Akai Katana Shin PAL confirmed!

[TrevHead (TVR)]

My problem with DS was the lack of traditional stage progression for the difficulty. Half the game was boringly easy and the other was medium or hard depending on the suicide bullets. It didnt help that I couldnt get into the scoring.

While I was one of those going nuts over the slowdown issue before the PAL release, I can actually see the original NA version more enjoyable for playing no suicide bullet runs. Ild still rather have an accurate arcade port though and am happy CAVE put the slowdown in.

[MR_Soren]

I'm guessing I'm in the majority group that thinks the both of yous are mad - I just can't see Deathsmiles being playable with no slowdown at Rank 3, but then most people seem to say something to the lines of "hey Deathsmiles is easy, I totally 1CCed it in less than 10 goes hitting Rank 1 and Rank 2" while never actually having seen suicide bullets and thus not seen any logic to the slowdown = playability thesis.

I am not a top-level player and I've had no experience with the arcade version. I generally stay out of Death Mode, only picking Level 3 four times in a typical run and avoiding the bonus stage. My opinion, playing like this, is that a lot of the slowdown added by the patch was excessive and made the game less fun.

I also believe people wouldn't have whined if the game was always like the NA version. The complaint wasn't that the game is too hard, but rather that it was different (and harder) than previously released versions. Regarding playability, there were people posting scores above 300 million before the patch, and I don't believe higher scores have started popping up since. At least not in the regular game. MBL Arrange Mode is perhaps a different story.

Distributors do not care if an identical game differentiates in price in another region, as I linked to. Whatever their prices are--sale or not--especially concerning import stores, are profit.

I never argued against this. The whole discussion was about why the European version of AKS probably won't be fully region-free. Once a game is fully region-free, it's not differentiating in price in another region. It's competing in the same region. Torisu already made it clear that this is very unlikely to happen. I merely wanted to suggest possible reasons for this.

Where does my speculation come from? Experience. Not in the games or publishing industry mind you, but I work with a company that does manufacturing. This company is very conscious of their customers, and being careful about not stepping on their toes is extremely important. For example, we refuse to produce or sell products that will compete directly with our bigger customers.** My primary job is at a retail business, and our orders from manufacturers are very much influenced by how they treat us and what buying and pricing policies they have in place. For example, we generally have minimum prices we can charge, and rely upon the fact that our competitors work within the same restrictions.

These are both relatively small family owned businesses doing single-digit millions in revenue each year, so things could be a lot different for a large corporation whose products are available all over the world.** Maybe CAVE doesn't care about their distributors and retailers and burns them at every opportunity to make a quick buck, but I wouldn't want to make such accusations when the evidence (AKA, no cross-region competition) suggests otherwise. Even if cheaper imports wouldn't do significant damage to anybody, which is quite possible, it may provide retailers with enough peace of mind to be worth it.


** I realize these things may change as businesses get bigger. For example, Samsung will sell LCDs and flash memory to Apple, but doesn't mind selling near copies of Apple's phone and tablet designs. I just don't see Cave's arcade ports being such a lucrative business that they can afford to be so harsh with the people they deal with.

Haven't been "angry" on this forum in a long time.

Sorry, poor word choice.

[StarCreator]

These are both relatively small family owned businesses doing single-digit millions in revenue each year, so things could be a lot different for a large corporation whose products are available all over the world.** Maybe CAVE doesn't care about their distributors and retailers and burns them at every opportunity to make a quick buck, but I wouldn't want to make such accusations when the evidence (AKA, no cross-region competition) suggests otherwise. Even if cheaper imports wouldn't do significant damage to anybody, which is quite possible, it may provide retailers with enough peace of mind to be worth it.

Wait, what?

No one is accusing CAVE of potentially burning their customers. Akai Katana Shin came out in May, where it enjoyed at most 1 week of sales at any quantifiable level. If any retailers are still sitting on unsold stock, they burned themselves by ordering too many.

