While I hope this will become a general discussion of scoring mechanics, I'm currently trying to come up with some of my own, and I think I have some ideas so far, I just wanted to get some ideas on what sounds good and what doesn't.
Cavadius, being a Gradius style game (with a manic shooter approach) has been difficult to come up with unique scoring mechanics for, but I think I have a few ideas, some implemented, some not. I'd like to get some opinions on these before going into a more general discussion about some good means for scoring.
-Combo System-
The heart of Cavadius' scoring system. Rapid kills, a-la DDP, give additional points. At first, you get 100 points per hit in a combo, upon reaching 11 hits, this doubles to 200, then 400 at 21 hits, etc. When your combo ends, the total points of the combo are added onto your score. This is implemented.
-Gauge Multiplier-
Not implemented, currently in theoretical stages. Right now, the idea I have is that this would be another Combo multiplier effect. Basically, we all know the Power Gauge rolls over from ? to S when you get a capsule, I figured that rather than just having players keep their gauge at ? all the time for shields, I might encourage them to grab as many capsules as possible with this idea. Basically, every time your gauge rolls over from ? to S, you'll get a multiplier added to your combo bonus. For example, roll over once, you get an x2 bonus, so a 10 hit combo (Normally worth +1000) would then be worth +2000. Continue doing gauge rollovers, and you get a bigger multiplier, however, breaking this chain by using a powerup will reset your multiplier to x1. The question I have is, does this sound like a good idea, and more importantly, should this multiplier carry over between levels, or simply reset to x1 after each stage? (If it didn't, I'm sure the multipliers would get utterly insane, I honestly would be expecting things like x30 to x50, which would result in some enormous scores).
-End of Stage Bonuses-
There are two bonuses recieved at the end of a stage. The first is Max Hitx1000, the second is Boss Destroy Time (The lower this is, the better your bonus, if it exceeds the time allowed, you recieve no bonus). You are then given a grade of D to S based on your level performance. Currently, the grade does not impact your score, I was debating if some kind of grade bonus should be applied.
-Endgame Bonuses-
Grant a set amount of points for each life remaining. Can't think of much else.
As you can see, Cavadius will be relying heavily on the combo system, which seems to have worked in playtesting so far (Some people have already gotten 100+ combos in the trial version, which shows it does work). I'm wondering if when all's said and done, if this will be a good scoring system in that it reflects the skill of the player.
Okay! Now that we've got that beast of a topic out of the way, the broader discussion...What else do you guys think make for good means of scoring points? I'm talking things like medals, grazing, etc.
Scoring Mechanics (General & Focused Discussion)
Scoring Mechanics (General & Focused Discussion)
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for the combo system, why not just take DDP´s original approach? Each hit is worth 100 points multiplied with its number, so you get 100 points for the first hit, 200 points for the next, 300 for the third and so on.
The gauge multiplier sounds like an excellent idea, and I wouldn´t worry about it getting too high except for one aspect: your score counter might run out if the overall score gets too high. Long integer variables max out at about 2 billion, so you might think about reducing the basic hit value from 100 to 10.
In general, score systems should reflect player skill adequately, not arbitrarily. There should be several alternate ways to score, and preferably, the player should never be able to get a perfect score, for example, if you want to reward hit rate, place enemies in a way 100% just can´t be achieved. This improves longevity seriously. Every bonus should be in proportion to the skill required to get it, so for example your gauge multiplier is something that needs to reset when dying, but not after a stage. However, you should make sure the player has alternate ways to score after dying, in order to make the effort worthwhile even after dying once. One thing that´s very important when you have a DDP style chain system is balancing the difficulty of achieving chains. You don´t want some short chains to be very hard, while a few long chains can be done left-handedly, because that wouldn´t motivate anyone to struggle with the hard chains.
Great topic, I´m going to think about it some more time before posting again.
The gauge multiplier sounds like an excellent idea, and I wouldn´t worry about it getting too high except for one aspect: your score counter might run out if the overall score gets too high. Long integer variables max out at about 2 billion, so you might think about reducing the basic hit value from 100 to 10.
