Space Megaforce / Super Aleste

[Accutron]

Well, I just got back from the flea market, rescued a copy of Space Megaforce from the withered clutches of an old man who has no business handling video games. I've played it a million times under emulation on the DC, but it only runs at about 80% speed with Mode 7 disabled (which makes for some interesting problems later on when you can't see everything that you need to). Anyway, I have somewhat mixed feelings about it. I like the fast ship, controls are good, graphics are good, level design is interesting, but the game is incredibly unbalanced. When your weapons are fully powered, you basically don't have to do anything except hold down the shoot (win?) button, and not lose your laser. Then, if you get knocked down to your pea shooter anywhere above level 3, the game is basically over because the levels are so crowded with hard targets. Anybody else have similar complaints?

[Metal Gear Okt]

You could say that about a lot of Compile shooters...

[sjewkestheloon]

definately the case. i've not given this anywhere near the attention that it deserves though. i'd say the main problem for me with the game is its length. i usually lose a life on the crumbling deserty stage, die stupidly with my pea shooter and then can't be arsed to get all the way back to there and get past it. i can imagine a lot of annoyance getting to the final stages and dying there.

not played many compile shmups but it seems they are all similar in this sense

[CIT]

The low difficulty with maxed out weapons Vs. extreme difficulty once you die and loose them all is a common criticism of Compile games, but if you think about it, how is that any different from other oldies like Gradius or Raiden?

The good thing about Super Aleste, and what makes it the best of all Compile Shooters IMO, is that it requires you to switch weapons a lot. Some levels, e.g. the desert stage, are extremely difficult with certain weapons. Even though it may come across as a total twitch game at first, it's actually also rather tactical.

I've never actually beaten it, because I do eventually die in one of the later stages and loose all my powerups, but who cares? Compile games were always primarily score shooters.

[BulletMagnet]

The complaints about the game aren't entirely ill-founded, but most of them can be remedied to some degree. The game's screen-filling firepower does make it comparatively easy to other shmups once you've powered up fully, and on "Normal" you can go through most of the game with the user-friendly laser, but for some reason a lot of people seem to forget (or downright refuse to acknowledge) that there are five difficulty levels in this game, and Normal is the easiest. If Normals is too boring/easy for you, crank the difficulty up, and you'll have to deal with tougher enemies and/or suicide bullets, depending on the setting. This will not only challenge you more, but also require you to more closely consider your weapon choices: one weapon will NOT get you through the entire game. As for being stuck when you die, there are 2 things you can remember to help with this: 1) collect the "enemy eraser" items that wipe everything off the screen; for each one you collect you're allowed to restart from where you died once, instead of being forced back to a checkpoint. 2) The game is rather generous with bombs, so if you're powered down, feel free to use a few to get out of a sticky situation until you're powered up again.

The game's not perfect, I'll readily acknowledge that, but I think that at least some of the flack it gets is undeserved.

[TGK]

Agreed,

Compile games are often fragged around here for being too easy, but well, they aren't on the harder difficulty settings, and "Normal" is the easiest out of 5! It is the equivalent of "Easy" on other games.

[Rob]

Lets crank up the difficulty on average games. Difficulty is the miracle cure!

[BrianC]

Lets crank up the difficulty on average games. Difficulty is the miracle cure!

Why the scarasm? Cranking up the difficulty really does make a huge difference with some games, especially Compile games where some difficulties are almost like the special modes in some more recent shmups. The difficulty levels in Super Aleste are a bit different from the norm BTW. Unlike most difficultly selects, the modes to the left of normal are actually special hard modes where bullets appear whenever an enemy is shot. The modes to the right of "normal" are typical harder modes. Blazing Lazers is much harder on harder modes, to the port of being almost maniac. Even "hard human" is much harder than "normal dog".

[Accutron]

All shooters are judged within a continuum of their collective characteristics. We say a game is unbalanced, but what we really mean is that a game is unbalanced relative to other games we've played. The only way to compare a bunch of shooters is to line them up next to each other by their developer-determined normal modes, since every shooter has a different difficulty spread. Sure, Wild mode may play better than Normal mode, but the developer has clearly stated that Normal mode is the regular condition of their game, by choosing it as the default difficulty setting.

Anyway, I don't want anyone to think I was slagging Space Megaforce. It's a fun game with a lot going for it, I just think that it's normally a little broken.