Your entire argument is pretty much nulled by the fact that the game is out of print. It's not out of print because CAVE is out to screw anyone, it's out of print because everyone who cares to own a copy already owns a copy. Introducing a duplicate product into a market with zero demand for said product isn't going to hurt anyone.

My personal reasons for even suggesting the unlock is purely as a matter of convenience for me and others who use a Japanese 360 but don't reside in Japan (a case shared between a handful of posters here) - if it doesn't cost them anything to do it, it would be nice, but apparently there's enough technical barriers that it's not so simple to do. At this point, I wish I had kept my mouth shut.

[Gus]

Granted, I was shit at the game and could barely manage a death mode 1cc but I really never noticed much of a difference between pre and post-patch DS aside from it taking a long ass time to get through the Ice Palace with the patch.

[MR_Soren]

Your entire argument is pretty much nulled by the fact that the game is out of print. It's not out of print because CAVE is out to screw anyone, it's out of print because everyone who cares to own a copy already owns a copy. Introducing a duplicate product into a market with zero demand for said product isn't going to hurt anyone.

I don't think being out of print is very relevant here. It's pretty common for niche games to go out of print immediately, yet still be stocked for many months after release. It's only been out for six months. NCSX, Play-asia, Amazon.co.jp, and Solaris Japan have the game in stock. I've never seen a CAVE game in Japan that didn't eventually sell out everywhere. If that suddenly changed for AKS, retailers would reduce future orders.

Neither of us have the actual data used to make these decisions, so further discussion seems pointless. However, if your reasoning was correct, wouldn't all of the Western CAVE ports be region free? It's pretty trivial to make a region-free game. Region-locking is a business decision. If it's not CAVE's decision, perhaps it is Microsoft's. Perhaps Microsoft doesn't want to give Japanese retailers any more reasons to abandon the platform.

[xbl0x180]

A lot of those region-f***ed games aren't ever going to be ported over outside of Japan, though. What's the "business" sense in that?

[Ranmaru]

Can't wait for Akai Katana Shin! I've got so much love for Rising Star Games right now. Just picked up DDP:Resurrection for Xbox360, I only have a European Xbox so I'm very grateful for all these ports and region-free titles. Long may they continue!

[MR_Soren]

A lot of those region-f***ed games aren't ever going to be ported over outside of Japan, though. What's the "business" sense in that?

They probably over-estimated publisher interest in the Western regions. I wish they kept making the games region-free like Mushi Futari, and I hope to fuck that they don't region-lock the new Ibara port if it ever happens.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Yeah it is a shame Galuda2 and Futari will never see a PAL release, but making them RF will have helped them gain a foothold in the western market.

Theres other cave titles RSG could pick up, like a boxed version of Deathsmiles 2X, make it dual regoin for the us collectors, plus ketsui if they can wrangle a deal with 5pb

Imo if CAVE plan on supporting the 360, theyld be better off porting the original Mushimisama and Espgaluda to the xbox, add HD and extra modes like the matsui version.

But I am letting my expectations run wild, but its nice to see that RSG are happy to give us qualty shmups, I hope DFK and AKS makes them a pile of money, they deserve it

and I hope to fuck that they don't region-lock the new Ibara port if it ever happens.

Say what? ibara port?

[AntiFritz]

Say what? ibara port?

Probably development hell like the dangun port.

[mesh control]

mythical Ibara port.

[MR_Soren]

Say what? ibara port?

Probably development hell like the dangun port.

It's one of those things they mentioned wanting to do some time ago. Would have been Ibara + Ibara Kuro. And yeah, probably mentioned it at the same time as the Dangun port we haven't seen yet.

[Deca]

Yagawa Museum Vol. 2

[Estebang]

An Ibara port would likely be on XBLA--it was a choice on the Japanese poll that resulted in the Guwange port, after all.

[gray117]

Neither of us have the actual data used to make these decisions, so further discussion seems pointless. However, if your reasoning was correct, wouldn't all of the Western CAVE ports be region free? It's pretty trivial to make a region-free game. Region-locking is a business decision. If it's not CAVE's decision, perhaps it is Microsoft's. Perhaps Microsoft doesn't want to give Japanese retailers any more reasons to abandon the platform.

