant idea from Taito.
both Kiki Kaikais (Pocky and Rocky, never cared for that name) - good fast paced run and guns, spiritual successors to the original Taito arcade game.
Arkanoid: Doh It Again : great Arkanoid game, 99 levels ensures you play awhile.
Pop N Twinbee: Yeah I just love Twinbee.
Gradius 3: sure it's slowdown riddled, and stuff was removed, still solid.
Parodius Da! - SFC version is remarkably nice, includes an extra stage not found in the arcade version, plus Omake goodness.
Hammering Harry - I forget the Japanese name, Irem did alright by these, originally an arcade game seemed to blossom on home systems.
R-Type III - everyone here should know how good this one is by now.
Axelay - other than the silly overhead stages, the hori stages are nice. Never did get our promised sequel though.
Zelda: ALttP - it's Zelda, and quite good.
Final Fantasy 3/6 - this one had an epic story and there was much to do in the game, had quite the insane final boss too. *Kefka laugh*

I could go on, but I'll stop here.

[shmuppyLove]

Big Sky Trooper

yup

[BIL]

Hellll yeah. Figured out what the Ninja (of "Warriors Again")'s hover->spin move is for. Didn't realise you could modify it with the d-pad. Hold up for an anti-air; hold down for a steeply diving forward charge. The latter is extremely useful in later stages - how'd I ever get by without it? Fast, invincible and no recovery time; holding the attack button will have the character go into a block instantly after. Balanced by the need to be out of attack range during startup, or you'll get smacked out of the air by even the lowliest of thugs.

Making it to Operation 7 regularly now, that Dhalsim asshole in the cyber-mankini is my current target. I should really be playing Normal to get back up to speed, but I can't resist the higher difficulty level and its demand for total concentration. A model of "merciless but fair" intensity.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Big Sky Trooper

If the quality of it is nowhere near Metal Warriors, I'm interested. 16-bit generation consoles certainly have more American games I can name than the 8-bit one had (more playable than Earthworm Jim too).

[greg]

Battle Cross is a super fun multi-tap game to play. It is reminiscent of Atari's Super Sprint, or more appropriately, the followup game Badlands in which you can gain weapons to bother the other racers on the track. In Battle Cross, the racers are on futuristic hoverbikes and powerups will grant mines, shots, smartbombs, rockets, nitros, and other ways to slow down and confuse opponents.

It's a super fun game to play with friends. Here's a review for it on my SFC site.

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

Contributing a game I discovered recently: Little Magic. Cute block pushing puzzle game where you push select to murder yourself. (there aren't any hazards that can directly harm you you see.) There are at least 100 levels and it's really easy for the most part, but it's a charming game nonetheless. Also on GBC, though I'm not sure if it's a direct port or a sequel.

[Damocles]

I really, really want to play "Stealth" for the SFC. Unfortunately, it's JP only and a translation has not been released.

[louisg]

I had no idea about Battle Cross. This looks like my cup of tea!

[BIL]

Recently finished a first play of Ganbare Goemon 3; really liked it. Strictly speaking it's merely a competent Zelda II "overworld -> sidescrolling dungeon -> get tool and repeat" imitation, but the lavish 16-bit production, unmistakably quality engine and some decently thoughtful dungeons put it well above knockoff status. Took some minor FAQ guidance getting from A to B, but the dungeons themselves are entirely self-explanatory and quite involving. Smacking and slashing enemies is also a *very* satisfying diversion, in a Dracula X Nocturne kind of way, with punchy sfx and detailed death animations... speaking of which, check out the Royal Chapel's scaling clouds effect towards the end of the first dungeon!

Worth a play if you have a soft spot for high-production 2D games of a cutesier bent and don't mind unwinding with a milder action RPG now and then (it's most definitely not as difficult as Zelda II). Bonus points if, like me, you're a longtime Konami fan who'll squeee at "Poison of Snake" erupting during a boss battle.

[Dragoforce]

I've always enjoyed New Horizons. It's basically Pirates! for Snes, but with a bit more focus on exploration.

[Ed Oscuro]

damn but Run Saber is tougher than I remembered

I'm not sure if it's a lack of attention on my part, or whether the game's control moveset is not totally polished that causes me to have some trouble with it, though. Some of the boss fights devolve into jumping or ducking repeatedly while mashing the slash button. There is a drop kick but it's not very easy to use and it doesn't seem to do enough damage to be worthwhile, either.

Pretty good production values, although it's unfortunate the last batch of levels are mainly pretty ugly and more or less routine (everything after the Hong Kong city knockoff basically). Also a damn shame about the box art. Still, I can definitely say the game itself is a better Strider knockoff than the cover is a Vallejo / Frazetta.

I would be tempted to write something similar about Operation Logic Bomb (the totally generic cover invalidates any need for deep thought in that area; I don't recall what the JPN original looks like).

[BIL]

I was trying to get into Logic Bomb (actually the JP ver Ikari no Yousai) a few months back... dug the engine's feel, the strafing and guns, and the action RPG + shooter angle, but a couple of things put me off. The first might've just been my inexperience, but it seemed like the first boss's patterns weren't meant to be dodged, with the massive lifebar picking up the slack. Like I say that might've been my fault... I did go back and try to kill it without taking any hits, but can't recall getting any satisfaction. Didn't give me much confidence in the shooting.

The second issue, though, hoo boy. Those fucking cutscenes, or rather the inability to skip them (?). I can just about stomach Zelda and Goemon's intermittent unskippables, but this was like getting batted in the face with one every time I opened a treasure chest. Really made me close teh ROM, that did.