In general, score systems should reflect player skill adequately, not arbitrarily. There should be several alternate ways to score, and preferably, the player should never be able to get a perfect score, for example, if you want to reward hit rate, place enemies in a way 100% just can´t be achieved. This improves longevity seriously. Every bonus should be in proportion to the skill required to get it, so for example your gauge multiplier is something that needs to reset when dying, but not after a stage. However, you should make sure the player has alternate ways to score after dying, in order to make the effort worthwhile even after dying once. One thing that´s very important when you have a DDP style chain system is balancing the difficulty of achieving chains. You don´t want some short chains to be very hard, while a few long chains can be done left-handedly, because that wouldn´t motivate anyone to struggle with the hard chains.
Great topic, I´m going to think about it some more time before posting again.
I had this idea of a Raizing-style Medals system - incremental, from 100pts to 10,000pts or higher (in the case of Bakraid) - but with a little twist. Using a screenclearing bomb wil convert all the bullets onscreen to Inverse Medals, or Medals that take off a portion of your score based on your current Medal value - if you have 5,000pts Medals value currently, then every Inverse Medal you (accidentally) pick up will knock off 5,000pts.
A little weird, I know. But I think in effect it doesn't discourage you from using your bombs to keep yourself alive if you're a survivalist, but for scoreattacker, playing without bombs is a must.
A little weird, I know. But I think in effect it doesn't discourage you from using your bombs to keep yourself alive if you're a survivalist, but for scoreattacker, playing without bombs is a must.
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sniperwolf
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 10:44 pm
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I like the gauge multiplier idea. All too often in Gradius III, I'd just let my gauge "idle" on top of the ? space, in the event that I would need to recharge my shield at some point. This would've given me a good incentive to collect powerup capsules instead of idling... good idea. 
I'm establishing something like that in my engine, except instead of points, you'll get access to higher level equipment [think like Gradius... uhh... 4? 2? Whichever one you could get upgraded forms of your weapons in].
I'm establishing something like that in my engine, except instead of points, you'll get access to higher level equipment [think like Gradius... uhh... 4? 2? Whichever one you could get upgraded forms of your weapons in].How do I wrote code?
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sniperwolf
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 10:44 pm
- Location: Oregon
There is a unique (to my knowledge) scoring system in Nullpointer's great score based Endless Fire (http://www.odessadesign.co.uk/codespace/endless.htm).
from Codespace:
I too am working on a score based shooter, but am undecided how to create an effective score system.
The best I have come up with is using a hit % to increase a multiplier.
Essentialy each time a player shot connects with a target, the % increases, and with each miss it decreases. Destroying an enemy will give the player the current % value. Different weapons will then be used to suit different enemy types (eg, a spread for swarms, and a stream for single tough enemies)
from Codespace:
It's also worth mentioning that the closer you are to an enemy (or quicker, i'm not sure), the more cells or stars are released.Z- fire spread
X- fire stream
Scoring:
Each enemy destroyed with Z-fire releases green multiplier cells (multiplier descreases over time)
Each enemy destroyed with X-fire releases yellow score stars (worth current multiplier)
Shoot with Z to raise multiplier then shoot with X to increase score
I too am working on a score based shooter, but am undecided how to create an effective score system.
The best I have come up with is using a hit % to increase a multiplier.
Essentialy each time a player shot connects with a target, the % increases, and with each miss it decreases. Destroying an enemy will give the player the current % value. Different weapons will then be used to suit different enemy types (eg, a spread for swarms, and a stream for single tough enemies)
GamerTag: TrevorMcFurr
"If she makes it, she should be a perfectly normal and healthy cat. Other than having two faces."
"If she makes it, she should be a perfectly normal and healthy cat. Other than having two faces."
Don't ask how I came up with this. All I can figure is that it involved extreme boredom in school.
Anyway, a system I pieced together was an "intensity" system. The intensity is a percentage--5 digit, 2 decimal (xxxxx.xx%) which plays three roles:
1) Survival: If your intensity hits 0, you have a set time (10 seconds) to recover it to 10% or greater, otherwise it's game over. I came up with some justification about this, something along the lines of how it powers the engines or something "trivial" like that. Each death would cause a certain drop in intensity based on the amount--high intensity would mean a great loss, low intensity would mean a trivial one. Also, to counteract the fact that it's difficult to actually 'die out', there would be a very limited invincibility period.
2) Multiplier: The higher the intensity, the more points you stand to gain. Everything that gives points will be multiplied by the intensity meter, and therefore high intensity means high point gains.
3) Rank: The most important thing about the intensity counter is that it would directly control rank. The better you are doing, the more agressive the enemies and bullet patterns would be, likely causing a death (or several). The way I came up with had 10-12 rank tiers that fit certain ranges of intensity.
