Input Lag of PS1 games on PS3?

[Friendly]

Posting this on-topic because this is mainly important for shmups.

I've seen it mentioned a few times here, but never got a response when I asked about it. Has anyone with a good lag-free setup confimred if there really is lag, and how much there is? Does this apply only to PSone classics from PSN or to real disc-based PS1 games too?

[Fudoh]

The lag is about 40ms and it applies to both PSN titles and real PS1 CDs.

[bcass]

Why does it happen? Is it the fault of the emulator and/or the wireless controller? If it's the emulator, was the lag the same when playing PS1 games on a PS2?

[Fudoh]

It's the usual emulation lag. Wireless control isn't slower than wired control. The PS3 control scheme seems to be a frame slower than the 360 for example (see SSF4 input lag tests).

The PS2 doesn't emulate the PS1. PS1 games are supported by the hardware and there's no lag on the PS2 when playing PS1 games.

[Friendly]

Thanks Fudoh. So we are talking 40ms. That's totally negligible, considering that according to a digital foundary article "Most 60FPS games have a 66.67ms latency - Ridge Racer 7, for example. 30FPS games have a minimum potential lag of 100ms, but many exceed this." For instance, GTA IV has 166ms lag.

The important thing is to use a TV that doesn't add tons of lag by slow picture processing.

[Nasirosuchus]

It's the usual emulation lag. Wireless control isn't slower than wired control. The PS3 control scheme seems to be a frame slower than the 360 for example (see SSF4 input lag tests).

The PS2 doesn't emulate the PS1. PS1 games are supported by the hardware and there's no lag on the PS2 when playing PS1 games.

The fat PS2's have PS2 hardware inside, but the slim PS2's use software emulation for PS1 games.

[Rupert H]

If the fat PS2 is 100% hardware backwards-compatible, why do certain PS1 games have such a hard time running on it? I'm thinking of Toaplan Shooting Collection Vol. 1, Gradius Gaiden, etc...

[Fudoh]

The fat PS2's have PS2 hardware inside, but the slim PS2's use software emulation for PS1 games.

that's not true. Both the fat and the slim ones use dedicated hardware for PS1 games (that's why you can't load PS1 images using the HDLoader tool). The PS2's processor can't really emulate PS1 games, it's too weak. The difference between the fat and the slim PS2 is mainly in the PS2 processor design.

If you like, call it hardware emulation, but that's something completely different than software emulation.

If the fat PS2 is 100% hardware backwards-compatible, why do certain PS1 games have such a hard time running on it? I'm thinking of Toaplan Shooting Collection Vol. 1, Gradius Gaiden, etc...

the fat PS2 is not more compatible to PS1 games than the slim PS2. 100% compatibility is not even given for PS2 titles. There are some PS2 games which don't properly run on the slim units while they're fine on the fat ones. Nevertheless PS1 compatibility is as good as it gets with less than 0.1% titles giving problems. If this wasn't a shmup board and Toaplan Shooting Battle and Gradius were popular examples, people wouldn't even know about this.

Thanks Fudoh. So we are talking 40ms. That's totally negligible, considering that according to a digital foundary article "Most 60FPS games have a 66.67ms latency - Ridge Racer 7, for example. 30FPS games have a minimum potential lag of 100ms, but many exceed this." For instance, GTA IV has 166ms lag. The important thing is to use a TV that doesn't add tons of lag by slow picture processing.

the 40ms aren't much, but they're not totally negligible either. To compare a 2.5 frame lag to any 3D title's input processing, isn't fair. Compare it to the ZERO ms delay of a 2D title played on a CRT. 3 frames are about the maximum delay you're able to compensate when playing a shoot'em up title. 2 frames are about the lowest any modern LCD or plasma TV will add, so you end with 4.5 frames already.

[Nasirosuchus]

that's not true. Both the fat and the slim ones use dedicated hardware for PS1 games (that's why you can't load PS1 images using the HDLoader tool). The PS2's processor can't really emulate PS1 games, it's too weak. The difference between the fat and the slim PS2 is mainly in the PS2 processor design.

My mistake. It's actually the PS3 which used software emulation for PS1 games.

[Friendly]

2 frames are about the lowest any modern LCD or plasma TV will add, so you end with 4.5 frames already.

If a game runs at 30fps, then 33.33ms = 1 frame. That means 40ms = ~1.2 frames. So if your TV adds 2 frames (66ms), then you are at 3.2 frames.

However, there appear to be TVs that have less lag than 66ms: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1131464

[Ex-Cyber]

IIRC, the PS2 actually does emulate (parts of) the PS1 GPU by shipping display lists over to the EE and GS. It's been a while since I've seen it discussed, though.