It's cave's choice. And if they're lucky enough to find and broker a deal with someone like rising star then consumers get the benefit. There are some marginal issues that would need consideration if going region free, but they're not prohibitive, although possibly annoying for someone like cave.

I don't think anyone at Microsoft cares what happens with this game as long as it's not obviously detrimental to the wider brand [ie. works and isn't a porno]. It's a niche game, even in Japan.

Region free games will reduce the potential of a small foreign publisher being interested, and may reflect which franchises Cave suspects appeals to only small numbers of westerners... But I think they change their mind every two seconds on this, so I don't think you could call this a plan/scheme...

No one's going to get purposefully 'burnt'. Anyone who grey area imports does so at a certain risk and clearly hopes to serve a very niche market. Bigger retailers will ultimately exchange unsold stock for new off their distributors. Fans will likely enjoy their product whether they got it cheaply or for more, but earlier.

Unless a print run sells out quick - any unsold will likely get stored, before eventually being sold cheap, exchanged, or straight up garbaged/recycled. Most likely in AKS's case it will remain limited and collect-able enough to retain some value even if region free/platinum etc skus are available.

If this was MW3 - pricing, region control and services would be more of a controlled issue - but of course releases would also be near simultaneous too.

[BPzeBanshee]

Yagawa Museum Vol. 2

I know you were joking, but I'd totally buy that and Volume 1 if it included a legit copy of Recca.

[torisuRSG]

... Neither of us have the actual data used to make these decisions, so further discussion seems pointless. However, if your reasoning was correct, wouldn't all of the Western CAVE ports be region free? It's pretty trivial to make a region-free game. Region-locking is a business decision. If it's not CAVE's decision, perhaps it is Microsoft's. Perhaps Microsoft doesn't want to give Japanese retailers any more reasons to abandon the platform.

Well, ultimately the decision is Microsoft's. What happens is that the publisher discusses with Microsoft why he wants to have a region-free game.

[Zeron]

Yagawa Museum Vol. 2

Haha you wish

[StarCreator]

Well, ultimately the decision is Microsoft's. What happens is that the publisher discusses with Microsoft why he wants to have a region-free game.

Sorry for the further derail, but I'm a little worried if this policy had taken hold globally - NTSC U/C games working in NTSC J by default is the whole reason Japanese 360 ownership is practical for most of us, and if the decision to open games to NTSC J has to be discussed with Microsoft on a case by case basis rather than being the default, we're in for a world of hurt when it comes to finding games we can actually play. Thanks for the insight... I guess if this is something I have to worry about in the future, then that PS3 is going to get more use than I thought.

[torisuRSG]

Well, ultimately the decision is Microsoft's. What happens is that the publisher discusses with Microsoft why he wants to have a region-free game.

Sorry for the further derail, but I'm a little worried if this policy had taken hold globally - NTSC U/C games working in NTSC J by default is the whole reason Japanese 360 ownership is practical for most of us, and if the decision to open games to NTSC J has to be discussed with Microsoft on a case by case basis rather than being the default, we're in for a world of hurt when it comes to finding games we can actually play. Thanks for the insight... I guess if this is something I have to worry about in the future, then that PS3 is going to get more use than I thought.

I should say (and confess) I didn't know NTSC U/C games worked on NTSC J by default.

I should have made clear I was talking from a European perspective.

[Gus]

Well, ultimately the decision is Microsoft's. What happens is that the publisher discusses with Microsoft why he wants to have a region-free game.

Sorry for the further derail, but I'm a little worried if this policy had taken hold globally - NTSC U/C games working in NTSC J by default is the whole reason Japanese 360 ownership is practical for most of us, and if the decision to open games to NTSC J has to be discussed with Microsoft on a case by case basis rather than being the default, we're in for a world of hurt when it comes to finding games we can actually play. Thanks for the insight... I guess if this is something I have to worry about in the future, then that PS3 is going to get more use than I thought.

Not for me. I couldn't care less if I can't play one of the countless shitty game-movies coming out these days. I'm one of those idiots who bought a US 360 and only plays Cave games on it BTW.