[BrianC]

All shooters are judged within a continuum of their collective characteristics. We say a game is unbalanced, but what we really mean is that a game is unbalanced relative to other games we've played. The only way to compare a bunch of shooters is to line them up next to each other by their developer-determined normal modes, since every shooter has a different difficulty spread. Sure, Wild mode may play better than Normal mode, but the developer has clearly stated that Normal mode is the regular condition of their game, by choosing it as the default difficulty setting.

Anyway, I don't want anyone to think I was slagging Space Megaforce. It's a fun game with a lot going for it, I just think that it's normally a little broken.

The game doesn't force you to play with the defaults, though. What's the point in judging the whole game based on defaults when it's only one part of the game and a part that doesn't need to be used? The other modes are there for a reason and they shouldn't be discounted just becuase they aren't the defaults. Seriously, I don't see the point of playing a mode you don't like just becuase it's the default.

[Accutron]

The game doesn't force you to play with the defaults, though. What's the point in judging the whole game based on defaults when it's only one part of the game and a part that doesn't need to be used? The other modes are there for a reason and they shouldn't be discounted just becuase they aren't the defaults.

I guess what you call the 'whole game' differs from what I do. To me, the 'whole game' is the game, from beginning to end, in whatever mode the developer deems normal. The extra modes are not inconsequential, but they're not normal either.

To come at it another way, can you say that there isn't something wrong with a shooter if you're calling its normal difficulty "a part that doesn't need to be used"? A game's default setting should not be irrelevant.

[BrianC]

The game doesn't force you to play with the defaults, though. What's the point in judging the whole game based on defaults when it's only one part of the game and a part that doesn't need to be used? The other modes are there for a reason and they shouldn't be discounted just becuase they aren't the defaults.

I guess what you call the 'whole game' differs from what I do. To me, the 'whole game' is the game, from beginning to end, in whatever mode the developer deems normal. The extra modes are not inconsequential, but they're not normal either.

To come at it another way, can you say that there isn't something wrong with a shooter if you're calling its normal difficulty "a part that doesn't need to be used"? A game's default setting should not be irrelevant.

I meant "doesn't need to be used" as in optional, not irrelevant and this topic feels too empty....

[Rob]

Lets crank up the difficulty on average games. Difficulty is the miracle cure!

Why the scarasm? Cranking up the difficulty really does make a huge difference with some games, especially Compile games where some difficulties are almost like the special modes in some more recent shmups. The difficulty levels in Super Aleste are a bit different from the norm BTW. Unlike most difficultly selects, the modes to the left of normal are actually special hard modes where bullets appear whenever an enemy is shot. The modes to the right of "normal" are typical harder modes. Blazing Lazers is much harder on harder modes, to the port of being almost maniac. Even "hard human" is much harder than "normal dog".

I tried these modes and it didn't make the level/game design seem any less idiotic and random.

[Accutron]

I meant "doesn't need to be used" as in optional, not irrelevant and this topic feels too empty....

Same difference. The default setting of a game should be requisite, not optional.

[BrianC]

I meant "doesn't need to be used" as in optional, not irrelevant and this topic feels too empty....

Same difference. The default setting of a game should be requisite, not optional.

So basically, you think all games should have only one difficulty setting and everything but normal is unecessary. A mode can be optional and not worthless. What's wrong with starting on a lower difficulty and then going higher? Reguardless of what the default setting is, the other difficulties are still part of the game.

[Accutron]

So basically, you think all games should have only one difficulty setting

No. Other modes can be fun.

and everything but normal is unecessary.

Yes. I'm a purist, and extra modes, while fun, are often unnecessary. If they are necessary, because the normal mode is lacking, then there's a problem.

A mode can be optional and not worthless.

Of course, but the default mode should not be optional. It is the mode by which a game should primarily be judged, because the people who made the game say it's normal. It is the benchmark setting.

What's wrong with starting on a lower difficulty and then going higher?

Nothing. I didn't say other difficulties served no purpose.

Reguardless of what the default setting is, the other difficulties are still part of the game.

We'll just have to disagree. I see extra modes as quasi-separate games.

[BrianC]

Well, if the game is extremely good (as in one of the best shooters out there) on another level, but not on normal (not specifically talking about Super Aleste) and the other level is selectable without having to be unlocked, why should the whole game be worthless? BTW, Super Aleste is a console shooter. It doesn't have a standard arcade default. I get the impression that the normal mode is actually the "easy" mode for that game. Accutron, I understand you only consider the arcade defaults to be the main game.

[BulletMagnet]

Sure, Wild mode may play better than Normal mode, but the developer has clearly stated that Normal mode is the regular condition of their game, by choosing it as the default difficulty setting.