[Fudoh]

If a game runs at 30fps

completely forget about the fps a game is running. You have to see this from a hardware level. The output of the system is always 60Hz, either 240p60 from an original PS1 or 480i/480p/720p/1080i/1080p60 from a PS3. If you read anything about delay on any website dealing with processors or displays, 1 frame = 16.67ms (1/60sec). Better TV sets (Panasonic Plasma sets) have about 35ms delay. Most current Sony TVs have about 3 frames.

[toaplan_shmupfan]

Seems I got longer lag--almost a half second delay, with the combination of Namco Museum volume 2 plus PS3, Samsung LCD widescreen TV. Having to move and fire almost a half second early when playing Gaplus and Xevious was NOT fun, and I gave up after about two minutes of playing.

Also, so far the only PS1 game that has malfunctioned during play when played on a slimline PS2 was Mortal Kombat Trilogy. The symptom is that the game doesn't continue back to the next fighter after the winner of the fight. Also, even though Smash TV in Arcade Party Pak for the PS1 has a malfunction where firing up using the Triangle key will get stuck firing up until another button is pressed, the workaround is to use the right analog stick for firing instead of the Square/Triangle/X/O buttons.

[neorichieb1971]

Playing Gitaroo man (PS2) on my PS3 is simply unnacceptable. I did play some ps1 games that were music related and again it was simply unnacceptable.

I don't know if its true but connecting a USB cable is supposed to help a bit. Although I don't think I'd like to play wired on my PS3.

[Rupert H]

If a game runs at 30fps

Most current Sony TVs have about 3 frames.

This TV claims to have 0-10ms lag which if I understand you correctly is less than one frame. Is that correct or have they misunderstood the details?

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/sony-kdl ... 124136.htm

[Fudoh]

No, you're right. That WAS a great gaming LCD, but it's been out of production for years and all the current EX/NX/HX Sonys are considerably slower.

[Rupert H]

Phew! That's exactly what all my research had turned up so I went out and bought one last month for the amazing price of £320. I haven't noticed even a hint of lag, but it's good to know my findings are backed up by the science.

[BuckoA51]

Ah, the KDL-40Z4500, you can have mine.... OVER MY DEAD BODY! It's a lovely TV for both gaming and movies.

You can still find them refurbished a lot of places too.

[Friendly]

For my next TV purchase, I'll wait until there are LED backlit passive LCD 3D TVs (like the ones from LG), but with less lag. I'm in no hurry. Presumably, lag is a matter of processing power. They are stuffing in more image processing than they should given their current CPUs. Since modern LCD HDTVs use much less electricity and have much better contrast than the ones made a couple of years ago, I definitely wouldn't seek out an old one now. Depending on how many hours a day you use it, the reduced power consumption alone can mean saving a couple of hundred EUR over the course of a few years.

[Friendly]

Playing Gitaroo man (PS2) on my PS3 is simply unnacceptable. I did play some ps1 games that were music related and again it was simply unnacceptable.

I don't know if its true but connecting a USB cable is supposed to help a bit. Although I don't think I'd like to play wired on my PS3.

As has been explained here, the problem is caused by your HDTV, which induces too much lag with image processing. Playing with a wired controller changes nothing.
If you were to use an old CRT TV instead, you would see that the games run fine.

Hint: Use your TV's "Game Mode" or "PC Mode" if available; they have less lag.

[neorichieb1971]

If I use my PS2 to play gitaroo man the lag is completely and UTTERLY gone.

I have a Sony W4500 which is one of the best TV's for gaming in the past few years.

Besides, PS3 games don't have the lag I get on PS2/1 games.

[Friendly]

Really, I had no idea. I'm using a Japanese 60GB PS3 with full hardware PS2 backwards compatibility to play PS2 games, and it's spot-on. I suppose the partial software emulation of the European launch model (which I assume you have) is less than perfect. Europe really got the short end of the stick.

[Fudoh]

I've also got a japanese 60GB launch model and PS2 playback involves a 2-frame lag as well. This time it's not caused by emulation but by the video post processing. The games are internally rendered at 480i and then deinterlaced and upscaled by the PS3 graphics processor. If you have a game which supports native 480p output and you set the PS3 to 480p output, then the lag is reduced a single frame (which is nothing to worry about).

[neorichieb1971]

I have a US and UK PS3. As Fudoh states (probably better than I can explain myself) something is happening causing a delay.

Gitaroo man does not have 480p options.

