Fudoh's ode to old display technology

[Bassa-Bassa]

Hm, I converted a SoC cable to SoL for use with my PAL-to-NTSC converted 3-chip SNES and it looks just fine both the FE1 & FE2

Mine is from Retro Gaming Cables UK, for what it's worth. Would need to check how my FE1 behaves with it, but with the FE2 (and a PS2), a slight color degradation is there for sure.

On the FE1 chassis subject, do you know if using TT15 (rotation test) and TT33 (rotation on/off) could help to solve a slight rotation the picture has (or even if they're safe lol)? No rotation option on the menu here otherwise for being 25'', I'm afraid.

[ASDR]

On the FE1 chassis subject, do you know if using TT15 (rotation test) and TT33 (rotation on/off) could help to solve a slight rotation the picture has (or even if they're safe lol)? No rotation option on the menu here otherwise for being 25'', I'm afraid.

I don't think any FE1 has a rotation coil? Never used these options on any set that has, wouldn't imagine they do anything but manipulate the normal user menu settings for the test or set it to zero for turning it off.

[H6rdc0re]

I recently moved and tried all my SD CRTs. Are there more people prefering the look of a Shadow Mask to an Aperture Grill?

[SuperSpongo]

I don't think any FE1 has a rotation coil?

KV-29X5D has one, I'm all but certain.

[Bassa-Bassa]

I don't think any FE1 has a rotation coil?

KV-29X5D has one, I'm all but certain.

Where'd that be located? I don't remember seeing it in my KV-25K5 but I'm not sure I really looked for it either.

[kamiboy]

I recently moved and tried all my SD CRTs. Are there more people prefering the look of a Shadow Mask to an Aperture Grill?

Honestly speaking I think for me the overall image quality of the set itself is a larger factor than the underlying technology. I like to say I prefer SONY's Aperture Grills, but the fact of the matter is that despite most of my sets being SONY's there is only one of them that hits the spot, which also unfortunately is only a 14", so most of my gaming takes place on a B&O CRT which I am pretty sure uses a Phillips shadow mask tube. It looks ok, but I have certainly seen much better. The biggest factors that excludes the other sets are, I think, wear and tear, and either TV lines or multi-sync capability. I am not sure if it is the higher TV lines or the fact that the sets I have that do have high TV lines also happen to be mulisync (they accept 480p as well etc.). But one of those two factors makes for an image quality which I do not like, the dark areas between scanlines are too thich which makes the image appear very harsh and not "CRT-like".

Unfortunately the only two really, really, amazing image quality examples I have seen so far have both been on very small screens (SONY PVM L2 and KV-14LM1E). So perhaps that is also a factor, but I cannot be sure, I need to see the bigger screen versions of those same sets, especially with as little wear and tear as possible. Not really realistic these days unfortunately.

I would trade all my sets for just two sets of at least 20" with that particular super pleasing image quality any day. Underlying technology doesn't matter, just has to support RGB input.

[SuperSpongo]

Where'd that be located? I don't remember seeing it in my KV-25K5 but I'm not sure I really looked for it either.

I'm not sure where it's located, but the X5D has a rotation feature, so it has to be somewhere ^^

[Bassa-Bassa]

Aren't a rotation coil (a pot) and a rotation feature (in the user/service menu) different ways to rotate the picture? My KV-25K5 doesn't have the latter, but I know that its 29-inch counterpart does, so I was wondering if it'd normally have a pot inside instead.

[MKL]

Aren't a rotation coil (a pot) and a rotation feature (in the user/service menu) different ways to rotate the picture? My KV-25K5 doesn't have the latter, but I know that its 29-inch counterpart does, so I was wondering if it'd normally have a pot inside instead.

There is only one way to rotate the picture and it's not done with a pot. A microcontroller on the main chassis outputs the signal but the circuit that drives the coil is on the same board that drives the VM (velocity modulation) coil but only the 29" models have the VM board and the rotation/VM coils. Different chassis (AE-4) support rotation even for the 25" models (e.g. KV-25K1).

[Josh128]

I recently moved and tried all my SD CRTs. Are there more people prefering the look of a Shadow Mask to an Aperture Grill?

I really, really like the look of a good slot/shadow mask set, but aperture grille sets best feature is brightness. On both types, focus, convergence, and color balance
are what really matters, IMO.

[ASDR]

I only have a single non-trinitron TV left at this point. I prefer the look of aperture grills. Also I only like flat screens and the trinitron curve. I don't like the fishbowl look of non-flat shadow mask tubes.

[Mikey]

Shadow mask for me.

[H6rdc0re]

Recently tried my two PVM-20L4s and looks about the same as my LG CX with Morph 4k. Both really look very artificial to me. I think my consumer sets look much more authentic with better black levels compared to the PVMs.

[nissling]

I think my consumer sets look much more authentic with better black levels compared to the PVMs.

The PVMs have fairly long warm-up time, much more so than the BVMs, so you'll usually have to wait for at least 30 minutes before it's somewhat stable.

Actual black level vary greatly depending on what is referred to. Actual black is only the lack of light and usually whenever I measure BVMs they end up with an on/off contrast ratio between 30,000-60,000:1 when white is set to 100 nits. And that difference is pretty much insignificant because at such levels there are far too many variables in how the final image is percieved to the viewer, not to mention the poor ANSI contrast of CRTs.

I do however notice that most Sony CRTs made from the mid 90s and onward have a steep EOTF curve in shadows. This can make it more difficult to set the black level properly without losing shadow detail. It's all too common that I see Sonys with too high brightness, especially those that have not been properly calibrated as the RGB cutoff has usually drifted far too much over the years.