I don't think this is necessarily always the case; for instance, on Harmful Park the difficulty is by default set to "Easy" (though it can go all the way up to "Very Hard"). Also, on some home ports of some arcade games (Soukyugurentai for example) by default the game is set a notch lower than the original arcade difficulty. The varying difficulty modes are there so that players can adjust the game's challenge to their liking, in either direction; not everyone is equally good at every game, after all.

Yes. I'm a purist, and extra modes, while fun, are often unnecessary. If they are necessary, because the normal mode is lacking, then there's a problem.

So you're saying that a game is "balanced" (or however you'd put it) in your opinion if the "default" settings suit you well but the "extra" stuff doesn't, but that it's somehow "lacking" if the default setting isn't to your taste and one of the "alternate" settings is? I think that's being a tad unreasonable; as was said, everyone's tastes in difficulty and such are different. Just because your preference didn't happen to fall into a game's default settings (but still can be played, with a bit of tweaking), can you downgrade your opinion of or dismiss the entire package?

The developers of these things didn't just include difficulty settings and such to take up space; they did it so that different levels of gamers could enjoy the product. For official high score threads and whatnot, sure, stick to the defaults (if that's what's specified). But if you're just playing to enjoy yourself or find a new challenge, why not explore what's included beyond the default settings? I don't think there's anything "wrong" with that.

[Cthulhu]

I'm all for having a balanced "standard" difficulty... but I'm surprised at how much people want to avoid going into the options menu and bumping the difficulty up. It's just a short menu hop away folks... your precious 10 seconds spent changing the difficulty will be well worth it

[TGK]

The issue of what goes into the "default" difficulty is normally not what the developer decides anyway, but the producer(s). And that normally depends on what kind of market they are selling to.

Console game obviously tend to have an easy mode as default, since they will throw off many casual gamers if they make a supposed home-entertainment product into a quarter muncher.

I fail to see why one judge a game by its default difficulty, which most of the time has nothing to do with the choice of the developers.

Say, ALL flight sim defaults to "very easy" mode, with 95% of all real physics dampened, does this mean we all have to play them that way? The default mode of any flight sim is not how any serious flight sim fan supposed to play it, it is just happened to be made default because the game would not sell otherwise.

[Accutron]

Sure, Wild mode may play better than Normal mode, but the developer has clearly stated that Normal mode is the regular condition of their game, by choosing it as the default difficulty setting.

I don't think this is necessarily always the case; for instance, on Harmful Park the difficulty is by default set to "Easy" (though it can go all the way up to "Very Hard"). Also, on some home ports of some arcade games (Soukyugurentai for example) by default the game is set a notch lower than the original arcade difficulty. The varying difficulty modes are there so that players can adjust the game's challenge to their liking, in either direction; not everyone is equally good at every game, after all.

In the case of Harmful Park (never played it) I'm assuming one of those difficulties is labeled Normal or Medium or something right? As far as games which have a 'non-default' true Arcade mode, Arcade is the default. There's a lot of variation in difficulty settings, so sometimes you have to use a bit of intuition. However, when a game's default setting is labeled Normal, well, not much intuition is necessary.

Yes. I'm a purist, and extra modes, while fun, are often unnecessary. If they are necessary, because the normal mode is lacking, then there's a problem.

So you're saying that a game is "balanced" (or however you'd put it) in your opinion if the "default" settings suit you well but the "extra" stuff doesn't, but that it's somehow "lacking" if the default setting isn't to your taste and one of the "alternate" settings is? I think that's being a tad unreasonable; as was said, everyone's tastes in difficulty and such are different. Just because your preference didn't happen to fall into a game's default settings (but still can be played, with a bit of tweaking), can you downgrade your opinion of or dismiss the entire package?

Dismiss the entire package? No. Downgrade my opinion? Somewhat. I would of course judge Space Megaforce more harshly if it didn't offer the extra modes, but having a shakey default in the first place is a problem. It's the default setting, it's called Normal. That seems like a pretty clear message from the developer (and/or producer, TGK) that Normal is the way they most primarily want you to experience the game engine.

The developers of these things didn't just include difficulty settings and such to take up space; they did it so that different levels of gamers could enjoy the product. For official high score threads and whatnot, sure, stick to the defaults (if that's what's specified). But if you're just playing to enjoy yourself or find a new challenge, why not explore what's included beyond the default settings? I don't think there's anything "wrong" with that.

I already covered this, and obviously agree with you.

TGK: You bring up interesting points, but I'll need you to show your work. In my experience, most console shooters' default settings are Normal/Medium/equivalent. As far as the developer/producer issue, that seems like something that should be hashed out amongst themselves. When a game lands in my hands, it better have a solid default mode.