I find it hard to believe its only 2 frames. I literally have to press the button before the icons reach the point where you press the buttons. On PS1 games such as that Konami bishi bashi game, it was so horrendous that I deleted it straight away. It was nigh on unplayable. Mind you I did play that on the UK machine. My Gitaroo man is US so I had to play it on my US PS3 (region lockout).

I suppose if your playing a game for the first time on a PS3 you might just get USED TO IT. But if your used to playing the game on an older console/TV and you have to convert yourself, it does sometimes spoil the experience as it did for me. Especially if your playing for nostalgia reasons and you were "pretty good at it". It is demoralizing to play it and get such a crappy score as you don't really want to learn it again.

[zaphod]

For any rhythm game without timing widows big enough to drive a mac truck through, even one frame of lag matters, especially for faster songs, and very slow songs.

When the audio lag is much less than the video, some like DDR, are a bit more playable.

Lag also hurts shmups a LOT, because if the tight timing windows needed to slip between bullets.

I wouldn't trust a ps3 for playing a challenging shmup at all.

[dieKatze88]

For any rhythm game without timing widows big enough to drive a mac truck through, even one frame of lag matters, especially for faster songs, and very slow songs.

When the audio lag is much less than the video, some like DDR, are a bit more playable.

Lag also hurts shmups a LOT, because if the tight timing windows needed to slip between bullets.

I wouldn't trust a ps3 for playing a challenging shmup at all.

The Later DDR games are much more playable than the earlier ones in terms of dealing with input lag. My Panasonic Viera don'tknowthegoddamnmodeloffthetopofmyhead is pretty good about NOT destroying your faith in humanity with games that are relatively recent, but DDR MAX and DDR MAX2? Fucking forget it. And any DDR Game that runs at 30FPS is completely unplayable. (*Insert your own joke about all older PS1 DDR games being unplayable here. But I've never had a problem getting single digit greats on any of those when playing with a CRT) I've knocked it down to the Viera's Deinterlacer too, as the culprit for this incredible badness. feeding a Progressive Scan signal of any kind through the analog or digital ports results in that less than a frame you expect, but when you're deinterlacing it goes up to 2 or 3 frames.

beatmania IIDX for that reason is completely unplayable on my screen, and Konami did some wizardry in the code that makes those Force 480p patches work poorly on these games, I don't get a usable signal in either DDR (any of them) or beatmania IIDX (any of them) so I can't even make a good college try of fixing it.

If I hook up my Xbox 360 via HDMI it's fine however, no problems with Otomedius G (and its gigantic hitboxes with a shield) or in Hard Corps Uprising, or for that matter any of the other games I have laying around this place.

On the PS3 side of things. Yeah it's pretty bad. I too own a release day Japanese unit, however I'm lame and Have a 20gb model. (You win this round, Fudoh) Gradius Gaiden is completely unplayable, and that game can be pretty forgiving. I haven't thrown Gradius III and IV in there (because I fucking hate those ports for being so bad. Why subject yourself to that when you have MAME for Gradius III and own a real Gradius IV PCB?) and tested it yet, but I'm sure it's just as bad. Shockingly, beatmania IIDX 10th Style was ALMOST playable on my PS3 when I tried it back with a CRT, although without a controller it's pretty fucking hard. Dualshockmania IIDX is pretty lame to begin with, but the timing did feel reasonably on spot. That test was done however with Component cables going into an Extended Definition capable television running at 480i (because at the time I was dragging my PS3 to and from school, where 480i over component cables was the only option) so maybe there's hope yet for using a PS3, but it's not worth the effort right now considering how fucking cheap PS2s are.

[Friendly]

I wouldn't trust a ps3 for playing a challenging shmup at all.

No reason to go overboard. PS3 games are fine; there are even fighting game tournaments played on PS3s.
The lag discussed here only applies to PS1/2 shmups on PS3, and only really matters if you don't have a lagless setup, as far as I can tell.

[zaphod]

Well i meant the ps1/ps2 ones of course.

The 30 fps DDR games had much tighter timing windows then 5 mix and after, so that's why they are unplayable unless you have 0 audio lag and can dance to the music instead of the arrows.

IIdx? forget it. do not even try without a CRT and an actual ps2. no amount of lag correction can help a keysounded game.

[lawnspic]

I know the Emotion engine was stripped from the Ps3 but how are Ps1 games handled. Is it hardware based (onboard Ps1 hardware like the Ps2) or strictly through software emulation. Wikipedia does not explain yet they have Ps2 backward compatibility info.

[Ex-Cyber]

PS1 is all software. If it were hardware they'd practically need to put PS1/2 controller ports and memory card slots on the console, Wii-style.