Gradius Discussion Thread

[Drum]

Derivative of what? It's a sequel in a sub-genre that Gradius created. You might as well say Strikers II is derivative of Strikers 1945.

Well, all the good parts are things that Gradius II already did, and everything it adds that is new is basically terrible. Gradius III and IV are definitely the 'dark ages' of the Gradius series (and I am personally not a huge fan of II either). Good thing Parodius was there to pick up the slack.

SNES Gradius III is fine though, if you can deal with that awful slowdown.

[TonK]

I watched a 2-all clear of DoDonPachi: Daioujou yesterday, it doesn't look overly difficult to me.

Dude, are you being serious?
Like, is this meant as a sarcastic joke?

If you are unsure as to whether that's sarcasm or not then there is more to worry about than selling the PCB.

:facepalm:

[Herr Schatten]

Derivative of what? It's a sequel in a sub-genre that Gradius created. You might as well say Strikers II is derivative of Strikers 1945.

Well, all the good parts are things that Gradius II already did, and everything it adds that is new is basically terrible. Gradius III and IV are definitely the 'dark ages' of the Gradius series

I couldn't have said it better.

[TarkanX]

I know it has already been said, but to win in Gradius 3 (Arcade), you need to stick to trial and error, which means you need to have a lot of time on your hands. The first level isn't hard, the 2nd level is much harder, but you can beat it with experience (Aquas, this level is probably my favorite level in Gradius 3, too), the 3rd is a significant step in difficulty and is like a barrier that you have to break through to see what Gradius 3 arcade really has to offer. After that, the difficulty shoots up so dramatically, that you will feel like breaking something or quitting... it is up to you to decide if you want to go on.

Gradius 3 really has quite a bit of "gotcha" areas, where you can be killed "randomly" even if you are familiar with the area. You also have to play assertive-aggressive. If you play too passively (letting the game come to you), the enemies will fill up the screen with bullets (or whatever), and because the bullet fire is random, it is very hard to get out of the way; the best way to deal with this is to destroy it before it becomes out of control. Gradius 3 wouldn't be so difficult if you lost and were stripped of all your power-ups. Once you lose once in any stage past stage one (maybe 2, 3, 4, and 5, but it depends on where you are placed), you simply can't win, and the best scenario then is to either play through it and gain experience about the level (not expecting to win), or just reset the game.

I can understand why people hate this game, but for me, as a kid, I too played Gradius 3 on the SNES, and wanted to see what the arcade version was like. It can be one of the most gut-wrenching games, but one of the most satisfying games if you can even get past the higher levels. If the dictionary had a term for "Survival Shmup", there would be a picture of Gradius 3 (Arcade).

[Chaos Phoenixma]

Bubble level would be a bit better if I didn't have to mash the crap out of the shot and missile buttons while dodging everything. I should try this out on MAME sometime and see if there are any effective autofire options.

After the bubble level, the game actually becomes fun again.

Sadly, I've only been past bubble level in a run once, and even then not on MAME where there's less slowdown than the PS2/PSP versions. After doing some practice on Stage 3 via a PSP save file, I think I could theoretically get to stage 5 right now, but those damn bubbles always make me ragequit. And then I'd have to not screw up stage 3 when I get past stage 2.

[sven666]

hey do you have Outzone yet Mike?

thats definetly one you should sink your teeth into otherwise, I think you'll really like it!

[Mortificator]

^ Outzone kicks ass.

Derivative of what? It's a sequel in a sub-genre that Gradius created. You might as well say Strikers II is derivative of Strikers 1945.

Well, all the good parts are things that Gradius II already did, and everything it adds that is new is basically terrible. Gradius III and IV are definitely the 'dark ages' of the Gradius series (and I am personally not a huge fan of II either). Good thing Parodius was there to pick up the slack.

SNES Gradius III is fine though, if you can deal with that awful slowdown.

See, I would rather play Gradius III or IV than II, because while those games recycle a ton of content, they add some flavor to II's vanilla. Gradius II had the bog standard original speed stage, while III had a chase view stage & final escape and IV had a maze with wheels and levers. II added a couple of things to the first Gradius Moai stage, but nothing as fancy as Moais spitting out other Moais or regenerating T-1000 style. All the bosses from II can be fought across later games. All the weapons reappear multiple times.

That's also why I have very little interest in SNES Gradius III; it replaces some of the unique elements from arcade III with their standardized II predecessors. Gradius II-clone speed stage. Gradius II-style walkers instead of Shadow Gear. Gradius II-based Moai boss.