It's fine to have alternative difficulties for uh...alternative players, but it's pretty well established within the genre that whatever difficulty you call normal should have some teeth.

At the least, Space Megaforce has some fucked up labeling in its options menu. You can imagine my dismay when I come across a game which only has Easy/Hard difficulty settings

Flight sims: I've played a grand total of one flight sim in my entire life: F/A-18 Hornet for the Mac, and its defaults were set somewhere between "crash and burn" and "die instantly"...very unforgiving defaults.

[Cthulhu]

At the least, Space Megaforce has some fucked up labeling in its options menu. You can imagine my dismay when I come across a game which only has Easy/Hard difficulty settings

Alien Soldier anyone? You get "very easy" or "very hard." Hrm. I can't bring myself to play it on very easy, but good god do the enemies do a lot of damage in very hard...

[sjewkestheloon]

erm chill out guys. seriously it doesn't matter that much.

[Accutron]

Hmm? I don't think anybody's angry...just a friendly debate.

[sethsez]

When you're complaining that a game is too easy despite having the option to make it harder, you're just looking for something to bitch about. Sorry, but that's how I see it.

And many games have difficulties labeled as "normal" not because that's the mode you're supposed to play on, but because that just happens to be the middle one. Additionally, "normal" often isn't mode that the game is developed for, it's just the mode that they think best fits "normal" players. Mega Man II is an obvious example, since "Hard" is actually how the game was originally developed, and the standard mode for Japan (this was changed for the re-release in MMAC). In Devil May Cry III, the game was developed around Hard mode, not Normal (this was eventually "fixed" for America, where our Normal is their Hard). In Doom, "Hurt Me Plenty" is the default setting, but "Ultra Violence" is what the game, and every single guide for the game, is centered around. Same with Halo... it may not default to Legendary, but that's the mode that fully makes use of all the game's mechanics and AI routines, and it's how the game is meant (and designed) to be played. It's also hard as nails, so it's not the default.

Often, a game with many difficulty settings defaults to a setting easier than how the game was originally designed. If you're so shackled by semantics that you can't enjoy the other, higher (and likely more accurate) difficulty settings, then you're missing out on some great games due to a misunderstanding of the developer's meaning of "normal."

[Marc]

I just think it's fucking boring, regardless of difficulty level. It's just boring and hard on higher ones.

[BulletMagnet]

It's fine to have alternative difficulties for uh...alternative players, but it's pretty well established within the genre that whatever difficulty you call normal should have some teeth...At the least, Space Megaforce has some fucked up labeling in its options menu.

So if I follow you, you would have a higher opinion of the game if it had labeled "Normal" as "Easy" and one of the harder modes as "Normal?" If this is the case, then it seems that at least part of your complaint here is with the labeling of the gameplay rather than the gameplay itself; everyone's priorities when judging a game are different, obviously, but in my own opinion such a discrepancy is a very minor thing, since all the settings you need to adjust the game to your liking ARE there, and methinks that's the most important thing to take into account.

[TGK]

To Accutron: a few examples of flight sims

Old school: F117 by Microprose starts you out with a godlike F117 that allows you to wolf whistle in front of a radar and still get away unscathed. But turn that to "Lockheed Martin" mode (it's well hidden too!) and you have to calculate your flightpath carefully if you ever hope to weave through just a medium length mission. And when you get a Medal of Honour, dammit you really earned it.

A bit Newer (1995): USNF, ATF by hmm, I forgot, but the same developer as the Chuck Yeager games. The default has 90% enemy planes in "novice" skill level, the hard mode is very hard and feels real (I haven't flew a real plane before, I only judge by my knowledge of physics)

And yet newer: Falcon 4.0, heralded by most as the most detailed and "real" F16 sim ever made. In default mode you can take an ungodly amount of damage and still fly.

There are some flight sim that starts you out at "bitch hard", but they are the minority. You were just unlucky to pick that one.

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To everyone: this post is not off topic, I'm trying to make my point above that the default difficulty does not reflect how the game should be played, and give Accutron a few flight sim examples that I've played.

[ED-057]

IME Space Megaforce is great fun on any diffculty setting. Finishing the game on normal is no challenge but there's no reason not to try the other settings since you have to go to the options menu anyways to change the sound to stereophonic right?

[gs68]

I remember renting this game as a kid. I thought "Tricky" was an easy difficulty setting >_>

I can't find this game at the flea market. At all. And I am not going to use emulator for this.