Multiple difficulty modes: The new trend in shmups?

[8 1/2]

With the release of Mushi and it's many modes I was thinking about Espgaluda's release last year. I got the game and was so hungry for a new Cave game that I just poured myself into it. In about five days I had the 1CC and I never really played it again. Arrange mode was a nice addition, and I've messed around with it somewhat, but for some reason it just didn't feel like the "real" game. In all this time I've never really gone back to play Galuda seriously again. I just can't get into it as that thrill of overcoming the odds just isn't there for me anymore.

Now with Mushi I'm hearing that the basic mode is supposed to be really easy, and I'm worried I'm heading down the same path. I'm actually thinking that I need to start out on Maniac and not even mess with Normal until I get burned out.

My wonder is this: Since when do shmups have alternate modes that take it easy on you? I think the main argument for these modes is that the average gamer will be more likely to get into the game if it isn't too intimidating, but isn't it a bit late in the history of these games to be worrying about Johnny GTA? I'm all for difficulty settings on consoles, but the arcade should be a cut-and-dry bone breaking experience from beginning to end.

Honestly, I'd much rather see one continous game with two loops. REMEMBER WHEN THE SECOND LOOP WAS MANIAC MODE?

I'm just hoping that this isn't going to catch on and we'll soon have a bunch of shmups with dumbed-down normal modes while the real game is relegated to some alternate section for the "Crazies" who want a real challenge.

[Metal Gear Okt]

Honestly, we need every Johnny GTA that we can get. If that means that you have to play on something other than your precious defaults, so be it.

[Recap]

My wonder is this: Since when do shmups have alternate modes that take it easy on you?

Since difficulty levels were invented? Ikaruga shows this perfectly.


Edit: You could also make a thread about the new extra auto-fire button "trend". Including it "officially" on the arcade version of Mushi was for sure a break. Not to mention all that different performance shit regarding frequencies and whatnot.

[BrianC]

Doesn't anyone use alternate difficulties any more? To my knowledge, they are pretty much standard for shmups now. They make a huge differance for games like Blazing Lazers and Fire Shark, but they keep getting ignored. Why?

[Rob]

They make a huge differance for games like Blazing Lazers and Fire Shark, but they keep getting ignored. Why?

Now they're OFFICIAL MODES. Who checks option menus? Cave innovation at its absolute finest, make people salivate for something they've already been getting.

I hate loops, though. Kill 'em.

[system11]

My wonder is this: Since when do shmups have alternate modes that take it easy on you? I think the main argument for these modes is that the average gamer will be more likely to get into the game if it isn't too intimidating, but isn't it a bit late in the history of these games to be worrying about Johnny GTA? I'm all for difficulty settings on consoles, but the arcade should be a cut-and-dry bone breaking experience from beginning to end.

Space Invaders has a hard mode dip switch. It is not the default from memory.

I didn't think galuda was that easy too - I thought it was a return to sane default difficulty levels, after a small period of alienation for a large part of the shmup playing community who do not play these games like its a religion to train for.

Bakraid by the way is a more modern example. Advanced could be considered the full game, it's not the default though.

[system11]

I hate loops, though. Kill 'em.

Agreed.

We couldn't be bothered to make the game adequately long with a proper difficulty curve and options for those who want more, so...

We looped it!

Genius.

[llabnip]

I hate loops, though. Kill 'em.

Agreed.
We couldn't be bothered to make the game adequately long with a proper difficulty curve and options for those who want more, so...
We looped it!
Genius.

I have the opposite reaction. I generally don't like games that end. There are exceptions (Radiant Silvergun and, of course, RPGs). Early arcade games generally went on forever - they were addictive and they went until you simply couldn't keep up with the difficulty anymore. I'm all for that. If it were up to me, all shooters would simply loop forever (at higher levels of difficulty).

I'd have been so severely disapointed if Galaga had an end (well, some early games did end when you maxed out the score... but that's more of a 'freeze' point that few people will ever see).

[BrianC]

They make a huge differance for games like Blazing Lazers and Fire Shark, but they keep getting ignored. Why?

Now they're OFFICIAL MODES. Who checks option menus? Cave innovation at its absolute finest, make people salivate for something they've already been getting.

I hate loops, though. Kill 'em.

Option menus should be checked. Not just for difficulty selection, but for other stuff like sound tests too.