This is a series that's been hurt by the designers sticking so close to formula. The four numbered arcade games have so many similarities that after you've played through one, you enjoy diminishing returns for each you complete after. There was less creativity with each sequel, but the accrual of creativity means that if I was only going to play a single title, I'd play... well, I'd play Gaiden. But if I was limited to the arcades and single-player, I'd play IV.

[BIL]

Sadly, I've only been past bubble level in a run once, and even then not on MAME where there's less slowdown than the PS2/PSP versions.

Just so I know my memory's not failing me, slowdown can be disabled entirely in the PS2 port, right?

[Chaos Phoenixma]

Pretty sure it can, though I only have the PSP port, but you can disable the slowdown on that as well.

I think I'd prefer the slowdown to help with dodging though, but wait level 1 doesn't have enough slowdown compared to Arcade and wait level 2 has more. The scoreboard here apparently allows any of the settings though.

I would still switch to MAME once I get a good control setup for it, but for now I'm fine with practicing on PSP.

[BIL]

Oh yeah, I'd forgotten about Alamone's PS2 no-wait run. I wonder if he ever got that 1CC.

[Drum]

I must be weird because I find the bubble stage really easy. As in, I find it easier than any level in any Gradius game ever and I think I only ever died on it a couple of times (except the boss which gave me an enormous amount of grief for some reason).

^ Outzone kicks ass.

Derivative of what? It's a sequel in a sub-genre that Gradius created. You might as well say Strikers II is derivative of Strikers 1945.

Well, all the good parts are things that Gradius II already did, and everything it adds that is new is basically terrible. Gradius III and IV are definitely the 'dark ages' of the Gradius series (and I am personally not a huge fan of II either). Good thing Parodius was there to pick up the slack.

SNES Gradius III is fine though, if you can deal with that awful slowdown.

See, I would rather play Gradius III or IV than II, because while those games recycle a ton of content, they add some flavor to II's vanilla. Gradius II had the bog standard original speed stage, while III had a chase view stage & final escape and IV had a maze with wheels and levers. II added a couple of things to the first Gradius Moai stage, but nothing as fancy as Moais spitting out other Moais or regenerating T-1000 style. All the bosses from II can be fought across later games. All the weapons reappear multiple times.

That's also why I have very little interest in SNES Gradius III; it replaces some of the unique elements from arcade III with their standardized II predecessors. Gradius II-clone speed stage. Gradius II-style walkers instead of Shadow Gear. Gradius II-based Moai boss.

This is a series that's been hurt by the designers sticking so close to formula. The four numbered arcade games have so many similarities that after you've played through one, you enjoy diminishing returns for each you complete after. There was less creativity with each sequel, but the accrual of creativity means that if I was only going to play a single title, I'd play... well, I'd play Gaiden. But if I was limited to the arcades and single-player, I'd play IV.

You are the only person in history to ever put the chase view stage as a selling point. The absence of that is one of the things that put the SNES version over the arcade.

[Aquas]

You are the only person in history to ever put the chase view stage as a selling point. The absence of that is one of the things that put the SNES version over the arcade.

The stage has good reason to be there specifically if you are recovering from a death in stage 3. If it wasn't there in that case, you'd be doomed at the boss of the maoi stage.

[Seahawk]

Oh yeah, I'd forgotten about Alamone's PS2 no-wait run. I wonder if he ever got that 1CC.

He did, the Type A run I posted is alamone's.

Gradius III - Type A - alamone
Gradius III - Type B - seahawk0027
Gradius III - Type C - BGRerobachi

[Chaos Phoenixma]

It's Wait level 2. Still impressive though.


To Seahawk, what was your consistency on each stage when you went for the 1cc?

I get Stage 1 right almost all the time now, but of course stage 2 I've only gotten past once. I've almost done it 2 other times just to die before the boss, which surprisingly isn't as hard as I thought it'd be.

I really would have more fun with this game if it weren't for the bubble stage. And obviously I'm nowhere near being able to get to the luckshit cube rush. That level must be so unfun to deal with.

[Seahawk]

It's Wait level 2. Still impressive though.

Bah, when it's only 1 of 3 full clears on Youtube it's impressive no matter what the setting.

To Seahawk, what was your consistency on each stage when you went for the 1cc?

I get Stage 1 right almost all the time now, but of course stage 2 I've only gotten past once. I've almost done it 2 other times just to die before the boss, which surprisingly isn't as hard as I thought it'd be.

I really would have more fun with this game if it weren't for the bubble stage. And obviously I'm nowhere near being able to get to the luckshit cube rush. That level must be so unfun to deal with.

