Optoma HD3000

[fagin]

I was lucky enough to bag one of these off eBay last week. I paid £200 delivered so not a bad price.

Unit was delivered yesterday and I must say it is 100% MINTY MINT. You would think it was NOS.

If you've read Fudoh's site you would know all about this unit.

What can I say apart from what Fudoh has already said.....

Unit looks and feels awesome. Build quality is top notch.

240p handling is just plain "broken" via RGBs input, but we already know that.

240p handling via component looks very nice.

480i handling looks good (not had much chance to play with this to see how it compares to the EDGE).

480p handling and scaling is absolutely unreal!! It looks so pinsharp and pixel perfect. I have a few scalers now and this just beats everything I have concentrating on dealing with 480p signals.

[Fudoh]

If you have a 240p game which is actually running in 30fps instead of 60fps (e.g. the Metal Slug games on PS1/2) then the Optoma works very nicely for 240p as well.

You can check this thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthre ... ght=optoma for some info on a weird PS2 480i bug.

Also you might get some noise interference on the PS2. This can be solved by pulling the Y (luminance) pin out, so only the signal connects, but not the ground.

[fagin]

Interesting thread.

I must admit I was extremely impressed with the lack of "noise" via component.

I did try (for 240p through RGBs) adding my Sync Strike and Extron. Whilst I can get a signal the sync is bad...... the whole image violently shakes a couple of millimetres.

It's a shame about this 240p handling via RGBs.

[Fudoh]

I'm not sure if I ever tried 240p over RGBs. It's hardly worth the effort since 240p (via component) just isn't recognized as 240p, but is treated as 480i with broken drop shadows etc....

[HDgaming42]

Would love to hear anything you discover regarding 480i PS2 deinterlacing. S-Video works fine. Component is messed up as detailed in that thread...

[fagin]

Fudoh,

If you have a 240p game which is actually running in 30fps instead of 60fps (e.g. the Metal Slug games on PS1/2) then the Optoma works very nicely for 240p as wel.

since 240p (via component) just isn't recognized as 240p, but is treated as 480i with broken drop shadows etc....

Am I understanding from that, 30fps 240p material is fine via component but 60fps 240p material is treated as 480i via component.

What is the name of the 480i game you give in your example on the "other" thread with the 480i problems?

HDgaming42,
I'm not sure what else I will be able to add to the mix tbh. The only thing that crossed my mind was to transcode from component to VGA. Feed that in to the Extron (to see if the DDSP / ADSP processing helps the sync) and then feed in to the Optoma directly or by transcoding back to component. Unfortunately I have'nt got the appropriate transcoders to try that "chain".

I will have a play tonight, but I don't hold out much hope.

[Fudoh]

Am I understanding from that, 30fps 240p material is fine via component but 60fps 240p material is treated as 480i via component.

240p is always treated as 480i, but with 30fps game you get two identical fields/frames in a row, so there's hardly anything the processor can do wrong when weaving them together.

What is the name of the 480i game you give in your example on the "other" thread with the 480i problems?

Namco anniversary collection. The one with Ridge Racer, Mr. Driller etc.

[Fudoh]

From Konsolkongen:

Works:

Capcom Classics Collection Vol. 1 (PAL, 50Hz)
Capcom Classics Collection Vol. 2 (PAL, 50/60Hz and 480p)
Devil May Cry (PAL, 50Hz - 99% sure that there are no phasing errors here, the game just looks awful on its own )
ESPgaluda (JAP, 480i)
Guilty Gear XX Accent Core Plus (US, works in both 480i and 480p)
Gunbird Special Edition (1&2) (PAL, 60Hz)
King of Route 66 (PAL, 60Hz - Phasing errors on 50/60Hz select screen but looks great afterwards.)
Max Payne (PAL, 50Hz)
Metal Slug 4 (PAL, 60Hz - Looks beutiful even though the game was ported by retards and runs in 480i.)
Neo Contra (PAL, 60Hz)
Persona 3 (US)
Rez (PAL, 60Hz)
Sonic Riders (PAL, only 60Hz was tested)
SEGA Classics Collection (PAL, 50Hz)
Shadow Hearts (PAL, 50Hz - Hard to say. I think the game is just scaled poorly. Changing the Phase setting did nothing.)

