DVDO EDGE - How it performs

[Fudoh]

@BuckoA51: on the two Castle of Ilussion screenshots the Gefen definitely looks better. The sharpening on the Edge is too aggressive and the overall picture looks more like S-Video than RGB. On my 50Pro I can compensate this a bit by applying negative Detail- und Edge Enhancement, but on the Edge you unfortunately can't while you're in gamemode.

Nevertheless, you should be happy that you don't mind the differences

[Konsolkongen]

Hey one thing that confuses me about my current XRGB-3 > XRGB-2+ > EDGE setup. When playing MVS on the 2+ the picture is shifted too far to the right. I can't change the position on the EDGE even though the Pan menu is accessible. If I change to H-pos setting on the 2+ to center the image the colors gets fucked up. What's up with that?

[Fudoh]

That's kinda normal behavior. The PAN function is usually used after applying overscan or zoom. If you try to shift the picture without this you see this behaviour (colors messed up). I know that I stress this too much, but that's the reason why I use an Extron interface in between. This way you can center the picture beforehand (and also get rid of the flickering at the bottom of the MD's signal).

[fagin]

@BuckoA51: on the two Castle of Ilussion screenshots the Gefen definitely looks better. The sharpening on the Edge is too aggressive and the overall picture looks more like S-Video than RGB. On my 50Pro I can compensate this a bit by applying negative Detail- und Edge Enhancement, but on the Edge you unfortunately can't while you're in gamemode.

Nevertheless, you should be happy that you don't mind the differences

Jesus.... you must have eyesight equal to the Hubble Telescope if you can see the "sharpness" difference in those two images!

[fagin]

Certainly when upscaling the XRGB3's output I struggle to see the difference between Edge and Gefen:-

When you say "upscaling the XRGB3's output" are you referring to the XRGB doing the scaling up in these examples.

[Konsolkongen]

That's kinda normal behavior. The PAN function is usually used after applying overscan or zoom. If you try to shift the picture without this you see this behaviour (colors messed up). I know that I stress this too much, but that's the reason why I use an Extron interface in between. This way you can center the picture beforehand (and also get rid of the flickering at the bottom of the MD's signal).

Right, now if I could only find my remaining two BNC to RCA adaptors that came with the Optoma I could try this easily. This is a 2+ problem, right?

I don't mind the flickering in the MegaDrive signal

EDIT:

This is a 2+ problem, right?

No it's not. If I'm using the Extron to position the image to the left the colors gets messed up too. WTF?

EDIT2: Same thing if I position the XRGB-3 picture to the left with the Extron...

[Konsolkongen]

Perhaps I should just run the Gefen through the EDGE? Running the Gefen in underscan mode solves the tearing and stuttering. I should be able to zoom the image with the EDGE again to proper size, something my TV cannot...

Problems with this is:

Increased lag?
A little bit more stuttering on MVS
I can't do EDGE > HDfury > SLG3000 > Gefen

[Konsolkongen]

Damn this looks 1000 times better with the Gefen in chain. Perhaps I can keep the Gefen connected and still use it as output if I add a HDMI and VGA matrix...? Or I could just get another Gefen... :p

[fagin]

Damn this looks 1000 times better with the Gefen in chain. Perhaps I can keep the Gefen connected and still use it as output if I add a HDMI and VGA matrix...? Or I could just get another Gefen... :p

You're losing me!

What is the chain you are referring to with the Gefen?
What is the chain you say it is 1000 times better than?

[BuckoA51]

The sharpening on the Edge is too aggressive and the overall picture looks more like S-Video than RGB.

That's going a bit far isn't it? I actually prefer the Gefen's upscaling too, but not that much that I would worry about it.

When you say "upscaling the XRGB3's output" are you referring to the XRGB doing the scaling up in these examples.

It's going XRGB3(B1)->Edge->TV

[Konsolkongen]

Damn this looks 1000 times better with the Gefen in chain. Perhaps I can keep the Gefen connected and still use it as output if I add a HDMI and VGA matrix...? Or I could just get another Gefen... :p

You're losing me!

What is the chain you are referring to with the Gefen?
What is the chain you say it is 1000 times better than?

Totally understandable, reading it back it doesn't make sense to me either I was going to draw up a setup of the Gefen, Edge, 2x Matrix combo but forgot all about it

The chain that looks 1000 times better is XRGB-3 > Gefen > EDGE.

[fagin]

The sharpening on the Edge is too aggressive and the overall picture looks more like S-Video than RGB.

That's going a bit far isn't it? I actually prefer the Gefen's upscaling too, but not that much that I would worry about it.

When you say "upscaling the XRGB3's output" are you referring to the XRGB doing the scaling up in these examples.

It's going XRGB3(B1)->Edge->TV

What settings have you got on the EDGE then? That image from the XRGB->EDGE looks crystal clear in that photo.

[Fudoh]

That's going a bit far isn't it? I actually prefer the Gefen's upscaling too, but not that much that I would worry about it.

I wouldn't worry about it either (and actually don't), since the result will also be same: some machines are better this one kind of signal, while others are better with other signals. And if you pursue to use the best existing processor for each and every single source, you end up with a bunch of machinery chained up so it gets so hard to use them that it's no fun anymore.