How this all ties together is basically thus: The closer you are to enemies, the more intensity they are worth--scaling up the rank and your scoring potential. Idling or dying reduces intensity, and the longer you idle, the faster the intensity drops (the usefulness of this later). End of level bonuses would be based on intensity, the average proximity to enemies, time in which a boss was destroyed, and death count (or lack thereof). Obviously, the first three would increase, and the latter would significantly decrease.
Two other things I remember noting on all my design doodles: Enemies give points before intensity is added, bosses after; and I had some sort of hidden final boss if you ran out of intensity during a certain period of the standard final boss--and if you unlock it, there'd be some kind of energy reaction or something similar which would set intensity to a full 99999.99% during the fight, causing quite a bit of hell.
Maybe once I can program I'll make a shmup using this system. Here's to hoping, huh?
~EI
Anyway, a system I pieced together was an "intensity" system. The intensity is a percentage--5 digit, 2 decimal (xxxxx.xx%) which plays three roles:
1) Survival: If your intensity hits 0, you have a set time (10 seconds) to recover it to 10% or greater, otherwise it's game over. I came up with some justification about this, something along the lines of how it powers the engines or something "trivial" like that. Each death would cause a certain drop in intensity based on the amount--high intensity would mean a great loss, low intensity would mean a trivial one. Also, to counteract the fact that it's difficult to actually 'die out', there would be a very limited invincibility period.
2) Multiplier: The higher the intensity, the more points you stand to gain. Everything that gives points will be multiplied by the intensity meter, and therefore high intensity means high point gains.
3) Rank: The most important thing about the intensity counter is that it would directly control rank. The better you are doing, the more agressive the enemies and bullet patterns would be, likely causing a death (or several). The way I came up with had 10-12 rank tiers that fit certain ranges of intensity.
How this all ties together is basically thus: The closer you are to enemies, the more intensity they are worth--scaling up the rank and your scoring potential. Idling or dying reduces intensity, and the longer you idle, the faster the intensity drops (the usefulness of this later). End of level bonuses would be based on intensity, the average proximity to enemies, time in which a boss was destroyed, and death count (or lack thereof). Obviously, the first three would increase, and the latter would significantly decrease.
Two other things I remember noting on all my design doodles: Enemies give points before intensity is added, bosses after; and I had some sort of hidden final boss if you ran out of intensity during a certain period of the standard final boss--and if you unlock it, there'd be some kind of energy reaction or something similar which would set intensity to a full 99999.99% during the fight, causing quite a bit of hell.
Maybe once I can program I'll make a shmup using this system. Here's to hoping, huh?
~EI
Yo, doing a much needed reply for this thread. One, because I think this discussion needs more, well...Discussion. Two, I'm making some changes to Cavadius' scoring system, and I wanted to get an idea of what everyone thinks of the current system I have in place. (Some of it isn't actually coded yet, and is just conceptual).
-Basic scoring-
Enemies all have set point values, points are earned based on the enemy's value.
-Combos-
A modification of DDP's system. Every hit in a combo adds to a bonus, a pot if you will, that you recieve when the combo ends (Time runs out). Every hit initially adds 100 points to the bonus, and after 10 hits, the value is multiplied by 2, resulting in 200 points for every hit after. Every 10 hits, up to 110 hits total, the points earned per hit get multiplied. After 110 hits, the amount gained per hit is constant.
-Combo Multiplier-
By not using powerups, and rolling the Power Gauge over from ? to S, you'll get a multiplier added to your combo. The combo's final result will be multiplied by this number. IE, if you have a +5000 bonus and an x2 multiplier, your combo will be worth 10000 points. The multiplier has a cap of 5x, any further rollovers will be an instant +100000 points to your score.
-Medals-
Medals are a new feature I've just added, and are still being tweaked. Right now, any bullets destroyed by a Mega Crush will turn into Medals, though this isn't without a cost, as ENEMIES destroyed by a Mega Crush will NOT count towards your combo hits. While your combo's time will be extended, no combo hits/points are actually awarded, so you get an interesting situation...Decide which is more valuble, 100 point medals for every destroyed bullet? Or the combo? Or perhaps you can aim for both? I figured this might be way to make scoring reliant on more than just the combo system. Another idea for medals is large enemies. Based on how quickly you kill them, they'll drop a cluster of medals. Killing them quickly will give you a ton, taking awhile will make them only drop half of what they normally do, and taking REALLY long makes them drop only one medal, period.