[TransatlanticFoe]

It's the same for the other bosses (except the final boss, which seems brutal until you find the safe spot). Your character is too sluggish and the attacks come out too quickly and unpredictably to dodge, so not losing much life during the stages is required (or at least getting to the life top-up consoles). The first boss is really easy though! You just whip out the flamethrower and he's done in a few seconds, even if he does get a couple of hits in. The next boss is obscene (random bouncing spreadshots in a confined area, yay!) but like the others, doesn't take all that many hits to kill.

The cutscenes are dumb though - irritating music coupled with general vibe of WTF is going on. Oh it's showing me I need to step on that pad - the one that's now obviously glowing. Durrrr.

[BIL]

Oh yeah, the killing of the boss itself was no issue - it was more the harbinger of shitty game design in its patterns that worried me, especially given its fairly elaborate introduction via the slow freight elevator descent into its lair (which would've been a neat moment in a proper action game).

[TransatlanticFoe]

Mode 7 showing off, as per standard for SNES games of its time. It doesn't do it again

Brace yourself for the next boss, because he took me ages to get past with his daft unavoidable attacks. You're right though - the lifebar is basically for the bosses. It's a shame they screwed up the balance so badly.

[BrianC]

How does the Operation Logic Bomb compare to its GB counterparts (Fortified Zone and Ikari no Yousai 2)? I had Fortified Zone and remember liking it. I remember the male character being sluggish, but having more powerful weapons, and the female character having only one weapon, but with the ability to jump and faster speed, making it easier to dodge attacks.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Also, how do The Chaos Engine console ports (a.k.a. Soldiers of Fortune) compare to the original game? I guess the Amiga sound is peerless.

[BIL]

Aaand I'm done trying to like Dracula XX. Soft target, I know, but I've never had a problem with it being an ugly, charmless Rondo hack. Spent the weekend getting good enough to one-life it and Rondo again, and only playing them in parallel do I realise XX's a sham to the core. I used to think it at least offered a mean no-frills challenge ala Metal Slug 4, but XX only seems harder due to the minuscule post-hit recovery period and sluggish walking speed. Besides being a vastly more entertaining production overall, Rondo's actually the tougher game to survive on a life with longer, more hazardous stages, more intense boss battles and a surprisingly unforgiving damage scale allowing even pest-type enemies to wear a sloppy player down. It's not like Rondo is even that hard a game, but it certainly has the substance to kill the unwary without relying on cheap shots like cement boots and juggle-happy damage recovery windows. XX's clock tower is quality Dracula stage design, otherwise it's all battling against the drudgery of its inexplicably hamstrung controls. X68k does 16-bit FC-style Dracula better and consistently, play that instead.

The last nail in the coffin was realising Richter's XX walking speed is hideously comparable to how he moves in Rondo's prologue stage. You know, the bit where you struggle to advance against a constantly-buffeting wind blast while battling Death aboard a speeding horse carriage. It's as if whoever handled the SFC game's engine was given a perfect conversion of Rondo's controls, read on his favourite BBS that "Castlevania has bad controls :[ " and proceeded to chop the walking speed in half. While doubling the animation cycle speed. Job done! Soul-destroying. It's almost like that first GB game.

Can't really complain about the Dracula games' showing in the 16-bit years with four unique titles across four systems between '91-'94, but considering the quality of the fourth SFC Goemon game it really blows that a Dracula released in the same year turned out like this. Total cash-in.

I still love the boxart, though.

[louisg]

Aaand I'm done trying to like Dracula XX. Soft target, I know, but I've never had a problem with it being an ugly, charmless Rondo hack.

This has kind of been my reaction with other Konami console-to-console ports, like Genesis Sunset Riders and Hyperstone Heist. I don't know about Drac XX, but with the others it's like they barely get the engine and existing content wedged in, quickly whip up some in-the-same-spirit-but-not-as-good levels, and call it a day. It's a shame-- all of these semi-ports would've been a pretty good opportunity for them to do something cool and interesting.

[Ed Oscuro]

Lethal Enforcers on SNES has a nice training mode. The game also isn't as hideous as the Genesis version (which may be technically playable but ughhh why would you do that to yourself).

[BIL]

This has kind of been my reaction with other Konami console-to-console ports, like Genesis Sunset Riders and Hyperstone Heist. I don't know about Drac XX, but with the others it's like they barely get the engine and existing content wedged in, quickly whip up some in-the-same-spirit-but-not-as-good levels, and call it a day.

XX definitely suffers from a half-hearted attempt at preserving Rondo's brilliant hybrid of linear and nonlinear action gaming. Rondo has two distinct paths you can crisscross throughout the game, and you're free to investigate cleared stages using Stage Select for more completion percentage. It's pure entertainment finding new stuff off the beaten track. I'm actually a bit annoyed at its direct sequel Nocturne in the Moonlight / SOTN now... it's a solid Metroid imitation with style to die for, but the open map ends up feeling vacant in comparison to Rondo's tightly-designed and always dangerous stages. Some balancing of space to content would've been nice. Regardless, XX has two routes: "GOOD END" and "ABJECT FAILURE." Want to see some of the latter's stages and bosses? Bend over for the bad ending! Dumb.

But really, the fatal flaw in XX is the horrendously sluggish walking speed. It's absolutely insane - the engine is accurate down to little quirks only an attentive Rondo player would notice, like the way Richter won't enter "moonwalk" mode no matter how early you hold the attack button in the air, only once he's made contact with the ground for the required instant. Or how air control is selectable based on whether you've held down the jump button. And then they go and make him move like the source character does when slogging through mud or battling against gales. Incredible.