[dunpeal2064]

Well, ultimately the decision is Microsoft's. What happens is that the publisher discusses with Microsoft why he wants to have a region-free game.

Sorry for the further derail, but I'm a little worried if this policy had taken hold globally - NTSC U/C games working in NTSC J by default is the whole reason Japanese 360 ownership is practical for most of us, and if the decision to open games to NTSC J has to be discussed with Microsoft on a case by case basis rather than being the default, we're in for a world of hurt when it comes to finding games we can actually play. Thanks for the insight... I guess if this is something I have to worry about in the future, then that PS3 is going to get more use than I thought.

Not for me. I couldn't care less if I can't play one of the countless shitty game-movies coming out these days. I'm one of those idiots who bought a US 360 and only plays Cave games on it BTW.

Ha ha, I was one of these too. Decided there was no reason to keep the US console, so I ditched it and went jp

[Reaper gI]

A lot of those region-f***ed games aren't ever going to be ported over outside of Japan, though. What's the "business" sense in that?

They probably over-estimated publisher interest in the Western regions. I wish they kept making the games region-free like Mushi Futari, and I hope to fuck that they don't region-lock the new Ibara port if it ever happens.

Nope there's also the fact region unlocked games cost more to publish.
Microsoft insist on QA testing them for each region separately, and each regions Xbox live is different so have to host all the patches DLC etc. again.
Naturally all the actual numbers will be behind walls of NDAs.

[Casper<3]

first, ntsc games don't work on a ntsc-j console by default, that's a load of BS.

I have a JP 360 and a US 360.

the JP console is more of an arcade machine for shooters and fighters while the US machine is pretty much used only for RPGs and Medal of Honor.

Several big budget titles like Gears of War & Call of Duty Black Ops work on a NTSC machine because they're region free but a lot of games you would actually want to play (IE Catherine or Final Fantasy XIII) are region locked.

[StarCreator]

first, ntsc games don't work on a ntsc-j console by default, that's a load of BS.

I've owned a JP 360 for years and up until recently I could count the number of NTSC U/C releases I've encountered that don't work on it on two hands. The vast majority of games work on it fine, but I'm noticing a trend of region locking becoming a little more common lately, which was why I asked if there was a change in policy. But for the most part, I can just buy any random title off the shelf and not worry about it working, big budget or no.

Nope there's also the fact region unlocked games cost more to publish.
Microsoft insist on QA testing them for each region separately, and each regions Xbox live is different so have to host all the patches DLC etc. again.
Naturally all the actual numbers will be behind walls of NDAs.

What's your source on this?

[substancej]

Nope there's also the fact region unlocked games cost more to publish.
Microsoft insist on QA testing them for each region separately, and each regions Xbox live is different so have to host all the patches DLC etc. again.
Naturally all the actual numbers will be behind walls of NDAs.

What's your source on this?

Hidden behind walls of NDAs. Isn't that conveniently unverifiable.

[bcass]

Cave themselves IIRC. Wasn't it mentioned in an old blog post? He's not making it up, I clearly remember them stating that there were costs associated with making a title region free (at least for Japanese devs)

[Estebang]

Wonder if Microsoft Japan's new ban on region-free games would get in the way of Rising Star.

[StarCreator]

Wonder if Microsoft Japan's new ban on region-free games would get in the way of Rising Star.

Wait, what's this about?

Cave themselves IIRC. Wasn't it mentioned in an old blog post? He's not making it up, I clearly remember them stating that there were costs associated with making a title region free (at least for Japanese devs)

I remember that blog post too, but I took it to mean there were additional costs to approve a game to be released in a market it hadn't yet been released in. Could be wrong though, but given the sheer amount of NTSC U/C releases that work on NTSC J without issue I doubt there's a cost barrier at least stateside.

[Estebang]

G.Rev confirmed in that Facebook post that Microsoft Japan is no longer allowing any games to be region-free; they clearly wanted Under Defeat to be unlocked. For all we know, this could apply to games released in all regions.