For example I use the XRGB-3's signal directly into my TV although I have all the other processors sitting around it and although I have the 640 vs 720 pixel phase recognition problem using it this way. Nevertheless it's just easier than anything else....

[Konsolkongen]

After a bit of switching back and forth between XRGB-3 > EDGE and XRGB-3 > Gefen@1080p > EDGE, I must admit that the difference isn't that big a deal after all. I shouldn't make these claims when I'm tired... I think I've been put off by the blurryness of the XRGB-3 OSD menu.

Sure there is ringing but really not enough to notice it when playing. It's a little bit softer than with the Gefen but what the hell... The ringing on bright objects are the most noticeable right now and once I add scanlines it's not really a problem.

Anyway the scroll and checkerboard tests in Artemio's 240p test suite on the MegaDrive looks very nice, no problem with uneven pixel on the EDGE. That's a big plus.

XRGB-3 > EDGE:

Color Space: YPbPr ...? That can't be right? Is that because it sees the VGA signal as 480p (which is a good thing)?

Another positive thing about the EDGE. The colors are much better with XRGB-3 > EDGE > TV than my old XRGB-3 > Gefen > TV setup. I think that's caused by the way my TV handles a DVI input because the XRGB-3 > Gefen > EDGE > TV also looked better than ever, colorvise.

So yeah... to sum it up all my posts today are useless.

I do need to figure out how to shift the 2+ image a few pixels to the left without fucking up the colors though...

[fagin]

The EDGE see's the XRGB-2+ as a VGA input on my set-up?!

[Konsolkongen]

That picture is taken with the XRGB-3 in use. But I just checked and it says 480p with the 2+ also.

[fagin]

That picture is taken with the XRGB-3 in use. But I just checked and it says 480p with the 2+ also.

You using a DSUB to FIVE Phono's to the EDGE, plugged into the bottom component inputs?

[Fudoh]

Color Space: YPbPr ...? That can't be right? Is that because it sees the VGA signal as 480p (which is a good thing)?

was just wondering about this as well when seeing the screenshot.

When fagin's Edge says VGA it means that the signal is interpretated as 640x480 while on your Edge it's seen as 480p (=720x480). If fagin changes his CRTsync setting on the 2+ it should say 480p as well.

Still I don't understand why it says YPbBr colorspace instead of RGB, but I wouldn't worry about it as long as the colors are correct.

[BuckoA51]

One thing I never figured out is what the "Output Frame Lock" setting is actually supposed to do on the DVDO Edge. If I have this set to "unlock" 1080p sources get that white line streak across them sometimes. However, if I have it set to "Auto Lock" I frequently find that I have to change it to "Unlock" to get my XRGB3 to work without the dreaded streaky lines.

[Fudoh]

Unlocked 1080p output does output at broadcast standard specs which is 59.94Hz EXACTLY. Videogames do unfortunately output at roughly 60Hz only, ranging from 59.1Hz (MVS) over 59.94 (PS2), 60Hz (SNES) up to 60.1Hz.

If you lock the output the input refresh is taken over to the output "locking" both the input and the output to each other. This way no framerate conversion is done and you don't lose any frames (nor are any doubled).

Best is to have it locked, but then you can run into problems with digital displays. Some TVs only handle 59.94Hz, others accept AND show a wider range and others again convert everything to 59.94 (e.g. 60Hz to 59.94Hz). Now depending on your TV and your source the TV might show tearing when it transforms the framerate. If you unlock the Edge you should never get tearing, but you might get a short stutter here and there.

Actually similar to the XRGB-3's VSync setting.....

[fagin]

Color Space: YPbPr ...? That can't be right? Is that because it sees the VGA signal as 480p (which is a good thing)?

was just wondering about this as well when seeing the screenshot.

When fagin's Edge says VGA it means that the signal is interpretated as 640x480 while on your Edge it's seen as 480p (=720x480). If fagin changes his CRTsync setting on the 2+ it should say 480p as well.
Still I don't understand why it says YPbBr colorspace instead of RGB, but I wouldn't worry about it as long as the colors are correct.

Nope stays at VGA regardless.

[Fudoh]

How do checkerboard patterns on your XRGB/Edge combo show up ? If you don't get any interference, then the Edge sees the signal as 720x480. If you get interference it's 640x480.

With the Edge beta board gone (since the ABT to Simplay Labs transition), if anyone wants the last available firmare (1.62 v143) I can up it somewhere..... (EDIT: http://pms.hazard-city.de/EDGE_162_143.zip )

[fagin]

Sorted it.... you need to enable VD_LOCK as well

[fagin]

What does the latest firmware do Fudoh?

[Fudoh]

Can't remember, sorry - just a few bug fixes probably.

But since the Beta forum has seized to exist I doubt they turn the beta "official" sometime soon.

[BuckoA51]

If you unlock the Edge you should never get tearing, but you might get a short stutter here and there.