-End of stage bones-
There are three bonuses after a stage is cleared...
Max Hits-Bonus is your highest combo in the stage, multiplied by 100. IE, 50 hits=50000 points.
Boss Destroy Time-Has a point range from 200000 to 0 (Though this can vary from boss to boss), depending on how fast you kill the boss. Every second after "par" takes away from this bonus.
Medals-Total medals collectedx100, though your medals collected reset to 0 whenever you die. If you can No Miss a stage, you basically get all the points you earned via your medals doubled.
Overall, how does this system sound so far, given the revisions? Think it needs any more work? Is the Medal System needed?
-Basic scoring-
Enemies all have set point values, points are earned based on the enemy's value.
-Combos-
A modification of DDP's system. Every hit in a combo adds to a bonus, a pot if you will, that you recieve when the combo ends (Time runs out). Every hit initially adds 100 points to the bonus, and after 10 hits, the value is multiplied by 2, resulting in 200 points for every hit after. Every 10 hits, up to 110 hits total, the points earned per hit get multiplied. After 110 hits, the amount gained per hit is constant.
-Combo Multiplier-
By not using powerups, and rolling the Power Gauge over from ? to S, you'll get a multiplier added to your combo. The combo's final result will be multiplied by this number. IE, if you have a +5000 bonus and an x2 multiplier, your combo will be worth 10000 points. The multiplier has a cap of 5x, any further rollovers will be an instant +100000 points to your score.
-Medals-
Medals are a new feature I've just added, and are still being tweaked. Right now, any bullets destroyed by a Mega Crush will turn into Medals, though this isn't without a cost, as ENEMIES destroyed by a Mega Crush will NOT count towards your combo hits. While your combo's time will be extended, no combo hits/points are actually awarded, so you get an interesting situation...Decide which is more valuble, 100 point medals for every destroyed bullet? Or the combo? Or perhaps you can aim for both? I figured this might be way to make scoring reliant on more than just the combo system. Another idea for medals is large enemies. Based on how quickly you kill them, they'll drop a cluster of medals. Killing them quickly will give you a ton, taking awhile will make them only drop half of what they normally do, and taking REALLY long makes them drop only one medal, period.
-End of stage bones-
There are three bonuses after a stage is cleared...
Max Hits-Bonus is your highest combo in the stage, multiplied by 100. IE, 50 hits=50000 points.
Boss Destroy Time-Has a point range from 200000 to 0 (Though this can vary from boss to boss), depending on how fast you kill the boss. Every second after "par" takes away from this bonus.
Medals-Total medals collectedx100, though your medals collected reset to 0 whenever you die. If you can No Miss a stage, you basically get all the points you earned via your medals doubled.
Overall, how does this system sound so far, given the revisions? Think it needs any more work? Is the Medal System needed?
YOU ARE APPROACHING THE TARGET OF ATTACK! THE MISSION STARTS NOW! ARE YOU READY?!
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captain ahar
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that chaining bonus proposal sounds pretty good, i still think the ddp system is mechanically better (the bonuses seem like they would be less satisfying with the system you propose).
the combo meter rollover is a great idea. personally, i think the meter should reset after every level (combo value, and meter placement). this would make score attack easier to implement as well (it would seem).
and i'd keep the medals system. it would add a nice little aside to those moments when bombing is advantagous. honestly, it seems like the scoring contained in the medals could use a bit more depth. i understand you probably aren't looking to make this into a raizing-style medalling system, but after releasing a medal, it would be fun to have some motivation to collect them.
this seems like it would make an interesting combination with chaining, and making sure you score well on medals, but are still able to set yourself up to continue a chain.
and nice work on the trial (i've not spoken up about it before). it's still fun to play, and that deserves some congratulations.
the combo meter rollover is a great idea. personally, i think the meter should reset after every level (combo value, and meter placement). this would make score attack easier to implement as well (it would seem).
and i'd keep the medals system. it would add a nice little aside to those moments when bombing is advantagous. honestly, it seems like the scoring contained in the medals could use a bit more depth. i understand you probably aren't looking to make this into a raizing-style medalling system, but after releasing a medal, it would be fun to have some motivation to collect them.
this seems like it would make an interesting combination with chaining, and making sure you score well on medals, but are still able to set yourself up to continue a chain.
and nice work on the trial (i've not spoken up about it before). it's still fun to play, and that deserves some congratulations.
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