[Rob]

I'm all for that. If it were up to me, all shooters would simply loop forever (at higher levels of difficulty).

Good thing you're not in charge. Playing for score would be the most boring thing in the world and where would be the sense of closure after a difficult struggle? I like closure.

[BulletMagnet]

IIRC, "Normal," "Maniac" and "Ultra" weren't really intended to be Mushi's equivalent of "Easy," "Normal," and "Hard": in fact, doesn't the game already have the latter in its regular ol' options menu? I remember it being said that "Normal" was a bit more "old-school," in that the bullets were fewer, but faster, while "Maniac" is more the usual Cave bullet clouds, and "Ultra" is for the insane people. I'd guess that people might find "normal" to be easy because it apparently retains the other modes' smaller hitbox, which would make the game a good deal easier for people used to larger old-school hitboxes found in other games of its type. In any event, I'd be interested to see comparisons between, say "Maniac" mode switched to "Hard" difficulty, versus what you'd find in "Ultra" on "Easy," something like that.

In any case, I don't see why anyone would have a problem with making a game more accessible to less skilled players, at least giving them a chance to get into it a bit before moving on to the "hardcore" stuff...it's not like they're exactly neglecting the "god" players out there.

[8 1/2]

Well then. I guess I'm in the minority here. I wasn't really talking about difficulty settings so much as alternate modes.

Fuck this board is hostile these days.

[jp]

I prefer loops myself... I thought this was done perfectly in Batsugun Special Edition.

[BulletMagnet]

Well then. I guess I'm in the minority here. I wasn't really talking about difficulty settings so much as alternate modes.

Not trying to be hostile or anything, it's just that your original post made it seem that your main problem was that the game makers (or, more specifically, arcade makers) seem to be catering more to "Johnny GTA." It just seems curious that you'd worry about the makers "getting soft" when they put up Ultra Mode as well to offer an extra challenge to those who want it. I don't think that the "take no prisoners" players have anything to worry about, even if there's extra stuff included to make a game more accessible; those who make arcade games know where most of their revenue comes from, after all.

[Cthulhu]

I like loops being in a game, but to me they feel more like an extra than primary content. When you have to meet special requirements to get to see extra loops, however, it rubs me the wrong way (it took me years to see the #%&$% second loop in DDP). I think Mushihime-sama's setup works great, but I don't mind opening up an options menu and setting things to hard either.

[system11]

I like the way Mushi does it - although people who have played it more than me, say that in some ways the harder modes are easier than the normal one! I only got a chance to play 5 or 6 games on it when I saw it in London, play-asia have shipped mine today via UPS so I'll find out pretty soon.

[Cthulhu]

I like the way Mushi does it - although people who have played it more than me, say that in some ways the harder modes are easier than the normal one! I only got a chance to play 5 or 6 games on it when I saw it in London, play-asia have shipped mine today via UPS so I'll find out pretty soon.

I sure found ordinary the easiest... but even if you do somehow find maniac to be easier than ordinary, I really, really doubt you'll find ordinary to be harder than ultra.

[sffan]

I'm all for that. If it were up to me, all shooters would simply loop forever (at higher levels of difficulty).

Good thing you're not in charge. Playing for score would be the most boring thing in the world and where would be the sense of closure after a difficult struggle? I like closure.

F*ck closure. I prefer a continuing challenge, I'm with llabnip.

I know this is OT, sorry. Back to multiple options/difficulty settings.

[Rob]

Yeah, but there are much more efficient ways of making a game continuously challenging besides letting it run outside of the known universe, like scoring systems. And they still manage to "end," which provides something of closure, not to mention helps ward off various RSIs and general wastes of time building to what is currently your challenge (like when you've gotten to a point where the 5th loop is the beginning of the real challenge, loops 1-4 are a waste of time).

[CMoon]

I think the idea of different kinds of game play AND different levels of difficulty is awesome. I can't wait to see how Mushi treats these different styles of gameplay! I also find myself enamoured with shmups that allow multiple styles of gameplay and adjusts accordingly (ESPgaluda adjusts to whether you abuse the 'slowdown' for score or survivial--and you can use it either way.)