The BVM A24/32 solved this by implementing a gamma option in the system config, with which you can chose to either have the same EOTF as the D series or simulate the older HDM monitors (which were much closer to a straight power law 2.4 curve). It's not perfect but I think it's the best they could do.

[spmbx]

I have a late model AKAI consumer tv that was in a guestroom, it had about 10 hours on it when i got it. It's geometry isn't perfect but honestly when playing games i don't notice and don't care. It's vibrant and looks great and has a modern menu with a remote, the only thing i dislike is it only has 1 scart input. I wouldn't trade it for a PVM with that's got 20k hours clocked, people are seriously way too obsessed with studio monitors and will buy shaggy old stuff for hundreds of euros when you can still (rarer though) pick up almost unused consumer sets for free. I really don't get it.

[nissling]

I wouldn't trade it for a PVM with that's got 20k hours clocked, people are seriously way too obsessed with studio monitors and will buy shaggy old stuff for hundreds of euros when you can still (rarer though) pick up almost unused consumer sets for free. I really don't get it.

While the hype is misleading (especially with people being so obsessed by resolution figures), professional grade gear do get a lot more fun when you actually take the time to get the accurate. There's no point in getting a Sony BVM without the knowledge to get it calibrated or have someone else do it for you.

I've played around with plenty of consumer sets and while I can often get them to display a fairly accurate greyscale, more times than not the color matrixes cause issues. RGB to YUV conversions are fairly common on consumer sets, even better Sony ones, and end results are often unpredictable. It's annoying as hell to me as it would all be solved by not having the signal converted to begin with. Will pick up a Sony KV25X1 tomorrow and check it out but I think it will show the same issue.

Obviously people are looking for different things and that's perfectly fine. Use whatever you want. Your ceiling may be someone else's floor though.

[ASDR]

I do however notice that most Sony CRTs made from the mid 90s and onward have a steep EOTF curve in shadows. This can make it more difficult to set the black level properly without losing shadow detail. It's all too common that I see Sonys with too high brightness, especially those that have not been properly calibrated as the RGB cutoff has usually drifted far too much over the years.

Yep, you can either have black crush or raised blacks. I always wished there was some kind of non-linear adjustment to fix this, i.e. gamma. I had to adjust RGB cutoff on several sets, good to know it's not just me.

[nissling]

Since the EOTF (or so called ”gamma”) is native on a CRT, it’s very much ”what you see is what you get” in this regard. Since very few CRTs perform good in a bright enviroment, I use a dark room anyway for my CRTs and by then I want shadows to be dark. Not clipped obviously. But again some Sonys, especially the BVMs, are very steep.

I have tried various methods to counter this and most of the time I end up having the broghtness and contrast at their default setting (1000 on the BVMs) and then adjust the white balance. Once I have 100 IRE at 100 nits and D65, I measure around 20 IRE and aim for around 2.7 nits when set to D65. This usually gives me a solid EOTF of power law 2.2. Remeasure the entire greyscale to see if I’ve introduced new errors and correct if needed.

Then I use the PLUGE pattern to adjust the brightness control. A proper PLUGE pattern (-2 / 0 / 2 IRE) should contain negative luminance levels to get a better idea where you’re setting the black level. You shouldn’t be afraid to make the 2% pattern a bit dark, but keep in mind that blooming makes the ANSI contrast very poor. Afterwards I check the white level and adjust the contrast to have 100 IRE reaching 100 nits. Then check PLUGE and the greyscale again to make sure that everything is fine.

I have also tried creating custom EOTF curves in CalMAN, but it’s very hard to reach those targets due to the relative nature of CRTs. Despite that it’s still kind of fascinating that newer pro monitors from both Sony and Dolby feature legacy CRT modes where the EOTF curve of the BVM-D32 is emulated. Some colorists (including myself) will probably never get fully used to LCDs and OLEDs.

[ASDR]

I have a decent collection of different CRTs but spent nearly all my CRT gaming time on late 90s early 2000s consumer sets. I don't like to see raised blacks so I just live with the black crush. On PS2 era games you start to have gamma-type adjustments and can often mitigate it a bit, which is nice. Some higher end consumer sets have a gamma setting, but this is mostly for large 16:9 Sonys here, don't have/want any of these. Haven't really messed with calibrating my PVMSs and the fairly highend Trinitron PC CRTs I got, the standard def TVs were all adjusted by eye with the 240p testsuite.

[nissling]

I checked out the KV-25X1 and it thankfully does not convert RGB to YUV. RGB is handled natively without weird color matrixes! So that's a good start. Now off to calibration with ColourSpace.

The controls for gain and cutoff were somewhat strange tho, as the red gun could not be changed whatsoever. I could only adjust green and blue to line in with the red gun as good as possible while aiming for D65. The controls in the service menu are a bit rough, but after dialing them back and forth a few times I got a stable greyscale throughout with exception for a slight red tint in the shadows (barely even visible). Ended up adjusting the sub brightness in the service menu for setting the black level, with the brightness control in the user menu set to the default (50%). Contrast in the user menu could be used to se the luminance output to 100 nits. EOTF curve to mostly close to power law 2.4, with values at 20IRE and below dipping somewhat lower at 2.5-2.6, but no crush. Blacks were measured to 0.0013 nits by the meter and that results in a contrast ratio (on/off) close to 75,000:1, but these figures are of course highly variable depending on various reasons. ANSI contrast is still not very good here, which is to be expected with the natural blooming that comes with a CRT. Take the numbers with a grain of salt.

In the end I'd say this is a very respectable TV. It doesn't offer the sharpness from a professionell monitor but image quality is still way above average for a consumer grade CRT. An excellent option for retro games in my book.
Last graph doesn't take luminance into account, so the devations at black and shadows are greatly exaggerated. Results are still within targets.