Has Phasing errors:

Astro Boy (PAL, 50/60Hz)
Castlevania (PAL, 60Hz)
Devil May Cry 2 (PAL 50/60Hz)
Devil May Cry 3 (Not LE) (PAL, 60Hz)
Final Fantasy X2 (PAL, 50Hz)
Final Fantasy XII (PAL, 50Hz)
GrimGrimoire (PAL, 50Hz)
Guitar Hero (PAL, 50Hz - Really hard to tell as the game looks so messy. There are phasing errors on the first loading screen)
Guitar Hero Rocks The 80's (Phasing errors in 50Hz, has 480p so nobody cares.)
Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater (PAL, 50Hz)
Metal Gear Solid 3: Subsistence (US)
Metal Gear Solid 3: Subsistence (PAL, 50Hz)
Metal Slug 3 (PAL, 60Hz - Fine at loading screens but has phasing errors in the menus and in gameplay. Hard to notice when playing though.)
Monster Hunter Demo from DMC3 (PAL, 60Hz)
Odin Sphere (PAL, 60Hz)
Okami (PAL, 60Hz)
Phantasy Star Universe (PAL, 60Hz)
Phantasy Star Universe: Ambition of the Illuminus (PAL promo, 60Hz)
Psi-Ops (PAL, 50/60Hz)
Resident Evil: Outbreak File #2 (PAL, 60Hz)
SEGA Superstars (PAL, 50Hz - Did not want to dig out my EyeToy but there was phasing errors at the warning screen.)
Shadow Hearts II (PAL, 50Hz - Title screen looks great but not ingame)
Shin Megami Tensei: Lucifers Call (PAL, 60Hz)
Transformers Demo (Not the Movie) (PAL, 60Hz)
Virtua Fighter 4: Evolution (PAL, 50/60Hz)

[Seraphic]

Congrats on finding one for such a low price (wish I could do the same in america). Would like to test some component 240p and hdmi 480p sources myself... might have to wait for the XRGB-mini and hope it works as well as the HD3000.

[HDgaming42]

What is the name of the 480i game you give in your example on the "other" thread with the 480i problems?

I was using Final Fantasy XII USA NTSC. None of my gear is hooked up at the moment. I can't remember if I tried forcing SoG RGB through my extron or not...

[SGGG2]

480p handling and scaling is absolutely unreal!! It looks so pinsharp and pixel perfect. I have a few scalers now and this just beats everything I have concentrating on dealing with 480p signals.

I think this should be qualified somewhat. The Optoma easily has the most even and accurate looking scaling out of all the devices I've tried, however, that doesn't mean it always looks the "best". It somehow manages to simultaneously look fairly sharp with well defined edges AND interpolated at the same time.

So, on something like Marvel Vs. Capcom 2 on Dreamcast, it's very CRT-ish in that regard -- the polygon edges on the background models are nice and smooth with no jaggies, but I definitely prefer the XRGB-3's B0 mode @ 1080p. In terms of definition and sharpness, the Optoma cannot touch B0, it's razor sharp. Gradius V forced into 480p looks unbelievable. It actually looks BAD through the HD3000.

Conversely, the sharpness of B0 isn't always desired. Some games, like Dead or Alive 2 (DC), Tokyo Extreme Racer 2 (DC), look dull and lifeless and benefit greatly from a softer scaling engine like the Gefen Scaler Plus or the HD3000. Other games, like ZOE 2 @ 480p, just look plain wrong due to the XRGB's uneven scaling (the XRGB appears to double and triple some lines, try this chain to see what I mean: 480p source > SLG3000 > XRGB B0 @ 1080p). And games like Shadow of the Colossus, take advantage of the innate softness of low-res CRT's, so they look like dirt in B0 but very nice on the Optoma.

I'm not crazy about the Optoma's scaling up the 240p line-doubled signal of the XRGB's B1 mode either, the Gefen looks much nicer to me. I chain the Gefen into the HD3000 to fine tune the image with scaling and masking, and it does a fantastic job.

Sorry to say, if you want the "best", you're going to end up with several different scalers, even for 480p.

[BuckoA51]

Sounds like the same one I was watching

[akumajo]

I just found an HD3000 for 120€ but seller say that there are problems (randomly working, sometimes need to be rebooted).

Does it sound like a defective unit or a bad user ?

[Fudoh]

sounds normal. Sometimes the OSD doesn't appear on mine, so I have to reboot once or more before it works.

[akumajo]

hey Fudoh

he said that the device is very sensitive and he must use this order :
- power on device
- sending external signal

if not using this order, "signal" is not accepted (he is not a gamer, homecinema user only)

so, should I take this deal?

[Fudoh]

at 120 EUR I would take it, just to play around with it a bit. I would suspect that he's having HDCP issues more than anything else. I doubt this falls under what you want to do with the machine.

PS: There are HD3000 units out there coming from projector bundles which are limited to 720p output. Pay attention to this.

[akumajo]

ok, i will take it.

I know what you mean but I'm not sure how to detect

On front, it say THEME-SCENE HD3000.