On the other hand, I feel bad for you 8 1/2 if you are both skilled enough to beat ESPgaluda so quickly, but couldn't get a lot of pleasure out of it. I've never 1cc'd a Cave game and it doesn't seem like I ever will, but I still play Galuda quite a bit and get a ton of pleasure from it. I guess it is the advantages of not being as skilled as you are.

And what you said about hostility, I totally hear it. I really don't post here nearly as much because of it; it is kinda sad.

[Davey]

Honestly, we need every Johnny GTA that we can get.

We do?

[CMoon]

Honestly, we need every Johnny GTA that we can get.

We do?

Not in THIS BOARD we don't!

[Neon]

(like when you've gotten to a point where the 5th loop is the beginning of the real challenge, loops 1-4 are a waste of time).

Yeah, exactly. This is Batsugun's main problem. The first loop is boring easy even on the highest difficulty settings.

[Randorama]

Honestly, we need every Johnny GTA that we can get.

We do?

We, who?

And beside that,

In any case, I don't see why anyone would have a problem with making a game more accessible to less skilled players, at least giving them a chance to get into it a bit before moving on to the "hardcore" stuff...it's not like they're exactly neglecting the "god" players out there.

Not even the shmup gods themselves, i think that ISO or SWY (two of the strongest around) has the record for the "normal" version. After all, easy or though, it's still about being the first one

in response to the original thread: no, "normal" mode should be less cerebrotic in scoring system, but if more modes can involve more possible approaches, it means that the companies can cough up more money, hopefully. However, if ISO or SWY can play the normal mode for score...

Beside that, the whole issue about frequency and autofire is a bit peculiar: let's just say that Japanese players started to demand autofire very early and not even for shmups.In this case, Cave guys have just worked on a specific aspect.

[8 1/2]

In rereading my original post I think I wasn't clear in my intent with this thread. I don't mean to say that I'm really all that dissatisfied with the way Cave's been putting their games together so much as I have a bit of a complex about alternate modes. Call it a bit of ADD, but I've always been that kid that rented two games and wound up not getting anywhere in either of them because I kept skipping back and forth.

When I play the "Normal" version of a game like Galuda I feel like I'm cheating myself by not pushing myself to get better at Arrange. When I play Arrange, and realize I'm a bit helpless to ever clear it, I start to beat myself up for my lack of skill. It's a weird cycle. Yet, with a game like DOJ that has only one main mode I can get my ass kicked all day long and it doesn't bother me because there's a singular focus.

And I'm not terribly good at these games. I've just been playing Cave games pretty steadily for the last few years and I have a bit of an eye for their patterns now. I'm not nearly as good at other developer's shmups. Psikyo routinely tosses me in the dirt by stage 5. So, I really don't want to come off as some smug fucker that thinks he's too good for the Normal modes in these games. Too crazy is more like it.

[Wanderer]

I see Mushihime-Sama as having three different modes to appease three different type of Cave gamers that have developed over the years:

1. The top players on these boards and in Japan that surpass most gamer’s high score by the end of stage 1.
2. Guys like 8 ½ that have above average high scores and that can 1CC Esprade and Espgaluda.
3. Guys like me that can 1CC Shienryu Explosion , and have aspirations to one day combine enough practice and luck to 1CC a Cave game. Any Cave game will do!

[Marc]

When I play the "Normal" version of a game like Galuda I feel like I'm cheating myself by not pushing myself to get better at Arrange. When I play Arrange, and realize I'm a bit helpless to ever clear it, I start to beat myself up for my lack of skill. It's a weird cycle. Yet, with a game like DOJ that has only one main mode I can get my ass kicked all day long and it doesn't bother me because there's a singular focus.

I hear ya, that describes my mindset perfectly. It did anyway, in a way this board has helped me put that behind me. There's so much biitching, whining, and disagreement on what a 'real' 1'cc is, loops, chains, rank, etc... That so many people have so many different idea's on how a game 'should' be played - OR ELSE YOU'RE NOT DOING IT PROPERLY -, that so many people on a board DEDICATED to shooters can't reach an agreement on the SIMPLEST of things, due to that I've quickly learned to play for myself. For my fun and enjoyment, for my sense of personal accomplishment, and if that jars with anyone else's ideals - well fuck 'em.

[SuperNoodle]

I'm one for a singular focus of a game, myself, that allows a bit of customization to allow maximum enjoyment.

Pardon length -- apologies come in advance.