At first I started with Type C like BGR. I beat the first stage on my first try. On Bubble Stage with Type C the key is keeping your laser firing forever by not letting it get too long. The laser reload time only happens when your laser reaches a certain length, if you block that length by shooting it against a wall (or bubbles) it will fire forever, as well as causing plenty of lag to deal with everything else. The boss is handled the same way, shoot the laser into the eye without it having to reload.

Unfortunately I got stuck on Big Core Mk. III with Type C. I could never beat it. The two or three times I timed it out (harder than it sounds) Moai stage rapes you because the moai ion rings are super powered, they block lasers and cut through all shields and force fields immediately.

So I switched to Type B. Stage 1 is the same. On Bubble Stage you use the combined power of ripple laser, spread bomb, and 4 options to destroy everything in the way.

Big Core Mk. III is handled by destroying the back core first. It starts spamming lasers only when the front two are destroyed. If you destroy the back core first (you have to destroy all the back barriers to do this) then you can safely destroy the front two only dodging the cross lasers.

Type B is the only type I can beat the moai boss with. Use tailgun and memorize the attack order. This boss needs to be destroyed as quickly as possible.

Cell stage is easy. Just don't shoot the regenerating walls too quickly or the regenerate pattern will become completely random and out of order, making crossing through a gamble.

Fire stage, abuse lag and dodge. Not much else to say.

Plant stage is a freebie.

Crystal stage, pray to god. If you can read Japanese this page may have the cube pattern deciphered.


Save states will not help you on Crystal Stage, as the cube random seed is determined before entering the stage the first time, so if you make a save state you will get the same cube patterns, which does not help when you do not know what cube set you will get.

Final stage, make save states and practice.

[BIL]

It's Wait level 2. Still impressive though.

Bah, when it's only 1 of 3 full clears on Youtube it's impressive no matter what the setting.

Yep, I knew about his Wait Level 2 1CC. Alamone has had several impressive shooter runs uploaded on YT for years now.

[Seahawk]

Fudge, my bad, I missed the "No Wait" part .

[Plasmo]

Well, all the good parts are things that Gradius II already did, and everything it adds that is new is basically terrible. Gradius III and IV are definitely the 'dark ages' of the Gradius series (and I am personally not a huge fan of II either). Good thing Parodius was there to pick up the slack.

Err, Parodius isn't really significantly easier than Gradius III?

[Drum]

Well, all the good parts are things that Gradius II already did, and everything it adds that is new is basically terrible. Gradius III and IV are definitely the 'dark ages' of the Gradius series (and I am personally not a huge fan of II either). Good thing Parodius was there to pick up the slack.

Err, Parodius isn't really significantly easier than Gradius III?

Sorry, I meant the series in general, not the first one - and I was just talking about overall quality as opposed to difficulty, which isn't my major problem with GIII (certainly the best Parodius games are easier than GIII though)

[Sumez]

The Parodius games are way easier than Gradius III. Or at least tend to be more fair.
I can't 1cc any of them, but even with unlimited credits, G3 is pretty much impossible to me.

[Aquas]

Serious business. Gradius III 101 at Tokyo Japan. >_> <_< >_> lol

[Lance Boyle]

I can't 1cc any of them, but even with unlimited credits, G3 is pretty much impossible to me.

Wait, doesn't Gradius III not allow continues?

[Chaos Phoenixma]

I think the SNES Version has them, but it's been a while since I last played that version.

Oh, and I think Gradius and Gradius III are the only Gradius games worth playing. I don't like II or IV.

[Ruldra]

Save states will not help you on Crystal Stage, as the cube random seed is determined before entering the stage the first time, so if you make a save state you will get the same cube patterns, which does not help when you do not know what cube set you will get.

Yep, that's as far as I got. Found out the hard way you can't practice via savestates, so I got stuck. Building a cube shield always goes wrong with me at some point.

Crystal stage, pray to god. If you can read Japanese this page may have the cube pattern deciphered.

If the cube seed is random how did they figure it out? If the PS2 version is any indication, there might be over 20 different cube patterns.

[Frederik]

Well, all the good parts are things that Gradius II already did, and everything it adds that is new is basically terrible. Gradius III and IV are definitely the 'dark ages' of the Gradius series (and I am personally not a huge fan of II either). Good thing Parodius was there to pick up the slack.

Err, Parodius isn't really significantly easier than Gradius III?

Sorry, I meant the series in general, not the first one - and I was just talking about overall quality as opposed to difficulty, which isn't my major problem with GIII (certainly the best Parodius games are easier than GIII though)

Right now I´m absolutely in love with the Parodius series, so I couldn´t agree more. Granted, they go for a very different feeling, but the play mechanics are pretty similar.