It's not tearing I get, when using the XRGB3 a while line flashes across the picture, usually near the bottom, every few seconds if the output is auto-locked. I notice this more when running PAL games forced into 60hz, changing them back again to 50hz solves the problem, even using composite sync from the console. (of course 50hz is not desirable most of the time)

Still at least I can work round it. Videoprocessing can be weird at times.

BTW if any of you hadn't noticed, Silicon Image seems to have bought out DVDO/Anchor Bay Tech.

[Konsolkongen]

With the Edge beta board gone (since the ABT to Simplay Labs transition), if anyone wants the last available firmare (1.62 v143) I can up it somewhere..... (EDIT: http://pms.hazard-city.de/EDGE_162_143.zip )

Cool thanks I'll try it later

Perhaps I get the messed up colors when shifting the VGA picture to the left because the EDGE sees the colors as YPbPr?

I have a few questions about some of the settings, I think they apply for all inputs:

Picture Controls > CUE Correction (Auto, On, Off) - I want this OFF right?
DeInterlacer (Auto, Film, Video) - This should always be Video right?
Settings > Component Inputs (Single Sync, Triple Sync, AGC Disable) - Single sync is obviously the default choice but what is that AGC (Automatic Gain Control)?
Settings > Advanced Controls > Output Color Space (Auto, RGB, YCbCr 422, YCbCr 444) - I have this at Auto.
Settings > Advanced Controls > Output Colorimetry (Auto, ITU BT.601, ITU BT.709) - Auto...?
Settings > Advanced Controls > Output Video Level (Auto, Video, Computer) - Auto
Settings > Advanced Controls > Output Deep Color (Off, Auto, 30-bit, 36-bit) - Auto, What is this?
Settings > Advanced Controls > Input Video Level (Auto, Video, Computer) - Auto
Settings > Advanced Controls > PReP - This stuff is only active when not in game mode, and even then should be disabled, right?

[BuckoA51]

Fudoh is more qualified to answer but yeah, your settings look fine. If you have CUE correction on then the XRGB3's scanlines don't display very well. Output Colorimetry is to do with the fact that SD and HD actually use different colour standards, meaning if you calibrate your set for one system its slightly off for another. Leave that on Auto. I'll leave the others to Fudoh to explain (hopefully) since his understanding is deeper than mine

One question about the Beta firmware, is it possible to re-flash to the release firmware after you flash to the beta?

[Konsolkongen]

Thanks for your input

I took it for granted that you could downgrade as you wish because you can download an older firmware from the DVDO site too. I just updated to the beta firmware and it appears to work fine, but I have only tested with the XRGB-3.

[Fudoh]

One question about the Beta firmware, is it possible to re-flash to the release firmware after you flash to the beta?

yes, you can. Back and forth, just as you like.

If anyone is interested in an older firmware without 240p recognition I can up it as well.

Picture Controls > CUE Correction (Auto, On, Off) - I want this OFF right?

for sources with chroma upsampling error (= older DVD player). Visible on pixelated borders of red.

DeInterlacer (Auto, Film, Video) - This should always be Video right?

for videogames: yes.

Settings > Component Inputs (Single Sync, Triple Sync, AGC Disable) - Single sync is obviously the default choice but what is that AGC (Automatic Gain Control)?

no idea what source would have triple sync. AGC brings the video level to standard 0.7V.

Settings > Advanced Controls > Output Color Space (Auto, RGB, YCbCr 422, YCbCr 444) - I have this at Auto.

auto defaults to what your TVs EDID tells the Edge.
For video (movie) processing this should be set to YV422, since the Edge outputs at 10-bit in 422 while RGB and YV444 are in 8-bit. For videogames you might prefer RGB or YV444 since you get full color resolution. YCbCr 422 for example has a full HD (1920x1080) black/white channel only the the colors are transmitted with half the resolution only, RGB and 444 have full res for all channels. Blu-Rays natively 422, while videogame systems like 360 or PS3 can output in 444. RGB is recommended though since the native dynamic range for videogames is 0-255 while all YCbCr color spaces are limited to 16-235. The most important thing about is that your TV has to be set to the same color space. Some TVs will only accept RGB, others only YCbCr, others both, some automatically, others manually.

Settings > Advanced Controls > Output Colorimetry (Auto, ITU BT.601, ITU BT.709) - Auto...?

If you output 720p, 1080i or 1080p then bt.709. If you output 480p then BT.601.

Settings > Advanced Controls > Output Video Level (Auto, Video, Computer) - Auto

will be disabled if you set the output to YV422 or 444. If you use RGB output, set this to computer (=full range 0-255).

Settings > Advanced Controls > Output Deep Color (Off, Auto, 30-bit, 36-bit) - Auto, What is this?

not needed and will only work if the output's set to YV422.

Settings > Advanced Controls > Input Video Level (Auto, Video, Computer) - Auto

only available when the input is (digital) RGB. Set to auto or computer. On the 360 the standard output is Limited range (video), so you have to adjust your 360's output to full range (computer) as well.

Settings > Advanced Controls > PReP - This stuff is only active when not in game mode, and even then should be disabled, right?

PREP (re-interlacing) is for 576/480p outputs from DVD players or 1080p output from settop boxes. This reinterlacers the picture, so the Edge can deinterlace (properly).