I saw other auctions with HD3000 + PROJECTOR but on front it say THEME-SCENE HD81 controller.

So, if XX CONTROLLER on front = 720p ?

[HDgaming42]

hey Fudoh

he said that the device is very sensitive and he must use this order :
- power on device
- sending external signal

if not using this order, "signal" is not accepted (he is not a gamer, homecinema user only)

so, should I take this deal?

I know you asked Fudoh, but thought I'd share my experiences. I often have to reboot mine. The power on sequence can be picky. Get used to performing factory resets. Is it still worth it? Absolutely.

Every processor I'd used up until getting the optoma left me very disappointed in how soft the picture became. I want big boxy pixels dammit!

The optoma delivers! Good luck!

[akumajo]

Ok, it looks like that same "problem". Now I just need to find out if it's 1080p or 720p model .

[fagin]

I've just used this with my XBOX360....... it's ******* stunning at upscaling in comparison to either my screen or scaler within the 360.

Setting the 360 output to 720p and having the Optoma set to 1080p for the native res of my screen, gives a sharper image than either the 360 can upscale or my screen can.

It's amazing the difference it makes to the image sharpness imo.

Using something like Tekken 6 shows the difference quite easily.

Is this just me?

[SGGG2]

I compared 720p my monitor, 360 and Optoma with Deathsmiles and didn't notice much of a difference, if anything. I'll compare Tekken 6 later tonight. Did you have motion blurring on or off? When it's on the internal resolution drops to 560p or something, and there's jaggies, but the animation is soooo much better.

[fagin]

Don't forget I get anal about this stuff at times.

Motion blur on or off makes no difference, to the difference. Any hard lines are sharper with the Optoma, which makes the image look sharper.... try piling on the sharpness.

I have just tried VF5 and the difference is still the same overall.

Image is crisper.

[SGGG2]

Well, Deathsmiles wasn't exactly the best game to test with...

My monitor has integral scaling over VGA or DVI, so there're times when the Optoma can't touch it... Have you messed around with B0 @1080p yet? If you don't have interference issues 480p is amazing with the titles I listed above. Way sharper than the Optoma.

[fagin]

Yes... I'm impressed with the sharpness of the B0 scaling, even if the actual accuracy of the scaling is a bit off.

However, I'm referring to upscaling an already HD output of 720p but to the native res of my screen @ 1080p.

The fact that the Optoma seems to scale sharper than even setting the 360 scaler to 1080p is quite suprising.... but perhaps I shouldn't be.

I also remember reading that Fudoh commented on the fact that setting the xbox output to 1080p (on games that arn't internally 1080p native - which let's be honest is a small amount) can give a performance hit on the game itself iirc.

[Fudoh]

This really comes down to a matter of taste. Yes, the XRGB-3's B0 is technically sharper, but the scaling is crappy, because the output pixels are rendered to different sizes depending on their input position (you mentioned this yourself already).

There's really no need to argue about this. If you like the Optoma, use it, if you don't, don't use it.

From all the *home cinema* processors the Optoma has the scaling engine best suited for graphics. As said before, I expect the XRGB-mini to be very similar in it's result (based on the Marvell G2 performance I've seen).

My 360p is usually running through my 50Pro with Edge Enhancement and Detail Enhancement both set to about -25. This is something you can't mimick using an Edge due to it's Gamemode restrictions. The funny thing about this is that it provides stunning results on 2D graphics (very Optoma-like), while it looks nasty on 3D graphics.

[fagin]

To be far I don't think anyone is "arguing".... just comparing.

I was just impressed to see a positive difference in reality.

[SGGG2]

Yeah, I'm not arguing about anything.

Due to Fudoh's excellent review, low availability and an expensive pricetag, I daresay the HD3000 has taken on near mythical status among retro gamers. I want to defuse that somewhat by pointing out while it's technically the best, it's not always the best looking, and you shouldn't expect as much. Other scalers have strong points as well.

[fagin]

Other scalers have strong points as well.

Just as well.... I have a flaming spare room full of them at the moment, no thanks to this forum and a certain individual! roflol

[fagin]

ok, i will take it.

I know what you mean but I'm not sure how to detect

On front, it say THEME-SCENE HD3000.



I saw other auctions with HD3000 + PROJECTOR but on front it say THEME-SCENE HD81 controller.

So, if XX CONTROLLER on front = 720p ?

Not that this may help you, but mine outputs @ 1080p and has not got the XX CONTROLLER bit on the front.

Easiest thing would be to ask the seller in reality.

[akumajo]

I bought it (120€ shipped). It was confirmed to be 1080p.
Now wait & see.