Gradius III is not only way too hard, but that bubble stage is absolute bullshit level design, and I never really played much after that since I am too annoyed with that game when I reach that point.

Out of all the Gradius games, I only like Gradius Gaiden, which has very nice level design, fantastic music and is actually fun to play, with the editable powerup bar, which adds much more flexibility to the game. It´s weird that this never got released as an arcade game.

[DEL]

Ruldra wrote;

Yep, that's as far as I got. Found out the hard way you can't practice via savestates, so I got stuck. Building a cube shield always goes wrong with me at some point.

You did well to get that far. We were playing it in the arcade and had no point of reference when we first came across the cube rush. But we did figure out that we had to make a cube shield and made it work more often than not.
But this game is a sick puppy. It then throws a fairly nasty Boss Rush at you on ST10, then as I mentioned before, it turns the lights out in a laser grid, which is as far as we got at the time.
My friend KAC went back to it many years later on the PS2 and finally got the 1CC.

A revenge game like the Japanese Tatsujin Oh.
It won't appeal to people who are used to the modern 'shorter' games. Stage 3 is way to long and boring

[Seahawk]

If the cube seed is random how did they figure it out? If the PS2 version is any indication, there might be over 20 different cube patterns.

Look at the top right of the picture.


Under the 2P score you can see two lines, "SEED" and "REMAIN". These two lines are not visible in the game. My guess is that they're running a debug board, this could even be an official Konami event. Seed is just the random seed, remain I would guess is how many cubes are left. You get 100 cubes for normal difficulty and up, and ~35 or so on easy, so that counter is useless really.

The PS2 port gives you two settings to adjust the cube attack with, your ship speed and something called level.
The cube pattern is still random even if you pick the same level.
So with that known and thanks to this picture I think that adjusting the level is directly adjusting the rank value for the game. So rank ranges from 0-32 for Gradius III.

Thanks to this picture the cube attack mechanic becomes a little clearer. The cubes enter the screen on one of five lines. I tested this on my own Gradius III run and it was like clockwork. As the attack progresses the cubes start to vary on their entry points, but by the time they do you're either dead or safe, so that doesn't matter.
The Jpn text in the pic is also supporting that idea.

.....wtf am I doing? I beat this game already, why I am concerned with this >_>;.

The Parodius games are way easier than Gradius III. Or at least tend to be more fair.

Is there some trick to playing Parodius games? It seems that no matter how I play them the games eventually go crazy with insane bullet and enemy speeds.
For example on Parodius Da, I can playthrough the first two levels with pretty much no power ups, while constantly hitting the "?!" power down. By stage 4 the game is burying me with bullets. And with only two extends I don't last very long =/.

[bcass]

Yeah lets turn this off topic! Today i decided to buy a Roland Mt-32 sound card. Figured you can actually hook this piece of 1987 hardware to a sharp X68k and play gradius with music sounding like that.
I just had an ear orgasm!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vOWA2mf3Bs

The ultimate Gradius II soundtrack recording is the PC Engine red book Roland Sound Space recording. The X68K version does have some nice loading music unique to it though.

[Evilmaxwar]

Yeah lets turn this off topic! Today i decided to buy a Roland Mt-32 sound card. Figured you can actually hook this piece of 1987 hardware to a sharp X68k and play gradius with music sounding like that.
I just had an ear orgasm!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vOWA2mf3Bs

The ultimate Gradius II soundtrack recording is the PC Engine red book Roland Sound Space recording. The X68K version does have some nice loading music unique to it though.

I think this special record of the x68k version is more pleasing to me than the pce redboook For some reason though it feels more magical to me when the music is coming out of actual hardware synths. One of those silly old-school obsession i guess. It was recorded with Rolant CM-500 apparently.

For the last 4 days i could not stop whistling Gradius tunes all day long, its gotten obsessive. Im in the process of acquiring all sorts of vintage roland sound cards for my retro-gaming and music production hobbies. Always wanted to do that, its gonna be sooo awesome. I also cant wait to listen and play Granada x68k on those. Its one of my favorite game on the MD.

[bcass]

That X68K rendition sounds like MIDI (in fact, it almost certainly is some sort of MIDI if you can route the sound through different sound devices). There's less complexity to some parts of the X68K versions. The PCE version is just an enhancement of the PCB version. The PCB version is almost certainly not MIDI, hence the other versions sounding like rough approximations rather than being accurate note for note. I used to play arcade Gradius II religiously (it was one of my first 1CCs back when it first came out in the arcades) so I can instantly recognise when approximations are being used for note data instead of the original data.