I think that the bearability of a game's mode depends on how the mode compares to the rest of the game. Lacking the crazy Japan skills to score DOJ or Mushihime, I can pull examples from a few domestic games here and there, and maybe they relate to those games's modes.

RayStorm on PSX, for example. I thought that that did the "Extra Mode" was done quite well. It had snazzier music, color palette swaps, semi- to quite different enemy and bullet patterns, a mighty different Level 7 boss, and God help you once you made it to Level 8. Y'know... LIKE AN EXTRA LOOP. Of course, in the options you could crank the difficulty on a per-level basis (a feature I'd like to see more often) if you want that "2nd Loop DEATH" mode or just enjoy it like it is. It's a loop without the fluff.

RayCrisis on the PSX, by contrast, made me cry in its Extra mode. Not only did it remove power-ups, but tinkered with core mechanics of the game like Encroachment reduction and LIVES (1-ups for everyone!) as well as fixing level order to leave a muddy, icky mess that seems like a red-headed stepchild of the real game. A fine example of the one-game-two-game-confusion scenario whose-author-I-can't-find mentioned.

Difficulty settings, in theory, keep the focus of the game intact while cranking up intensity. The two mindsets I've seen in this design regard are 1) Crank up bullet numbers and speed, or 2) Change patterns of bullets or enemies. Either one can sometimes work, sometimes not, and can render the setting useless if done wrong.

We're all familiar with 1-Type increases -- traditional rank systems, the typical easy-normal-hard shenanigans, and so forth. Raizing games are notorious for this, to use a completely arbitrary example. Layer Section, Gunbird, what have you.

2-Type crank-ups common in a second loop, but that's usually coupled with a MASSIVE jump in 1-Type difficulty. That makes the potentially sexy new patterns inaccessible to most non-ninja shmuppers, and a beast to make it to the point where you'll die again and again learning 'em. Again, Raizing pulls this with their bosses AS YOU GO, but the method for doing so is coupled with 1-Type cranks, and so it's doubly terrifying when the Stage-2 Redux in Garegga's Cloud stage pulls out the Green Lightning on a TOTALLY RANDOM (not really, but y'know, example-ized) basis based on the invisible rank, again, completely arbitrary example. Not fun, when you can't control it -- destroys .

Halo's a pretty good example of design choice #2 in action, with minimal 1-Type tweaks. Weapon damages hurt you a bit more, hurt the enemy a bit less, yes, but the mass appeal of the different settings was the different enemy placement and severely cranked-up AI on Hard or especially the almighty Legendary mode, with enemies doing backflips to avoid grenades and using flanking tactics effectively where they'd stand still on Easy or Normal. The singular focus was still intact -- same weapons, same idea, but tactics and survival necessitated more savvy.

To use a more Shmuppy, less FPSy example, Einhänder had a pretty good integration of 2-Type difficulty: Easy was cake, and Normal was the baseline, but in Hard, rather than endless bullet-streams of hell-bullets, the bosses in particular cranked out more and more varied attack patterns, jiggling them in insidious ways that were never conceived of in Normal. Slightly higher resilience made for longetivity enough to unveil the new attacks, but skilled players could compensate with cunning to much avail. Again, singular focus intact.

Sounds like Galuda's Arrange mode features a massive crank in 1-Type and 2-Type difficulty, which would explain the foreign feeling one gets in it when weaned on Normal. Makes the game feel weird, since it's divergent.

Working on the principle of maximum fun for everyone, I'm of the mind that more games should be able to be tweaked to a gamer's specifications on how they wanna have fun. I'd like to see separately customizable 1-Type and 2-Type difficulty modes, myself. That'd solve the need for twinked "Arrange" modes whilst being nifty new challenges in of themselves. I also would love to see more games allow difficulty settings on a per-stage basis, so one could really crank up the different forms of the game's experience. Everybody wins! Except the game programmers and designers, who work more to achieve "legend" status.

[Andi]

The more options to control how you want to play the game, the better. Hell, if you could edit the speed of enemies, your hit box size, rate of fire, and frequency of power up appearances all seperately, that would be even cooler.

[BulletMagnet]

The more options to control how you want to play the game, the better. Hell, if you could edit the speed of enemies, your hit box size, rate of fire, and frequency of power up appearances all seperately, that would be even cooler.

I think at that point you're approaching Dezaemon territory.